Woman Pastors

[Resha Caner]

Scripture clearly teaches that God does not call women to that office. If a woman has that desire it is of her own will and not the will of God.

A classmate of mine in seminary once made a rather profound statement when discussing this issue. He said "Anyone who WANTS this job needs to have their head examined." He is absolutely right!

Well said. I've actually dealt with this issue with men. Just because you're a man doesn't mean you're on the list to get called by God to be a pastor. I know a guy who felt he was called to be a missionary, and then became very upset when the church didn't fund him. Just because someone feels a call does not mean they have a right to demand something from the church. In fact, making the demand is a red flag as to the source of their "call."

With that said, our pastor made some interesting distinctions about the call process that I had never considered before. He distinguished 2 different aspects to a call. First, the person may feel called to serve God. But the second part is that the institution (church, school, etc.) must call the person to serve in a particular job.

So, our school does call female teachers, and I believe those women were called to serve God in that way. The point is, a woman may feel called, but she needs to be sure she's not letting some American liberal views taint what it is she's being called to do.

I suppose the short version of my post would be to say: check out the Lutheran concept of "vocation."

 

[mdseverin]

The reason Bible believing Church bodies do not ordain women is because Scripture clearly teaches that God does not call them to that role and responsibility. It begins with the distinction between male and female roles described in Genesis 3 and Galatians 5, along with the qualifications God gives for the office in 1 Timothy 2 and Titus.

I see where this practice is found in 1 Timothy and the selection of elders in Titus. This answers my question. But I read Galations 5 and there is nothing that I see that talks about a woman's role so it is not "clear."

It might be the way I am reading your post, but your tone sounds very condescending that I am so stupid that I can not see what you say is clearly written. I think I made it very clear that I am here to learn. I hope that I am just reading your post wrong.

 

[mdseverin]

The statements on page 5, the ones that number I think 1-16 are statements that the WELS rejects. We do not believe them to be true since they conflict with what is taught in the Scriptures.

We can use 1 Corinthians 14:34 to support our view because our view is that women are to remain silent when appropriate. We do not silence women in every way in the church. For instance, they can teach Sunday School, they can be a Deaconess, there are ways that they serve in the church that require speaking.

Thank you for the response. DaRev's post brought up 1 Timothy 2 and Titus as well. I can see why this is practice is continued.

When I read the Bible I always have to remind myself to put myself into the biblical time period. The Old Testament especially. For example, when I first read the OT it was very odd to me that God would command the Jews to make all different kinds of animal sacrifice. I also had a very hard time on how they treated woman. But, that's just how it was back then.

So there is something not sitting right with me with this WELS document. The Bible literally says a woman should not speak in church. From my understanding, the WELS document says that because this goes against the rest of the scripture we reject the literal verse, woman can speak, they just can't be the head of the church. So they are making there own interpretation, which is fine. The Bible also says in 1 Corinthians 11:11-12 "Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God." Now I read that and it sounds to me that men and woman cannot be independent of one another, therefore they are equals and only God is above both of them. So is it wrong for a church to use this and interpret it to mean that woman are acceptable to become a pastor? I've already shown that the WELS interpret the Bible and tweaked it so woman can have a voice. Is it really going that much farther to interpret that if we are all equal in God's eyes, it doesn't matter if it is woman or man preaching the word as head of the church? Couldn't those Bible verses forbidding woman subject them to the times they were written? Where woman were really a second class citizen?

Now I know you are going to come back to me and point out the roles that are defined in the Bible for men and woman. But when I read those, the Bible is talking about husbands and wive. I don't believe the Bible says that all men have dominion over all woman.

I'm not here to change your practice. I'm not here to start an argument. But the ELCA is so looked down upon here I'm just seeing if anyone can agree that it's not against God's Word that woman can be pastors.

 

[Zecryphon]

So there is something not sitting right with me with this WELS document. The Bible literally says a woman should not speak in church. From my understanding, the WELS document says that because this goes against the rest of the scripture we reject the literal verse, woman can speak, they just can't be the head of the church.[\quote]

I think you're misunderstanding the document. We never say that a woman remaining silent in church goes against the rest of Scripture. Are you getting this idea from this part of the document?

1. We reject the attempt to define male-female role principles only on the basis of biblical examples of human conduct because doctrine must be drawn from simple, direct statements of God's will.

Read what is written before this. Here it is:

Since we affirm the preceding statements as biblical truths, we maintain that the propositions rejected below are contrary to the Word of God:

The first statement found above, immediately follows this statement by the WELS. The WELS is rejecting the first statement and every other statement as it is these statements that are contradictory in nature to Scripture.

So they are making there own interpretation, which is fine. The Bible also says in 1 Corinthians 11:11-12 "Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God." Now I read that and it sounds to me that men and woman cannot be independent of one another, therefore they are equals and only God is above both of them. So is it wrong for a church to use this and interpret it to mean that woman are acceptable to become a pastor?

Yes it is wrong, based upon these verses here:

1Ti 2:11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

And these verses here:

1Ti 3:1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.
1Ti 3:2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
1Ti 3:3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
1Ti 3:4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive,
1Ti 3:5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?
1Ti 3:6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Ti 3:7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

How can a woman be the husband of one wife? Who must manage the household well according to these verses? Who must not be a recent convert? Who must be well thought of by outsiders? These verses are clearly written to men. God calls only men to the office of overseer of the church, which is the position of pastor.

I've already shown that the WELS interpret the Bible and tweaked it so woman can have a voice.

No, you haven't. You're misunderstanding what is written. Look at the verses in 1 Timothy 2. The woman is not forbidden from speaking at all in church. She is forbidden from teaching a man and having any authority over him. She would have this authority if she were a pastor. She would have this authority if she were allowed to vote on church councils. We in the WELS do as Scripture teaches and do not allow women to hold these positions.

Is it really going that much farther to interpret that if we are all equal in God's eyes, it doesn't matter if it is woman or man preaching the word as head of the church? Couldn't those Bible verses forbidding woman subject them to the times they were written? Where woman were really a second class citizen?

God has made it clear in the Scriptures who is to serve as the head of the church and it isn't a woman. Go back to Genesis and see what is written there about the order of creation. Man was created first and then woman. Why was woman created, to be a helper to the man. Man has authority over woman, woman does not have authority over the man.

1Co 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

Now I know you are going to come back to me and point out the roles that are defined in the Bible for men and woman. But when I read those, the Bible is talking about husbands and wive. I don't believe the Bible says that all men have dominion over all woman.

1 Corinthians 11:3 disagrees with you and that's the word of God as recorded by Paul.

I'm not here to change your practice. I'm not here to start an argument. But the ELCA is so looked down upon here I'm just seeing if anyone can agree that it's not against God's Word that woman can be pastors.

There's a reason the ELCA is looked down upon. Their practices are not in line with Scripture or the Book of Concord, yet they want to call themselves Lutherans. You don't get to be a Lutheran by violating the Confessions of the Lutheran church and Scripture. It takes more to be a Lutheran than just saying you are and putting it on your website. Now if you can find some Scriptures that say a woman can lead a church, I'd love to read them. The Scriptures I've posted, say a man is called to the office of overseer.

 

[mdseverin]

Zecryphon, I guess I am not understanding this document. I still don't. If the Bible says a woman can't have a voice in church, then how can she become a deaconess? Somwhere in all of that the WELS are making a interpretation that woman can have a voice in the church. Even though there is nowhere in the Bible that says they can be. You ask me to show you where it says a woman can be a pastor, show me where she can be a deaconess. The point I'm making is it's not in there and we interpret the Bible based on other passages.

Now you point out 1 Timothy which says a priest is to be "the husband of one wife." It says they should have a wife, then why do Catholics make their priests celibate? If I put myself in biblical times, did any woman have jobs? We live in a world now where woman work and are treated equals. Scripture tells us all over that God loves us all the same. Why can we not interpret to mean both men and woman?

You say man has authority over woman. So I can go up to any woman and demand something from her? Of course not. Genesis is referencing the roles of husband and wife. Same with 1 Corinthians 11:3. The footnotes say husband and wife.

Yes, the ELCA claims to be a Lutheran Church. We do not practice a strict interpretation of the Book of Concord, but it is part of our doctrine. It's not just us that call ourselves Lutheran, but other Lutheran churches all over the world recognize us as a Lutheran church as well.

 

[Zecryphon]

Zecryphon, I guess I am not understanding this document. I still don't. If the Bible says a woman can't have a voice in church, then how can she become a deaconess? Somwhere in all of that the WELS are making a interpretation that woman can have a voice in the church.

From the document on page 3 under the heading of "In the Church":

17. The biblical principle of role relationship applies also to the gatherings of the church. All believers, men and women, will participate at gatherings of worship, prayer, Bible study, and service. The scriptural applications that a woman remain silent (1 Co 14:34) and that a woman should not teach a man (1 Ti 2:11,12) require that a woman refrain from participating in these gatherings in any way which involves authority over men.


18. In church assemblies the headship principle means that only men will cast votes when such votes exercise authority over men. Only men will do work that involves authority over men (1 Co 11:3-10; 14:33-35; 1 Ti 2:11,12).


19. All Christians, men and women, are to use their God-given gifts to serve each other (1 Pe 4:10). Women are encouraged to participate in offices and activities of the public ministry except where the work involves authority over men.

Even though there is nowhere in the Bible that says they can be. You ask me to show you where it says a woman can be a pastor, show me where she can be a deaconess. The point I'm making is it's not in there and we interpret the Bible based on other passages.

1 Peter 4:10 says each person is to use their gifts to serve God. We see from other Scriptures that woman was created to be a helper to man. That's what a Deaconess is, a helper to the pastor who is a man.

Now you point out 1 Timothy which says a priest is to be "the husband of one wife." It says they should have a wife, then why do Catholics make their priests celibate?

I don't know, it wasn't always the case that they should be celibate. That came a few hundred years later. You should probably ask a Catholic or someone who used to be Catholic about that.

If I put myself in biblical times, did any woman have jobs? We live in a world now where woman work and are treated equals. Scripture tells us all over that God loves us all the same. Why can we not interpret to mean both men and woman?

You can interpret it to mean man and woman can hold the office of pastor, if you don't mind being wrong. It's clearly taught in Scripture who is called to the office of pastor.

You say man has authority over woman. So I can go up to any woman and demand something from her? Of course not. Genesis is referencing the roles of husband and wife. Same with 1 Corinthians 11:3. The footnotes say husband and wife.

Creation
1. God created man and woman in His own image. The divine image gave man and woman spiritual equality in their relationship to the Creator (Ge 1:26,27; Col 3:10; Gal 3:28).
2. In love God established distinct male and female responsibilities (Ge 2:7,18,22) for the man and woman to whom He had given spiritual equality. These responsibilities involved headship for man and submission for woman. These roles demonstrated God's unchanging will for the complementary relationship of man and woman with each other. Two New Testament passages attest to this: 1 Co 11:3,8,9 and 1 Ti 2:12,13.
3. God established roles for man and woman in His creative plan before He united them in marriage and before they fell into sin (Ge 2:7,18,22; 1 Co 11:3,8,9). Therefore God's assigned roles apply beyond the marriage relationship and in every period of history.


The Fall
4. All commands of God and all roles established by God are for our good (1 Jn 5:3; Ps 19:8,11). To ignore or reject them harms our relationship with God and with each other (1 Pe 3:7; Eph 6:3; Ro 13:2-4).
5. When they sinned, man and woman lost the image of God and their perfect relationship with their Creator (Ge 5:1-3; Isa 59:2). Man and woman also lost their holy and harmonious relationship with each other (Ge 2:16,17; 3:12,16).

Restoration
6. God loved all men and women so much that He sent and sacrificed His Son to reestablish the holy relationship they once had with Him—Justification (Ro 5:8; 2 Co 5:18,19,21; Eph 4:24; Col 3:10).
7. Men and women enjoy equal status in their reestablished relationship with God when He brings them to faith in Jesus (Gal 3:26-29; Eph 6:9).
8. The restoration of God's image in us is a gradual process which goes on throughout our earthly lives—Sanctification (2 Co 3:18; Eph 4:12-16). The Holy Spirit accomplishes this restoration by the power of the Gospel (Jn 17:17; 1 Th 3:13).

Headship
9. As God restores His image in us, we grow in our ability to live in our God-assigned roles for Jesus' sake (Eph 5:21–6:9; Col 3:18–4:1; 1 Pe 3:5-7).
10. Scripture teaches that headship includes authority (1 Co 11:3,10; Col 1:18; 2:10; Eph 1:22; 1 Ti 2:11,12). Authority should not be used to dominate but to serve others (Mt 20:25-28).
11. Christ exercised His headship with sacrificial love (Eph 5:25), humility (Php 2:5-8), and service (Eph 5:28,29), and asks all believers to carry out their roles of authority in the same way (Mt 20:25-28).
12. In applying the principle of role relationship, the church will emphasize the duties and responsibilities of men. God holds Christian men accountable for the use of the authority He has given them and will grant His blessings when men exercise this authority out of love for Christ (1 Pe 3:7; Col 3:19).
13. Believers in Christ live under His headship with willing submission, respect, obedience, and love toward those in authority (Eph 5:21–6:9).

Yes, the ELCA claims to be a Lutheran Church. We do not practice a strict interpretation of the Book of Concord, but it is part of our doctrine. It's not just us that call ourselves Lutheran, but other Lutheran churches all over the world recognize us as a Lutheran church as well.

Those churches are in error then.

 

[Luther073082]

Zecryphon, I guess I am not understanding this document. I still don't. If the Bible says a woman can't have a voice in church, then how can she become a deaconess? Somwhere in all of that the WELS are making a interpretation that woman can have a voice in the church. Even though there is nowhere in the Bible that says they can be. You ask me to show you where it says a woman can be a pastor, show me where she can be a deaconess. The point I'm making is it's not in there and we interpret the Bible based on other passages.

The bible doesn't directly say that she can be a deaconess but the bible does lay out roles for men and women in the church.

The bible states that it is men who are to hold positions of authority in the church.

A pastor is a position of authority. A deacon or deaconess is a transliteration of the word for "servant". A deacon or deaconess does not hold any particular authority out of their role. They are there to serve the congregation in any way that the pastor (who is the head of the congregation) needs them to serve.

A deaconess may provide Christian counciling, teach children, lead women's bible studies, etc etc. There are a lot of things in the church that do not involve authority over men that a pastor can use the help of a deaconess.

Now you point out 1 Timothy which says a priest is to be "the husband of one wife." It says they should have a wife, then why do Catholics make their priests celibate? If I put myself in biblical times, did any woman have jobs? We live in a world now where woman work and are treated equals.

See now you are accusing us of a teaching which we do not hold. Women are allowed to work. . . My wife works. . . Heck a lot of confessional Lutheran schools employ women as teachers. There is nothing scriptural which teaches that women are forbidden from working outside of the home.

The second thing is you are bringing in worldly standards. Quite frankly we don't care what the world does, we care what God wants. The world can go jump off a cliff for all I care. . . Because honestly in a lot of ways thats what they do.

Scripture tells us all over that God loves us all the same. Why can we not interpret to mean both men and woman?[/

God does indeed love men and women the same. However that equal love does not necessarily indicate equal function. For loving men and women the same, their natural abilities are in fact very disequal. Men he has blessed with greater physical strength, size, and abilities. Women he has blessed with the ability to bear children.

Why should we believe that their roles in the church should always be the same? Especially when the scripture indicates that he did not intend their roles to be the same.

You say man has authority over woman. So I can go up to any woman and demand something from her? Of course not. Genesis is referencing the roles of husband and wife. Same with 1 Corinthians 11:3. The footnotes say husband and wife.

Not every man has authority over every woman. However authority in the church and in the home was ment for men.

In scripture it tells women to be submissive to her husband. . . This is a willing submission that can not be forced but she is told to give because that is what God has asked of her. Not because her husband says "I'm da boss" but because God has asked her to let her husband be the leader and respect him accordingly.

In the church there are those in positions of authority and those positions of authority where ment for men.

The only woman who God has called to be submissive to me is my wife at this point. Equally my responsibility to her is to love her as Christ loved the church... In a self sacrificing way (this is something that men often leave out to try to get what they want and women often leave out when protesting the command.)

And here is the big thing that will blow you away. . . neither command is conditional upon the other. In fact I forget which church father it was. St. John Chyrsostom??? Writing in the 4th or 5th century said in a commentary about this passage something to this effect...

Well, some husband's may ask, "What if my wife does not submit to me?" to which I say "That does not matter. . . love your wife."

Yes, the ELCA claims to be a Lutheran Church. We do not practice a strict interpretation of the Book of Concord, but it is part of our doctrine. It's not just us that call ourselves Lutheran, but other Lutheran churches all over the world recognize us as a Lutheran church as well.

And those Lutheran churchs also pick and choose what they like from the BoC and reject the rest. . . similar to the what they do with scripture.

 

[mdseverin]

See this could go on and on. It's not clear! That's why there are so many different denominations and churches. You point to 1 Peter 4:10, "Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms." I do not see any gender reference in this. If a woman has gift to preach thew Word, shouldn't she use it? You are interpreting this to mean she can be a helper in the church. I interpret this as she can run it.

1 Timothy 2:12 "I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet." Does that mean we shouldn't allow teachers? Let's say you become a "man" at 18, I know I had several woman professors in college. Back in biblical time a "man" came to age a lot younger. Were they never taught by a woman. Did your mother ever teach you anything when you became an adult? Let's use it in the church scenario. You say woman can run Sunday School, can they run bible studies as well? If so, doesn't that open up the window of letting a woman teach a man something?

You're whole argument is that you are right and I am wrong. No where in my posts am I saying you are wrong. Everything you point out the Bible can be interpreted another way if you looked at it another way. I'm not saying anything that is not logical.

 

[mdseverin]

See now you are accusing us of a teaching which we do not hold. Women are allowed to work. . . My wife works. . . Heck a lot of confessional Lutheran schools employ women as teachers.

Please do not think I am accusing you of anything. I was just stating a fact that we live in a world where woman work. Back in biblical time woman did not. I brought this fact up to show that the Bible was written in a different time and that the prejudice of that day could have been influenced in the writing.

 

[Aibrean]

I'd also rather keep my work to my home, but I'm not so fortunate because the world thinks I can do the same as men, even though I wasn't designed to.

 

[mdseverin]

I'd also rather keep my work to my home, but I'm not so fortunate because the world thinks I can do the same as men, even though I wasn't designed to.

This is why ELCA members leave this site. Comments that do not bring anything to the conversation and are only used as a dig. I am not making any kind of condescending comments or illogical statements.

 

[alexnbethmom]

honestly - it seems to me that you are not asking all these questions to learn, but rather to argue.

women are not called to be pastors - period. in our church, women do not lead bible study either - our pastor does.

this does not mean that women can not be a teacher at the local elementary school, or the local high school, or even college or university.

the scriptures have been pointed out, and the question(s) answered.

 

[mdseverin]

honestly - it seems to me that you are not asking all these questions to learn, but rather to argue.

women are not called to be pastors - period. in our church, women do not lead bible study either - our pastor does.

this does not mean that women can not be a teacher at the local elementary school, or the local high school, or even college or university.

the scriptures have been pointed out, and the question(s) answered.

Yes, my initial post was to learn. I got the bible verses that back up why men are pastors. However, as I read these verses and the reasons why they are used, it did not click in my head. I pointed out reasons why it could be interpreted another way.

The name of this site is Christian Forums. The definition of forum: " A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged." That is what I am doing. I am not calling anyone names or being condescending. I am exchanging in free debate.

 

[Aibrean]

You are trying to use cultural circumstances to promote your opinion. I was only adding on to your comment about women in Biblical times having jobs.

 

[Luther073082]

1 Timothy 2:12 "I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet." Does that mean we shouldn't allow teachers? Let's say you become a "man" at 18, I know I had several woman professors in college.

College is not a church. . . a church is not college.

Women are not ment to teach men on the church. Paul's knows his words have no authority outside of the church and he's not claiming any authority outside of the church.

Back in biblical time a "man" came to age a lot younger. Were they never taught by a woman. Did your mother ever teach you anything when you became an adult? Let's use it in the church scenario. You say woman can run Sunday School, can they run bible studies as well? If so, doesn't that open up the window of letting a woman teach a man something?

They can run women's bible studies.

Lets not try to be legalistic about this. . . the bible isn't legalistic. What defines a man and what defines a boy is entirely culturally derived. In Sparta you where not a man until you where 20! And in some ways you could argue the Spartan's didn't consider you a full man until you where 30. . .

You're whole argument is that you are right and I am wrong. No where in my posts am I saying you are wrong. Everything you point out the Bible can be interpreted another way if you looked at it another way. I'm not saying anything that is not logical.

But the problem is that you are stating it as though something influenced the writer. Well what if the writer is God himself, working through the hand of men?

If God authored every word then we can not accuse the writer's of being influenced by the times.

 

[alexnbethmom]

you essentially said that aibrean was being condescending, even though what she said was in no way, shape, or form condescending.....IMO, that is not engaging in free debate, that is being argumentative....

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

.


It seems to ME some feel quite firm in their interpretation of certain verses....


This is a LUTHERAN forum. I'm under the impression that the great majority of Lutheran churches in the world do affirm the possibility of female ordaination, and that they have a different interpretation.


It seems to ME perhaps a helpful approach would be to single out the passages in the New Testament that speak of practices (clothes, whatever) to supply context, then which out of all those each feels specifically addresses ORDINATION. Then we can look at the texts (in Greek if we must) to relay various interpretations.


Would that be reasonable? Helpful?




.

 

[seajoy]

Back in biblical time woman did not. I brought this fact up to show that the Bible was written in a different time and that the prejudice of that day could have been influenced in the writing.

The Holy Spirit is not influenced by any prejudices of the day.

 

[seajoy]

The name of this site is Christian Forums. The definition of forum: " A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged." That is what I am doing. I am not calling anyone names or being condescending. I am exchanging in free debate.

What you are doing is trying to promote false teaching. The very thing I figured was going to happen in this thread.

 

[Zecryphon]

See this could go on and on. It's not clear!

It is clear. You just have to take God at His word and trust that He knows what is best and leave the worldly standards out of this. For the ELCA to support it's position it needs to produce Scripture that clearly says that a woman can hold the office of pastor. 1 Timothy 3 clearly says who is to hold the office of pastor. You're making this harder than it has to be.

That's why there are so many different denominations and churches. You point to 1 Peter 4:10, "Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms." I do not see any gender reference in this. If a woman has gift to preach thew Word, shouldn't she use it? You are interpreting this to mean she can be a helper in the church. I interpret this as she can run it.

Scripture interprets Scripture. If one passage is unclear go read a passage that is clear on the subject. 1 Timothy 3 does well. The creation order in Genesis does well. The fact that the husband is the head over the wife as God has declared does well.

Fine, you interpret it to mean a woman can run a church with zero Scriptural support. There are many Scriptures that teach counter to your interpretation.

1 Timothy 2:12 "I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet." Does that mean we shouldn't allow teachers?

Teachers where? In the church? Women can teach in the church. The WELS forbids a woman from holding any position that gives her authority over a man. In a Sunday School setting with little children she doesn't have any men to teach, so she is allowed to do that. As a Deaconess, if the WELS even has them, I'm not sure we do, then again I'm not sure we don't, she has no authority over a man. She is there to help a man run the church.

Let's say you become a "man" at 18, I know I had several woman professors in college. Back in biblical time a "man" came to age a lot younger. Were they never taught by a woman. Did your mother ever teach you anything when you became an adult? Let's use it in the church scenario. You say woman can run Sunday School, can they run bible studies as well? If so, doesn't that open up the window of letting a woman teach a man something?

Our adherence to God's teaching does not extend to the world. Our adherence to God's teaching is for the church. God gave this teaching for the church. You're taking this teaching farther than it was ever intended to go and using that mistake to justify the current mistake of the ELCA's practice of ordaining women as pastors. As to your question about Bible studies, they can run a women's Bible study. They can not run a mixed Bible study or a Men's Bible Study.

You're whole argument is that you are right and I am wrong. No where in my posts am I saying you are wrong. Everything you point out the Bible can be interpreted another way if you looked at it another way. I'm not saying anything that is not logical.

Wrong, but nice try at starting a fight. My argument is based upon Scripture, yours is not. Yeah you can ignore the Greek and Hebrew and twist Scripture to say anything you want it to. You can take this teaching beyond the church and apply it to the real world and use that as a basis for your position, but this teaching isn't meant for the world at large. It's meant for Christians in the church who are to submit to the will of God and the roles He has assigned to each of them.