saints of this and that (moved from GT)

[Tzaousios]

It is very strange that one would think it appropriate to apply an Enlightenment, scientifically-rational mode of thought to try to (in)validate what is in essence a spiritual, non-rational communication.

Only if truth matters.

Yes, truth matters, but what about the rest of my post that you removed?

 

[revrobor]

For someone who is a reverend, I see a lack of faith here. Why do you limit the work of the Holy Spirit?

You have no evidence to the contrary. My faith gets stronger every day as I approach my 80th birthday.

 

[Dorothea]

First, you say that you get all your teachings from the Bible but, earlier, you told me that some of your teachings are from traditions that are not contained in the Bible. How do you reconcile these two statements?

Because they're both from the same source - the Apostles. So indeed we follow from the Bible - St. Paul says to hold fast to the traditions taught both orally and written. We do this.

I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. I was speaking of doctrines that are based on tradition, not practices within the church.

Do you have any in mind to give me an example?

I understand that. The Bible has never been the sole authority. The question is, is it the highest authority to which all your other authorities submit?

Eh, I'd say it is regarded in a high place. When the bishops got together in confirming what was always taught, they did indeed use many sources because there are many under Holy Tradition that the Church used to sort out (and still do) the truth given to them by Christ through His Apostles - the Scriptures, the writings of the Church Fathers (those taught directly by the Apostles or by those who were taught by the Apostles - their disciples), the liturgical praxis, the councils, and the Creed, and when they come all together, they are lead by the Holy Spirit as He continues to guide the Church until His Second Coming. None of which would contradict that which was written in the Scriptures.

So then God's revelation carries no authority?

I'm saying God's revelation is not just in a book. It was given to His Apostles who gave it then to the Church on Pentacost. All that we know as Dogma was not given to the Church as a written document, but as the revelation from God to His people.

How about Stephen? You consider Stephen to be a saint, don't you?

Ah, and this is where I believe you are confusing physical death and spiritual death. St. Stephen died physically, but is alive in Christ as his spirit and soul live on in Christ.

Doesn't the Bible record Stephen's death after Christ's atonement and resurrection?

It sure does....his physical death. If he died spiritually, he wouldn't be a Saint.

Then where did you get the idea?

There's no "idea" of praying to the "dead." What we follow is St. James and St. Paul on praying for one another.

Christ's atonement was to satisfy God's wrath against us, not to make our physical bodies immortal. Christ was resurrected so that we will be resurrected and, at that time, out physical bodies will be immortal, but not now.

The teaching of satisfying a wrathful God is not a true teaching from the beginning. This teaching was centuries later and is foreign to the EOC. So, from the beginning, we have two different beliefs of Christ's Redemption and Resurrection. This is the crux of the confusion and problem with trying to discuss the issue. Christ died voluntarily on the Cross for us because we were imprisoned in death and no man could overcome this. We sin because we are going to die. The first sin in the garden led to death, for sure, and at that moment, death entered Adam and Eve and the world after the Fall. They were never intended to die. They were created soul, spirit and body as one. The separation of the soul/spirit from the body was the result of death entering. God the Father neither demanded nor requested the Son be crucified for us, but knowing there was no other way to reconcile us back to God the Father, the Son did so voluntarily and in obeying His Father in knowing humans couldn't defeat death. God never asked for a satisfaction for His supposed "wrath." This is a teaching that is incorrect from the EOC's POV.

Here's a writing on it from St. Gregory the Theologian "Now we are on this to examine another fact and dogma, which in my judgment, is very necessary to inquire into. to whom ws that blood offered that was shed for us, and why was it shed? I mean the precious and famous blood of our God and High Priest and Sacrifice. We were detained in bondage by the evil one. Sold under sin, and receiving pleasure in exchange for wickedness. Now, since a ransom belongs only to him who holds in bondage, I ask then to whom was this offered and for what cause? If it was offered to the evil one, what an outrage to say such a thing. If the robber receives ransom not only from God, but a ransom which consists of God Himself and has such a lusterous payment for his tyranny, then it would have been right for Him to have left us alone all together. But if it was offered to God the Father, I ask first how? For it was not by God the Father that we were being oppressed. And next, on what principle did the blood of His only begotten Son delight the Father who would not even receive Isaac when he was being sacrificed by his father, Abraham, but changed the sacrifice by putting a ram in his place. Is it not evident that the Father accepts Him, but neither asked for, that neither asked for the sacrifice, nor demanded it, but on account of the Incarnation, and because humanity must be sanctified by the humanity of God, voluntarily, that He might deliver Himself and overcome the tyrant and draw us to Himself by the mediation of His Son, who also arranged this to the honor of the Father, whom it is clear, He obeys in all things."

How do you know this?

James 5:16 "Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much."

How is God any less able to hear and act on our prayers because we're on Earth?

I don't think anybody said anything about God's not hearing our prayers on earth. God hears all. We were discussing asking others to pray for us.

How are they any more righteous than those made righteous by Christ who are still here on Earth?

They finished the race as St. Paul mentions much, and have reached a fuller if not totally full union with Christ. We are still running the race and transforming and growing spiritually.

Honestly? No.

:o Then I assume you don't ask them to pray for you or your family or friends? I find this some what sad, American, and I don't mean this in a mean way, but truly, do you have faith in God and the prayers of one or two gathering that He hears them? I am not sure I understand. ah, maybe you have a Calvinist view....that everything is already said and done. Is that it?

What verse would that be?


Their words in Rev 6:9-11 is a reaction to the opening of the Fifth Seal, not to prayers from people on Earth.

That is your interpretation, I understand.

There's also this:

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels. 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Do you have any examples of Paul's writings from this time?

I don't know all that the Church possesses, but we do know we follow his writings that say to hold fast to the traditions he taught us orally and written, so the Churches followed this. I don't understand why that is so hard to comprehend.

I'm not here to prove you wrong. I believe we teach a complete and comprehensive view of church history. If you don't, then you're free to not take our classes.

Yes, your doctrine and belief on the wrathful God is a late teaching brought about, not always taught. Yes, I would not be taking the classes (we're probably not even in the same state anyhow ).

The Bible gives an account of Stephen's death.

Yes, his physical death. Are you saying you believe Stephen died spiritually?

 

[Dorothea]

I get in where I fit in


I do agree that this was written in such a way that only those who were meant to understand it (God's chosen) would.



That may be the understanding of the early church, but why is that your understanding? Again, considering that the book of Revelation is heavily symbolic, why would you assume that this single snippet was meant to be taken literal?

Because my interpretation lines up with what was always taught. You should know by now that we rely on those who were light years ahead in the spiritual wisdom area - those who learned from the Apostles or their disciples. There's no reason for me to question their interpretations by thinking my meek ones are better, considering my spiritual maturity isn't even close to theirs. Also, I wouldn't be EO if I didn't believe what my Church, would I?

 

[VolRaider]

My only question is how do the saints hear you? I mean, if I were to right now, start praying to you, for you to pray for me, you wouldn't hear me would you?

Maybe they don't. But even if they didn't, don't you think God would intercede? After all, God is the ultimate one they are praying to in the first place.

 

[Dorothea]

I believe that when Christ restores us to our rightful state that we will indeed see and hear more clearly. That however is not to be until after the second coming, for it is at that time that the mortal shall put on immortality and the corruptible the incorruptible. What you're attributing to those who you believe are in heaven would seem to be difficult to possess considering they don't have bodies.

They are clothed in Christ until they are reunited with their bodies. Yes, I know that's what you believe, Stryder.

 

[Dorothea]

You have no evidence to the contrary. My faith gets stronger every day as I approach my 80th birthday.

Yes, what it is is that we have a different understanding of the Scriptures and God, apparently.

I'm glad that your faith continues to grow, as it should as we are being transformed to closer union with Him.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

why ever ask other believers in Christ to pray for us?
If God can hear all and is all good and knows what we need we do not need people on earth to pray for us either

God is all good, God is all powerful, but Christians have always prayed for eachother and asked other Christians to pray for us as well
Protestants only ask those who are alive on earth to pray for them

We Christians ask "alive" Christians to pray for us because the bible tells us to pray for each other.

James 5:15

Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.​

When we ask our alive Christians to pray for us, we are not praying to them so they can pray to God, we are simply making a request known so we can pray, to God, for each other. When you speak of dead people, you include elements in scripture that we are not told. We know that God hears our prayers...we are not told that dead people hear our prayers.

When praying, we are told that the Holy Spirit makes groaning for us for we do not know what to pray for. Our prayers are going from our hearts to God's ears. God tells us that only He knows our hearts, so what is being prayed to Him, only He knows. Yes, sometimes we share our prayers by praying out loud, but that doesn't mean, that's the only things that you're saying, your heart could also be praying more things that others don't know, for only God need to know.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

What's the scriptural evidence saying that they can't?

We don't pray to dead Christians by default because we can't find a scripture that says "Don't pray to dead Christians". We don't pray to dead Christians because we have Scripture that tells us that prayer is to God.

Genesis 20:17
So Abraham prayed to God; and God healed Abimelech, his wife, and his female servants. Then they bore children;

Judges 16:28
Then Samson called to the LORD, saying, “O Lord GOD, remember me, I pray! Strengthen me, I pray, just this once, O God, that I may with one blow take vengeance on the Philistines for my two eyes!”


2 Samuel 7:27
For You, O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, have revealed this to Your servant, saying, ‘I will build you a house.’ Therefore Your servant has found it in his heart to pray this prayer to You.

2 Chronicles 7:14
if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

Nehemiah 1:5-6
5 And I said: “I pray, LORD God of heaven, O great and awesome God, You who keep Your covenant and mercy with those who love You and observe Your commandments, 6 please let Your ear be attentive and Your eyes open, that You may hear the prayer of Your servant which I pray before You now, day and night, for the children of Israel Your servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel which we have sinned against You. Both my father’s house and I have sinned.

Job 33:26
He shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,He shall see His face with joy, For He restores to man His righteousness.

Psalm 5:1-3
1 Give ear to my words, O LORD,
Consider my meditation.
2 Give heed to the voice of my cry,
My King and my God,
For to You I will pray.
3 My voice You shall hear in the morning, O LORD;
In the morning I will direct it to You,
And I will look up.

Psalm 42:7-8
7 Deep calls unto deep at the noise of Your waterfalls;
All Your waves and billows have gone over me.
8 The LORD will command His lovingkindness in the daytime,
And in the night His song shall be with me—
A prayer to the God of my life.


Psalm 66:20
Blessed be God,Who has not turned away my prayer, Nor His mercy from me!

Daniel 6:9-11
10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went home. And in his upper room, with his windows open toward Jerusalem, he knelt down on his knees three times that day, and prayed and gave thanks before his God, as was his custom since early days.
11 Then these men assembled and found Daniel praying and making supplication before his God.

Daniel 9:3
Then I set my face toward the Lord God to make request by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth, and ashes.

Matthew 6:8-13
8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

Acts 2:10
a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always.

Acts 16:25
But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them.

Romans 1:10
Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved

1 Cor. 11:13
Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?

Phil. 4:6
Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God...

1 Thes. 1:2
We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers
​

There are tons more examples in Scripture but I don't expect you to read all those verses that I posted. I just wanted to show you that by default, we pray to God, because those are the examples that we see, that prayer is for God.

 

[Tzaousios]

We don't pray to dead Christians by default because we can't find a scripture that says "Don't pray to dead Christians". We don't pray to dead Christians because we have Scripture that tells us that prayer is to God.

The Scripture does not say that you must believe in something called the Trinity, does it? Yet, I am willing to bet that you believe in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Why do you keep repeating the canard of "dead Christians" when you have been told that the saints have taken repose in glory with the risen Christ?

It is beginning to seem as though you think that every position you hold must be defined automatically the opposite of whatever Roman Catholics believe. It is clothed in the rhetoric of "what Scripture says/does not say," but it also must oppose Roman Catholicism on all accounts.

There are tons more examples in Scripture but I don't expect you to read all those verses that I posted. I just wanted to show you that by default, we pray to God, because those are the examples that we see, that prayer is for God.

Again, according to the concept of the intercession of the saints, Christians do not pray to the saints as if they are gods equal to or above the divine essence of God. Thus, it would be a good idea if you stopped, unless it is your intention to scandalize Roman Catholics.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Are we going to get into the first resurrection mentioned in Revelation again? This is the one regarding the souls after they physically die on earth. Their bodies rest lifeless in the tomb while their souls/spirits go to be with Christ or not.

Not quite sure what you are getting at. The Scriptures tell us that the dead shall rise first and then be judged and than those who are still living will be judged come judgment day and that they will receive an eternal reward or punishment. It doesn't sound like that automatically go to heaven or hell when dead. Paradise and Hades, yes, not heaven and hell.

As far as the story of the rich man and Abraham, this is a perfect illustration of how people can interact in Paradise or Hades. It shows even in that, the rich man asking Abraham to intercede for his brothers. Abraham's response is not about not hearing. It's about those who have ears to hear, let them hear, but these brothers did not listen to Moses and the prophets, so why would they listen to him? This is the point on that issue.

Well....seeing as the dead (Abraham, rich man and Lazarus) only interacted with each other whom are dead, I don't think we can assume that they can interact with the living. And in fact, when the rich man asks Abraham to bring someone to interact with the dead, the answer was no because we have Moses and the prophets and after by the grace of God, we have the New Testament as well.

Again, is there some reason why you would think, especially after talking about this story Christ Himself told, that for some reason, people who physically die on this earth and go on to Paradise and are in the presence of God still have the limitations of hearing, seeing, and understanding that those on earth have?

Who said that by being in the presence of God gives them the ability to hear, see and understanding things that are happening on earth? Scripture doesn't teach us those things.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

The Scripture does not say that you must believe in something called the Trinity, does it? Yet, I am willing to bet that you believe in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Scripture uses the word "Godhead", and I most certainly believe that there is a Father, Son and Holy Spirit because Scripture teaches so. People call it the Trinity and while I don't use that word, I understand the concept is biblical. Praying to dead Christians, no matter what name you give them, is not a concept seen in Scripture.

Why do you keep repeating the canard of "dead Christians" when you have been told that the saints have taken repose in glory with the risen Christ?

To clarify when I'm speaking of those who are dead, so as to not mix when I say Christians when I mean those who have passed on.

It is beginning to seem as though you think that every position you hold must be defined automatically the opposite of whatever Roman Catholics believe. It is clothed in the rhetoric of "what Scripture says/does not say," but it also must oppose Roman Catholicism on all accounts.

I use the Scripture in what I believe and try and back up my beliefs by quoting Scripture in it's context--I try at least. Sorry, if it seems that it goes against Roman Catholicism but I don't study RC and I don't plan on it, so I don't know what all their beliefs entail...but if someone makes a thread and I respond to it, I'm going to state what I see in scripture and not what anyone taught me...unless of course, that's what the question in the thread is asking.

Again, according to the concept of the intercession of the saints, Christians do not pray to the saints as if they are gods equal to or above the divine essence of God. Thus, it would be a good idea if you stopped, unless it is your intention to scandalize Roman Catholics.

Doesn't matter the reasons why or why not, the fact that people pray to them in the first place doesn't make sense when the examples we have in scripture are those praying directly to God.

Edit: wording...when I re-read it, I realize that I was calling you a Catholic.

 

[Tzaousios]

Scripture uses the word "Godhead", and I most certainly believe that there is a Father, Son and Holy Spirit because Scripture teaches so.

No, you assume that "Godhead" means all three person of the Trinity and choose to believe it.

People call it the Trinity and while I don't use that word, I understand the concept is biblical.

I do not understand why you have a problem using the word "Trinity." Is it because it smacks of Catholicism? You know, God used men who were members of the catholic, Apostolic church to preserve the Scriptures which you use to the exclusion of everything else.

Praying to dead Christians, no matter what name you give them, is not a concept seen in Scripture

There is that derisive term "dead Christians" again. What about the Scriptural justification that others have given you? It seems you tossed out an interpretation that has been held for over a millenium of history in favor of your own, which cannot be more than a decade or so old. How do you justify this?

To clarify when I'm speaking of those who are dead, so as to not mix when I say Christians when I mean those who have passed on.

What? It does not make sense as to what distinction you are making. The saints who have reposed in glory with the risen Christ are saints that have died and passed on from this earthly life.

I use the Scripture in what I believe. Sorry, if it seems that it goes against Roman Catholicism but I don't study RC and I don't plan on it, so I don't know what all your beliefs entail

Thus, you rely on an interpretation of one and eschew over 2,000 years of Christian biblical interpretation as if it is nothing.

If you do not and have not studied Roman Catholicism, why do you feel knowledgable enough to attack it and perpetuate the same old anti-Catholic stereotypes?

but if someone makes a thread and I respond to it, I'm going to state what I see in scripture and not what anyone taught me...unless of course, that's what the question in the thread is asking.

A standard rhetorical construction that is constantly lobbed at non-Protestant Christians is that the perpetrator reads and regurgitates "the plain meaning of Scripture" while everyone else is entirely beholden to "false teachers." I do not believe for a moment that you have not absorbed certain interpretations from other people within your church circle.

Doesn't matter the reasons why or why not, the fact that you pray to them in the first place doesn't make sense when the examples we have in scripture are those praying directly to God.

It most certainly does matter. You have been told that they do not "pray to" "dead saints" on a number of occasions. Yet, you keep perpetuating the stereotype that the (dead) saints are being elevated to equality with or above God. What else is an observer supposed to think other than that you wish to scandalize Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christians?

 

[daydreamergurl15]

No, you assume that "Godhead" means all three person of the Trinity and choose to believe it.

Yes, silly me for thinking that these verses meant that I assumed it mean all three, instead of the collection plus other verses incorporate all three--Genesis 1 is another good one:

Romans 1:18-21
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

---Just so we're clear, if you wonder how I get all 3 in the Godhead in these verses, look at Genesis 1:1-2 (God--Spirit of God), 26 and John 1:1-5 (Jesus), all 3 states that they were all there during the creation of the world.....

Col. 2:8-10
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.​

You see what those verses did there? In Romans, the Godhead is attributed to God the Father (actually all 3 of them if you think about it). In Colossians Godhead is attributed to God the Son. And we have other verses that connects the Holy Spirit with the Godhead.

I do not understand why you have a problem using the word "Trinity." Is it because it smacks of Catholicism? You know, God used men who were members of the catholic, Apostolic church to preserve the Scriptures which you use to the exclusion of everything else.

Did I not tell you that I have not studied Catholicism? To be honest, I thought that word "Trinity" was a Baptist word but it doesn't matter. I don't use that word--at least I try not to. Our church doesn't use the word Trinity when speaking about God as the Father, Son and Spirit, we use the words God or Godhead.

There is that derisive term "dead Christians" again. What about the Scriptural justification that others have given you? It seems you tossed out an interpretation that has been held for over a millenium of history in favor of your own, which cannot be more than a decade or so old. How do you justify this?

What scriptural justification are you talking about? The Scriptures itself use the phrase "dead in Christ" in 1 Thes 4:16. I used the phrase "dead Christian" to clarify to the reader which Christian I was speaking of--the physically alive ones or the physically dead ones. Especially since we're talking about praying...yes praying to those Christians whom are physically dead.

What? It does not make sense as to what distinction you are making. The saints who have reposed in glory with the risen Christ are saints that have died and passed on from this earthly life.

I'm speaking of the physically dead Christians. Because the word Christian, in my post, was being used for the physically alive and the physically dead, I specifically used the phrase "dead Christian" so that people would know that I speak of the physically dead ones.

Thus, you rely on an interpretation of one and eschew over 2,000 years of Christian biblical interpretation as if it is nothing.

If I say that's not the case, are you going to even believe me?

If you do not and have not studied Roman Catholicism, why do you feel knowledgable enough to attack it and perpetuate the same old anti-Catholic stereotypes?

I'm getting the feeling that you either had a bad day or that you didn't read the firsts 6 threads of this post. Because I didn't stereotype anybody.

A standard rhetorical construction that is constantly lobbed at non-Protestant Christians is that the perpetrator reads and regurgitates "the plain meaning of Scripture" while everyone else is entirely beholden to "false teachers." I do not believe for a moment that you have not absorbed certain interpretations from other people within your church circle.

I have had many conversations here with people just speaking of what they see in scripture. I have always tried to back up my beliefs with what I have seen in scripture. If you don't believe me, take a look at my posts, otherwise, you can refute me by showing me in scripture.

It most certainly does matter. You have been told that they do not "pray to" "dead saints" on a number of occasions. Yet, you keep perpetuating the stereotype that the (dead) saints are being elevated to equality with or above God. What else is an observer supposed to think other than that you wish to scandalize Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christians?

The Catholics/Orthodox, in this thread, have said that they do not pray to statues and was correcting that misunderstanding. If you want to assume that I'm stereotyping Catholics, take a look at posts #: 3, 10, 13, 17, 28, 29 the post you must be thinking of that was trying to "correct people that they don't pray to saints must be post #32, because we have 6 posts before post #32, telling us that they pray to saints.

Edit: Because of my harsh tone.

 

[LOCO]

INTERCESSION.... the sea of glass the saints at the throne of God, Jesus the new High Priest.....why are their prayer chains, prayer groups, why do you ask pastor to pray or go to a healing meeting?

Ask some one who is at the throne to put in a good word for you...,which probably do anyway... mat 7.7-9, the function of the high priest in the old covenant, to make sacrifice for the people, the day of atonement...

instead of picking up on 1-5% of odd things others do, what about the 95-97% of what we all do, agreement, edify...start doing God's work, Matthew 5 the peace makers, rather than the accuser of the brethren or the seat of the scornful

 

[LOCO]

Yes, silly me for thinking that these verses meant that I assumed it mean all three, instead of the collection plus other verses incorporate all three--Genesis 1 is another good one:s.

Hello daydreamergurl15


Just another POV that has not been discussed.

For many Christians praying/singing is their highest form of worship.
For Catholics the Mass is the highest form of worship.

For Catholics prayer is mainly a tool of communication between heaven and earth. Saints are those that are physically dead but still spiritually alive in Christ. Catholics do not view themselves as being separated from those in Heaven. There is a constant flow of communication via prayer, visions, miracles and visits e.g. Jesus visiting Sister Faustina

Many non-Catholics become outraged with the notion that we are praying to someone other than God because for them that is their highest form of worship.

We all pray to God but we believe the more people you have praying for you, the better. And so we ask the Saints who have completed the journey to pray for us.

 

[Tzaousios]

Yes, silly me for thinking that these verses meant that I assumed it mean all three, instead of the collection plus other verses incorporate all three--Genesis 1 is another good one:

Yes, taking the "collection" of verses together you have the concept of the Trinity.

You see what those verses did there? In Romans, the Godhead is attributed to God the Father (actually all 3 of them if you think about it). In Colossians Godhead is attributed to God the Son. And we have other verses that connects the Holy Spirit with the Godhead.

Yes, I see what happens when one takes the descriptions from a collection of verses. One can assume that "Godhead" refers to the three members of the Trinity.

I don't use that word--at least I try not to. Our church doesn't use the word Trinity when speaking about God as the Father, Son and Spirit, we use the words God or Godhead.

This sounds very strange to me. What is wrong with using the technical term "Trinity" which has been passed down to us through history? It is a perfectly orthodox term.

What scriptural justification are you talking about?

The Scriptures which others gave as justification for their belief. I take it you view your interpretation to be better than theirs.

I'm speaking of the physically dead Christians. Because the word Christian, in my post, was being used for the physically alive and the physically dead, I specifically used the phrase "dead Christian" so that people would know that I speak of the physically dead ones.

Then why must one keep thinking that they pray to dead people? They are not propping corpses or bones up and bowing down to them as some think they do to statues. Stop perpetuating the stereotype.

If I say that's not the case, are you going to even believe me?

Sure, if you will be specific about what it is exactly you value from early Christian theological interpretations.

I'm getting the feeling that you either had a bad day or that you didn't read the firsts 6 threads of this post. Because I didn't stereotype anybody.

When someone attacks Catholics or Orthodox on the doctrine of the intercession of the saints by saying they "pray to dead people," and also when they reject history as being epistemologically valid, it is a stereotype. Don't you think it is a disingenuous request to demand that they follow Sola Scriptura?

I have had many conversations here with people just speaking of what they see in scripture.

Actually, that is very interesting. Did the Holy Spirit happen to lead every single one of them to the correct interpretation of Scripture?

I have always tried to back up my beliefs with what I have seen in scripture. If you don't believe me, take a look at my posts, otherwise, you can refute me by showing me in scripture.

Yes, I understand what this kind of methodology entails. So, between you and me, our Bibles, and the Holy Spirit, whose interpretation will be correct?

What if I show my own Scripture to your Scripture? Which Scripture will prove the other to be incorrect?

The Catholics/Orthodox, in this thread, have said that they do not pray to statues and was correcting that misunderstanding. If you want to assume that I'm stereotyping Catholics, take a look at posts #: 3, 10, 13, 17, 28, 29 the post you must be thinking of that was trying to "correct people that they don't pray to saints must be post #32, because we have 6 posts before post #32, telling us that they pray to saints.

So the Catholics and Orthodox said that they pray to dead people in the same way that they pray to statues?

 

[LOCO]

My only question is how do the saints hear you? I mean, if I were to right now, start praying to you, for you to pray for me, you wouldn't hear me would you?

Hello Stryder,



As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.



The Fifth Seal interpretation of the SDA sect is a 'false doctrine'. The Early Church Fathers have never interpreteted Revelation that way.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

@Tzaousios,
I had my reply and accidently delete it but maybe it was for the better. I have no interest in continuing a conversation of which someone refuse to read my answers but say things I did not say. I replied to almost each one of your points before I accidently deleted it and I really don't feel like retyping it. If you have something specifically to speak to me about in teaching me why it's okay to pray to physically dead Christians in scripture then I'll speak of that, but all the other stuff that was brought up, is just derailing the topic at hand. And quite honestly, I'm tired...

 

[Dorothea]

Not quite sure what you are getting at. The Scriptures tell us that the dead shall rise first and then be judged and than those who are still living will be judged come judgment day and that they will receive an eternal reward or punishment. It doesn't sound like that automatically go to heaven or hell when dead. Paradise and Hades, yes, not heaven and hell.

You are talking about the Final Judgment and His Second Coming when all will reunite with their bodies that are in laying reposed (the bodies) at that time, while the souls are waiting for His Second Coming. These are two different events. We are in the end times - the millennium - between His first and second comings. You are talking about what happens at His Second Coming and Judgment Day - the Final Resurrection, as I explained. The dead (meaning those who've physically died on the earth before His second coming) will arise first and reunite with their bodies, while those still alive on the earth when He comes in Glory to Judge the Living and the dead (again, meaning those who have physically died before His second coming). All souls/spirits will reunite with their bodies in a glorified state at that time. And that is when the final judgment - the separation of the goats and sheep happen. In the meantime, those who are waiting for that time are in Paradise or in Hades. I don't want to get into all the meaning of the supposed "places" of Paradise and Hades. Anyway, I hope that helps to explain where I'm coming from.

Well....seeing as the dead (Abraham, rich man and Lazarus) only interacted with each other whom are dead, I don't think we can assume that they can interact with the living. And in fact, when the rich man asks Abraham to bring someone to interact with the dead, the answer was no because we have Moses and the prophets and after by the grace of God, we have the New Testament as well.

Uh....that's not what the story means, daydreamer. The fact that the rich man away from Paradise in Hades could still talk to Abraham - hear and see him, who is considered in Paradise, is something right there. It also discounts the fact that nobody is conscious after they die physically. What Abraham was saying was that his brothers will not believe. They do not have the ears to hear nor the eyes to see spiritually, so it didn't matter if Moses himself was standing there talking to his brothers, they wouldn't believe him.

Who said that by being in the presence of God gives them the ability to hear, see and understanding things that are happening on earth? Scripture doesn't teach us those things.

We're not legalistic. We don't need to consult documents all the time to realize that when one is in the presence of God, one's faculties are enhanced. Even when one is filled with His Grace for a short period of time, one can experience this. It is so in His Saints through their experience of the Holy Spirit working in them. You think because most spiritual and miraculous personal experiences aren't all accounted for, they cannot be true? You need a book to tell you what or how to experience God? Do you not have a close and loving relationship with Him already? Even with our limitations, do we not feel His Presence? How much more so when there isn't the limitation, but we are there with Him fully when we leave this earth?