saints of this and that (moved from GT)

[patience7]

What does God say about the "dead" whether "saints" or not?

Psalm 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastes 9:5a For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, See the contrast - the living know they shall die but the dead know nothing.

Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished (All feelings and emotions are perished.) neither do they have any portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun. (They do not have any more to do with the living)

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Psalm 104:29,30 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
Which corresponds with: Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

So, I will pray to the Father in Jesus name because then I know that my prayers will be answered. Praying to the dead is just letting your words of petition go out into empty air.

 

[VolRaider]

It may make you feel good but that's fantasy stuff.

So what's the point of going to Heaven if I'm dead? Shoot, I'll just quit going to church and wait for the NFL pregame instead!

 

[VolRaider]

There is no Scriptural evidence to indicate that those who have gone to be with Jesus before us are able to see or hear what is going on here on Earth.

What's the scriptural evidence saying that they can't?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

What's the scriptural evidence saying that they can't?

An interesting rubric....

So, you'd support a dogma that insists as a matter of highest importance and certainty that Mary eats nothing but brutwurst and plays 2 rounds of golf per day because there's no Scriptural evidence to the contrary? That we should wear special underwear because there's no Scriptural evidence to the contrary? That everyone must read exclusively from the King James Version of the Bible because there is no Scriptural evidence to the contrary? Interesting rubric! What is mandated is what Scripture never mentions....





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[Dorothea]

It may make you feel good but that's fantasy stuff.

For someone who is a reverend, I see a lack of faith here. Why do you limit the work of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Dorothea]

There is no Scriptural evidence to indicate that those who have gone to be with Jesus before us are able to see or hear what is going on here on Earth.

I see, so you would rather shut off your brain and heart to the works of God that aren't written and cinched up in a book? Do you think Christ explained everything to His Apostles about the Resurrection that are not explicitly named other than what is said in Acts where St. Luke says Christ spoke much about this to His Apostles, but St. Luke didn't elaborate. So because Luke didn't elaborate, we are to shut off our brains and hearts and think nothing is possible when we leave this earth?

The things He did are not all recorded, and we are to follow both oral and written tradition. But even besides that, are you saying you believe we have limits such as we do here on earth, when we are in the presence of God? What type of limits? Why?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

For someone who is a reverend, I see a lack of faith here. Why do you limit the work of the Holy Spirit?

"With God, ALL THINGS are possible." I think we all agree with that Scripture.
We all have the same faith that such is the case.


However, it does not mean that ERGO all things are true.


Is it POSSIBLE that God put two plates in the ground in upstate New York and Joseph Smith found them? IF you say "no," then I can ask you why you limit the ability of the Holy Spirit and deny the Scripture that ALL THINGS are POSSIBLE for God.


I find your rubric, too, to be odd. That if it's POSSIBLE, ergo it's dogma. You therefore must accept everything in the LDS as dogma (or you deny that all things are POSSIBLE for God). I find your rubric just as strange as the other poster who argues if the Bible never mentions something, THAT is what is a dogmatic fact.





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[Dorothea]

the Gospel according to St.Matthew chapter 2 verse 18
talks about Rachel weeping over the children who were killed

Very true. Why so many limits on the Spirit and how He works in people and when we leave this earth and are in the presence of God? Why would we still have blinders on and ear plugs in?

 

[Dorothea]

That was probably a supernatural occurrence for a specific purpose. I hope you're not trying to use that as proof people who have died can hear and see us from Heaven.

lol Again, why do you not believe? Some supernatural occurrence? What do you think God's miracles and His created us is?

 

[American Routes]

I see, so you would rather shut off your brain and heart to the works of God that aren't written and cinched up in a book?

How do you know they're works of God? Shouldn't we examine all the things we see in light of scripture?

Do you think Christ explained everything to His Apostles about the Resurrection that are not explicitly named other than what is said in Acts where St. Luke says Christ spoke much about this to His Apostles, but St. Luke didn't elaborate. So because Luke didn't elaborate, we are to shut off our brains and hearts and think nothing is possible when we leave this earth?

OK. You're right. Christ didn't say everything. But the problem with this is that you're ignoring what He did say in order to extrapolate something to justify your beliefs from what He didn't say.

Why isn't what He did say good enough? For example, He did say that we're not to pray to the dead. He did say that we're not to pray to anyone but God (and, yes, I understand that the word "pray" is used in scripture to refer to a request from living persons, but I'm talking about the concept of prayer as commonly taught in scripture, not the etymology of the word "prayer"). He did say that we're not to make graven images. He did say that they are not aware of our prayers. He did say that they cannot appear to us. Why aren't those things enough?

The things He did are not all recorded, and we are to follow both oral and written tradition.

So what "oral tradition" is there that is not taught in scripture and if it is not taught in scripture, how do you know it's correct?

 

[Dorothea]

Sometimes I wonder if the Scriptures tells us that people go straight to Heaven when they die. In scripture it seems that Heaven isn't promised until judgment day. Christ Himself said that come judgment day, He will separate the sheep (right hand) from the goats (left) and that those on His right will receive an eternal reward.

1 Thes 4:15-17 tells us that

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.​

Now, I know, tons of people is really to kill this argument but scripture also seems to speak about a prejudged where some go to Paradise and others Hades. And I know tons of people want to argue over Luke 16 and say that it's only a parable...but Christ told the thief on the cross "Today you will be with me in Paradise" and then Revelations 20;12-15 tells us

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.​

Now, here is a description of Heaven that we have:

Revelations 21:1-8
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”​

My thing is, we tell each other all the time that our loved ones are in Heaven but I wonder if they are in Paradise (if they are indeed in Christ) instead of Heaven as we speak of it. And in Paradise, we don't really have that much of an understanding of what they know. If you look at the story of the rich and poor man, it was the rich man who was in Hades who tried to intercede for his brothers and Abraham said "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded through one rise from the dead..." Now, this is obviously not about prayer nor does it tell us how things in Paradise operates, but I think that was one of the points. We should not put our prayers on those who have died, but to pray specifically to the Father. He's right there. Christ died so that we can be reconciled back to Him.

I guess you can say that some people feel that their prayers are not being heard by God and that's probably possible, but I also think that we should have faith enough to know that if God asks us to pray then we should know that He is there to listen.

Are we going to get into the first resurrection mentioned in Revelation again? This is the one regarding the souls after they physically die on earth. Their bodies rest lifeless in the tomb while their souls/spirits go to be with Christ or not.

As far as the story of the rich man and Abraham, this is a perfect illustration of how people can interact in Paradise or Hades. It shows even in that, the rich man asking Abraham to intercede for his brothers. Abraham's response is not about not hearing. It's about those who have ears to hear, let them hear, but these brothers did not listen to Moses and the prophets, so why would they listen to him? This is the point on that issue.

Again, is there some reason why you would think, especially after talking about this story Christ Himself told, that for some reason, people who physically die on this earth and go on to Paradise and are in the presence of God still have the limitations of hearing, seeing, and understanding that those on earth have?

 

[Dorothea]

How do you know they're works of God? Shouldn't we examine all the things we see in light of scripture?

Examine what works exactly? The ones done at the time St. John wrote that (or rather decades before when they happened), we are to examine those works that weren't shared? I don't understand what you're asking here. As far as what was taught to the Apostles whether written or oral, the Apostles passed on written and orally to the churches they found, and onto their elders - bishops. So, Christ entrusted us with His teachings that they would be preserved both orally and written. St. Paul reiterates that.

OK. You're right. Christ didn't say everything. But the problem with this is that you're ignoring what He did say in order to extrapolate something to justify your beliefs from what He didn't say.

Why isn't what He did say good enough? For example, He did say that we're not to pray to the dead. He did say that we're not to pray to anyone but God (and, yes, I understand that the word "pray" is used in scripture to refer to a request from living persons, but I'm talking about the concept of prayer as commonly taught in scripture, not the etymology of the word "prayer"). He did say that we're not to make graven images. He did say that they are not aware of our prayers. He did say that they cannot appear to us. Why aren't those things enough?

Yes, I realize all that, and we do obey Him, quite fervently. That's the utmost part of our praxis, you see. Do you not believe that we pray to God daily? Even for some, hourly, as it says we are to pray unceasingly. This is what we do. We pray to God daily, and we ask others to pray for us both on earth and in heaven because there is no barrier. Christ tore the veil from Top to Bottom, which means there is no longer a separation for us from Christ and His Body - His people. We are joined together in the members of His Body, and He is the Head. Nothing can separate us from Christ God. It says so in the bible, Not Even Death...says so in the Scriptures. So, we are praying for each other as St. Paul and St. James say to do, and we pray to God as He has told us to. So where are we disobeying or ignoring Him?

Graven images is a long and different subject, and I'm not going to get into a long talk about it. Making graven images as gods and worshiping them is idolatry and adultery. Using writings and/or art work that focuses us on the life of Christ is quite another thing. You want info on that, here's a link:

Orthodox Icons - FAQ

As far as He saying they're not aware of our prayers. I don't recall that at all. I do recall the souls under the altar in the presence of God asking Him when the persecutions and tragedies would end on earth, showing they're quite aware of the sufferings on earth and the struggles of their fellow Christians.

So what "oral tradition" is there that is not taught in scripture and if it is not taught in scripture, how do you know it's correct?

It's the oral tradition that St. Paul speaks of - what was taught by Christ to the Apostles, that the Apostles taught to their disciples. It's quite simple. It's a handing down of what has always been taught and preserved throughout the past 2000 years. It's correct because we were told to keep what was taught orally and written, and to not add or subtract to it. We have done so, we believe. Obviously others and you will disagree, but some studying of history of the Church will show this.

 

[VolRaider]

An interesting rubric....

.

So, you'd support a dogma that insists as a matter of highest importance and certainty that Mary eats nothing but brutwurst and plays 2 rounds of golf per day because there's no Scriptural evidence to the contrary? That we should wear special underwear because there's no Scriptural evidence to the contrary? That everyone must read exclusively from the King James Version of the Bible because there is no Scriptural evidence to the contrary? Interesting rubric! What is mandated is what Scripture never mentions....

Well, none of the stuff you mentioned is condemned by the Bible. I'm sure Mary would like some grilled brats during a football game - who wouldn't?

But where in my post did I mention mandates? I'm Methodist - I don't pray to saints. Somebody pointed out they don't pray to the dead, and I merely said that the saints are not dead - they are alive in Christ. My best friend is Lutheran - he believes that, and I assume you do, too.

Although I pray directly to God, I seriously do not think He is going to put a smackdown on you for praying to saints because he knows the hearts of many Catholics and Orthodox (and some Anglicans) - they put God above all.

 

[Dorothea]

So, you'd support a dogma that insists as a matter of highest importance and certainty that Mary eats nothing but brutwurst and plays 2 rounds of golf per day because there's no Scriptural evidence to the contrary? That we should wear special underwear because there's no Scriptural evidence to the contrary? That everyone must read exclusively from the King James Version of the Bible because there is no Scriptural evidence to the contrary? Interesting rubric! What is mandated is what Scripture never mentions....

Well, none of the stuff you mentioned is condemned by the Bible. I'm sure Mary would like some grilled brats during a football game - who wouldn't?

But where in my post did I mention mandates? I'm Methodist - I don't pray to saints. Somebody pointed out they don't pray to the dead, and I merely said that the saints are not dead - they are alive in Christ. My best friend is Lutheran - he believes that, and I assume you do, too.

Although I pray directly to God, I seriously do not think He is going to put a smackdown on you for praying to saints because he knows the hearts of many Catholics and Orthodox (and some Anglicans) - they put God above all.

For us, it has to do with loving God and our brethren and all mankind, because we pray for the whole world (which is not about asking Saints to pray for us, but just also what we do in prayer too).

 

[VolRaider]

How do you know they're works of God? Shouldn't we examine all the things we see in light of scripture?



OK. You're right. Christ didn't say everything. But the problem with this is that you're ignoring what He did say in order to extrapolate something to justify your beliefs from what He didn't say.

Why isn't what He did say good enough? For example, He did say that we're not to pray to the dead. He did say that we're not to pray to anyone but God (and, yes, I understand that the word "pray" is used in scripture to refer to a request from living persons, but I'm talking about the concept of prayer as commonly taught in scripture, not the etymology of the word "prayer"). He did say that we're not to make graven images. He did say that they are not aware of our prayers. He did say that they cannot appear to us. Why aren't those things enough?



So what "oral tradition" is there that is not taught in scripture and if it is not taught in scripture, how do you know it's correct?

Then you should not ask anybody to pray for you. Asking the saints to pray for you is like asking ordinary people to pray for you. We are ALL alive in Christ - including those who have shed their mortal coil.

BTW - stained glass windows are graven images, along with wooden crosses, etc.

 

[Tzaousios]

OK. You're right. Christ didn't say everything. But the problem with this is that you're ignoring what He did say in order to extrapolate something to justify your beliefs from what He didn't say.

This is just a bit ironic considering that there is a historical record of the Orthodox interpretation which extends back to late antiquity. So, it is not just Dorothea's beliefs.

If anything, although it is clothed in the rhetoric of "just believing what the Bible plainly says," it is your interpretation which is your particular belief, and was probably made circa the twentieth century. Maybe the nineteenth century at the oldest.

Do you happen to believe in the Trail of Blood version of church history?

 

[Stryder06]

Are we going to get into the first resurrection mentioned in Revelation again? This is the one regarding the souls after they physically die on earth. Their bodies rest lifeless in the tomb while their souls/spirits go to be with Christ or not.

Not to butt in my dear, but I did have a question I'd like for you to ask. Considering how heavy Revelation is in the symbolism department, why is it that you think that this was a literal scene of what "souls" in heaven were doing?

Also, what was meant by the angel when it told the souls to rest a little while longer?

 

[VolRaider]

For us, it has to do with loving God and our brethren and all mankind, because we pray for the whole world (which is not about asking Saints to pray for us, but just also what we do in prayer too).

I messed that post up when I replied to Josiah. Here was my response:

Well, none of the stuff you mentioned is condemned by the Bible. I'm sure Mary would like some grilled brats during a football game - who wouldn't?

But where in my post did I mention mandates? I'm Methodist - I don't pray to saints. Somebody pointed out they don't pray to the dead, and I merely said that the saints are not dead - they are alive in Christ. My best friend is Lutheran - he believes that, and I assume you do, too.

Although I pray directly to God, I seriously do not think He is going to put a smackdown on you for praying to saints because he knows the hearts of many Catholics and Orthodox (and some Anglicans) - they put God above all.

 

[Stryder06]

Then you should not ask anybody to pray for you. Asking the saints to pray for you is like asking ordinary people to pray for you. We are ALL alive in Christ - including those who have shed their mortal coil.

BTW - stained glass windows are graven images, along with wooden crosses, etc.

My only question is how do the saints hear you? I mean, if I were to right now, start praying to you, for you to pray for me, you wouldn't hear me would you?

 

[American Routes]

Examine what works exactly?

All works.

The ones done at the time St. John wrote that (or rather decades before when they happened), we are to examine those works that weren't shared? I don't understand what you're asking here.

What I'm asking you is, shouldn't we get our doctrine from scripture? When we judge the religious doctrines and practices within the church, shouldn't scripture be our standard?

As far as what was taught to the Apostles whether written or oral, the Apostles passed on written and orally to the churches they found, and onto their elders - bishops. So, Christ entrusted us with His teachings that they would be preserved both orally and written. St. Paul reiterates that.

Nobody is arguing that there were not oral traditions. I'm just asking you what oral traditions you believe exist outside of scripture and how you know they're legitimate and correct, if not by judging them in light of the objective and authoritative standard of scripture.

Yes, I realize all that, and we do obey Him, quite fervently.

So if that's true, then why do you appear to be justifying your beliefs by appealing to possibility that they may be included in the things Jesus didn't say, rather than using what He did say to shape your doctrine and beliefs?

Do you not believe that we pray to God daily?

The issue isn't praying to God, but praying to dead "saints".

We pray to God daily, and we ask others to pray for us both on earth and in heaven because there is no barrier.

So why do you pray to the dead to pray for you when scripture says that we're not to pray to the dead? They have no more power than you do. Their prayers are no more effective because of their assumed proximity to God. Where are we ever taught to pray to dead saints?

Christ tore the veil from Top to Bottom, which means there is no longer a separation for us from Christ and His Body - His people. We are joined together in the members of His Body, and He is the Head. Nothing can separate us from Christ God. It says so in the bible, Not Even Death...says so in the Scriptures.

That's true, but we're not talking about being seperated from God. We're talking about praying to dead "saints" and their ability to hear us and influence circumstances in our lives.

So, we are praying for each other as St. Paul and St. James say to do, and we pray to God as He has told us to. So where are we disobeying or ignoring Him?

Again, the issue is not praying to God or praying for one another, but praying to dead "saints" and whether or not the dead can hear us or influence circumstances in our lives.

Graven images is a long and different subject, and I'm not going to get into a long talk about it. Making graven images as gods and worshiping them is idolatry and adultery. Using writings and/or art work that focuses us on the life of Christ is quite another thing.

Except that they don't focus you on the life of Christ when their purpose is for you to pray to them.

As far as He saying they're not aware of our prayers. I don't recall that at all.

Did you read the verses provided to you by Salida?

I do recall the souls under the altar in the presence of God asking Him when the persecutions and tragedies would end on earth, showing they're quite aware of the sufferings on earth and the struggles of their fellow Christians.

Which verse are you referring to?

It's the oral tradition that St. Paul speaks of - what was taught by Christ to the Apostles, that the Apostles taught to their disciples. It's quite simple. It's a handing down of what has always been taught and preserved throughout the past 2000 years. It's correct because we were told to keep what was taught orally and written, and to not add or subtract to it.

But how do you know they're included in the traditions Paul tells us to keep?

We have done so, we believe. Obviously others and you will disagree, but some studying of history of the Church will show this.

I teach church history. If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them for you. But it sure would be helpful to me if you'd give me some examples so that I might know what you're referring to.

Then you should not ask anybody to pray for you. Asking the saints to pray for you is like asking ordinary people to pray for you.

Except for the small detail that the dead are dead and we're forbidden to pray to the dead.

We are ALL alive in Christ - including those who have shed their mortal coil.

The Bible very clearly describes them as being dead. In fact, in several cases, it even describes their death.

BTW - stained glass windows are graven images, along with wooden crosses, etc.

If you pray to them, then yes, they are.

This is just a bit ironic considering that there is a historical record of the Orthodox interpretation which extends back to late antiquity. So, it is not just Dorothea's beliefs.

While "historical records" are interesting and can give us a glimpse into the history of the church, they are not on the same level as scripture.

If anything, although it is clothed in the rhetoric of "just believing what the Bible plainly says," it is your interpretation which is your particular belief, and was probably made circa the twentieth century. Maybe the nineteenth century at the oldest.

OK. That's a little too schoolyard for my tastes, but if you want to go that way, then please show why our interpretation is wrong and yours is correct.