How some creationists pushed me away from christianity

[Non sequitur]

Here you are, dear. Satan does not believe that Christ is the Son of God, and tries to sow doubt in Christ's mind as well.

I'm pretty sure he knew.

 

[Ar Cosc]

Just a quick note about CatherineAnne's "Free Gift of Salvation" comment:

Too many christians assume an atheist is someone who believes God exists and simply reject him. This is not the case. I didn't make a choice to be an atheist, I can't choose to believe that God exists any more than you can choose to believe, really, sincerely believe, that I am in fact 14 feet tall and made of Camembert. In this respect, it is not a "free gift", it comes with conditions attached, conditions which, if God existed, I would be unable to fulfil.

 

[Catherineanne]

And why is god different?

I already explained that. Belief in people is about credibility, not existence.

That's funny, because I don't believe in satan either. And it's funny how some people try to say that if I don't believe in god I'm doing satan's work. Does that mean if I don't believe in satan I'm doing god's work?

No.

Let's look at it in a different way. If you give me three or more contemporary, independent, otherwise reliable historians who also mention a specific incident, and who describe it in enough detail such that it definitively cannot be ascribable to any other known cause, then I will count that as evidence that entertains the possibility of god's existence.

You will not find such historians to give you that degree of evidence about Julius Caesar. Are you now going to doubt his existence as well?

Good luck with that.

Now: what will it take to make you believe that god doesn't exist?

Can't be done.

You can't make me believe the sun does not exist, because I know it does. If someone else happens to be a permanent troglodyte, and is unwilling to step outside and see for themselves, then that is not my concern.

As for death and endorphins, I can think of a very plausible explanation; it is released in other, similar situations, such as those of stress, anxiety, and pain. It could very well be simply an epiphenomenon...if this actually does occur. Because I can find no medical literature in my brief search that shows that endorphin release precedes death.

Five minutes on Google and you conclude I must be making this stuff up?

Riiiiiiight.

For a pedant you are remarkably shallow in your research methodology.

So then why do people say that we will burn in hell?

They are not Anglicans. I could be less polite, but I think it best to leave it at that.

 

[underheaven]

Actually, if you read Kings and Chronicles carefully you will find that the story of Abraham and Isaac is intended to persuade the ancient Israelites not to practice infanticide, by offering their first born babies to Molech.

And if you read Kings and Chronicles carefully, you will also find that a lot of them took no notice of this very good advice, and did indeed put their firstborn babies into a fire. The accounts are clearly heavily edited, but not enough that you can't find them if you know what to look for. Children 'passing through fire' are not passing anywhere.

In other words the story is not about faith, it is about preventing ritual child sacrifice in ancient Israel.

The sacrifice of a lamb or a dove later acted as a substitution for the sacrifice of the actual first born child, but God still says that the first born child of any animal or person belongs to him.


For those of us more advanced,it is about 'faith'.
Please do not tell me how to interpret the bible.This is a discussion about
how literalists,creationists,anti- science,etc. turns people away from God .
I see their point.

 

[Catherineanne]

Just a quick note about CatherineAnne's "Free Gift of Salvation" comment:

Too many christians assume an atheist is someone who believes God exists and simply reject him. This is not the case. I didn't make a choice to be an atheist, I can't choose to believe that God exists any more than you can choose to believe, really, sincerely believe, that I am in fact 14 feet tall and made of Camembert. In this respect, it is not a "free gift", it comes with conditions attached, conditions which, if God existed, I would be unable to fulfil.

An atheist is someone who believes that there is no God. As far as I am aware this is not a sin per se, because belief is morally neutral. You can no more choose to believe than I can choose not to believe.

A lot of Christians may say differently, but I see no reason for a loving God to punish belief; that makes no sense.

What makes sense is to look at what happens as a result of your belief. If an atheist as a result of not believing in God happens to treat those around him with respect, lovingkindness and generosity, then there is no difference between that respect and a Christian showing the same respect. If, on the other hand, a Christian shows only bigotry, hatred, animosity and anger towards those around him, it matters very little in whose name he does it, he is the servant of the evil one.

'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'

Matthew 25, 31 - 46

 

[Paul 5]

Mr.P: You are faced with the reality of this world,you can believe that a power greater than ourselves created it or you can believe another reason for its existence,however you cannot deny that our world is a reality. When humans have went away from the possiblity of a creator then they have produced ideas that end in puffs of smoke,they cannot explain our correct environment,nor the force that causes life to exist,actually all they can do is observe the processes of life and comment on them.

 

[Non sequitur]

Mr.P: You are faced with the reality of this world,you can believe that a power greater than ourselves created it or you can believe another reason for its existence,however you cannot deny that our world is a reality. When humans have went away from the possiblity of a creator then they have produced ideas that end in puffs of smoke,they cannot explain our correct environment,nor the force that causes life to exist,actually all they can do is observe the processes of life and comment on them.

And...

 

[Catherineanne]

For those of us more advanced,it is about 'faith'.
Please do not tell me how to interpret the bible.This is a discussion about
how literalists,creationists,anti- science,etc. turns people away from God .
I see their point.

Yes, clearly you are more advanced than I am; nobody can be in any doubt of that.

Meanwhile, I did not tell anyone how to interpret the Bible. I simply pointed out that the story of Abraham and Isaac refers to child sacrifice, and is designed to discourage the ancient Israelites from practicing infanticide.

As indeed it is. Would you like Scripture references for the endemic infanticide, which prophet after prophet condemned? One King abolishes it, and is seen as righteous before God, his successor reinstates it, and is seen as a sinner, committing abominations before the Lord. It is all there, in black and white, if you care to look.

Regarding this story as one to promote faith is a bit less satisfactory. What kind of God would ask any parent to kill their own child for his sake? I know it is the received interpretation, particularly in the more modern churches, but it really doesn't make sense.

 

[Ar Cosc]

An atheist is someone who believes that there is no God. As far as I am aware this is not a sin per se, because belief is morally neutral. You can no more choose to believe than I can choose not to believe.

A lot of Christians may say differently, but I see no reason for a loving God to punish belief; that makes no sense.

What makes sense is to look at what happens as a result of your belief. If an atheist as a result of not believing in God happens to treat those around him with respect, lovingkindness and generosity, then there is no difference between that respect and a Christian showing the same respect. If, on the other hand, a Christian shows only bigotry, hatred, animosity and anger towards those around him, it matters very little in whose name he does it, he is the servant of the evil one.

'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'

Matthew 25, 31 - 46

This is a far healthier form of belief than those christians who revel in the idea of others experiencing eternal torture. You have made me happy!

 

[Catherineanne]

This is a far healthier form of belief than those christians who revel in the idea of others experiencing eternal torture. You have made me happy!

I don't understand how anyone with an ounce of morality would be happy to enter heaven if they knew that outside it is a lake of fire, full of tormented souls, some of them their close friends and even family.

The only moral choice in such an eventuality would be to jump into the lake of fire, in preference to worshipping Sadist God for all eternity.

Fortunately for believers such as myself, it is not possible for man to be more moral than God is. Lucky, that. Therefore, if I am capable of not being a sadist, then it is impossible for God to be one.

 

[underheaven]

Note that this isn't acceptable evidence, because it cannot be independently verified, and there is, moreover, nothing to suggest that it is even necessary to improve our understanding of the world.

The truth Mr Pedantic is that as a Christian ,I find any one who cannot go
beyond quoting their interpretation of the bible enough to turn me off.
Quoting the bible never made anyone a true Christian.
Seeing someone live their life with care of their family ,their neighbour
having intelligent enquiry,open discussion,common sense based on observed behaviours,
and wisdom ,and relating that to the new testament in particular,what Jesus Himself says.
The story of Lucifer is also in ancient Indian religion,and I take my knowledge from there,
about who he was, and what he represented.
It is measureable,and makes sense,and I like making sense.
Believe me God makes sense,it just that not many bible Christians do.
When you have studied widely,you see that God is very logical,
and maybe we can take it further some time ,but I am off to bed,
so happy thinking .

 

[Paul 5]

Just a quick note about CatherineAnne's "Free Gift of Salvation" comment:

Too many christians assume an atheist is someone who believes God exists and simply reject him. This is not the case. I didn't make a choice to be an atheist, I can't choose to believe that God exists any more than you can choose to believe, really, sincerely believe, that I am in fact 14 feet tall and made of Camembert. In this respect, it is not a "free gift", it comes with conditions attached, conditions which, if God existed, I would be unable to fulfil.

Sure you can, our world screams at us that it is a creation,it takes a determined effort to live in this world and believe that a creator does not exist, atheism is not natural to the human mind. The ancients were wrong in that they thought that some big person in the sky was making it thunder,however the ancients were not wrong in that they recognized that an intelligent power had to be behind our world.

 

[Non sequitur]

Sure you can, our world screams at us that it is a creation,

Begging the question.

it takes a determined effort to live in this world and believe that a creator does not exist,

It's no effort at all

atheism is not natural to the human mind.

Either you provide some data for this or it's begging the question.

The ancients were wrong in that they thought that some big person in the sky was making it thunder,however the ancients were not wrong in that they recognized that an intelligent power had to be behind our world.

And, to round up the night... begging the question.

 

[Catherineanne]

Sure you can, our world screams at us that it is a creation,it takes a determined effort to live in this world and believe that a creator does not exist, atheism is not natural to the human mind.

The world doesn't scream at me. More like a quiet whisper carried on the breeze.

I see atheism as a reaction against some rather vile concepts of God, rather than as anything unnatural. For example, this forum is very much skewed towards a US based evangelical portrayal of God, which is in fact very different from the view of God of the majority of Christians on earth. I don't blame anyone for not believing in the evangelical version of God, because I don't believe in him myself. I often think that atheists simply haven't met the right God yet.

Funnily enough, an atheist may be able to describe the God they don't believe in (fire and brimstone God), and they may also have a pretty good idea of the one they wish they could find (unconditional love and acceptance God). If they have only ever met Christians promoting the former, how on earth can they ever get to recognise the latter?

If that is the case, maybe they might like to try this God for size: God as love - St Isaac of Nineveh and Syrian Mysticism / - Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev

Even if people can't believe in him as yet, at least they might decide not to settle for anything less than the very, very best. This is what to look for, and you will know when you find him.

St Isaac of Nineveh and Syrian Mysticism - - Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev

 

[Catherineanne]

And, to round up the night...

Quite right. It is very late, and I must go, or I will never get up in time for Mass.

Goodnight, God bless, all.

 

[Non sequitur]

Quite right. It is very late, and I must go, or I will never get up in time for Mass.

Goodnight, God bless, all.

Night.

 

[Paul 5]

I don't understand how anyone with an ounce of morality would be happy to enter heaven if they knew that outside it is a lake of fire, full of tormented souls, some of them their close friends and even family.

The only moral choice in such an eventuality would be to jump into the lake of fire, in preference to worshipping Sadist God for all eternity.

Fortunately for believers such as myself, it is not possible for man to be more moral than God is. Lucky, that. Therefore, if I am capable of not being a sadist, then it is impossible for God to be one.

Bible teaches hell by default and that God does not want any to enter hell even to the point of suffering and dying for the persons wrongs so that they do not have to go,however the person has to chose God in this life. That is the clinker,the individual HAS TO CHOSE GOD,if they do not chose God in this life than the death for wrongs that God endured does not apply for that person, that is the rules,sorry but they cannot be changed so all who die without coming to God through faith in Christ go to hell by default. What is horrible is that people will not come to God while they can.

 

[Non sequitur]

Bible teaches hell by default and that God does not want any to enter hell even to the point of suffering and dying for the persons wrongs so that they do not have to go,however the person has to chose God in this life. That is the clinker,the individual HAS TO CHOSE GOD,if they do not chose God in this life than the death for wrongs that God endured does not apply for that person, that is the rules,sorry but they cannot be changed so all who die without coming to God through faith in Christ go to hell by default. What is horrible is that people will not come to God while they can.

We're just waiting for your god to make a personal appearance...

 

[Ar Cosc]

Sure you can, our world screams at us that it is a creation,it takes a determined effort to live in this world and believe that a creator does not exist, atheism is not natural to the human mind. The ancients were wrong in that they thought that some big person in the sky was making it thunder,however the ancients were not wrong in that they recognized that an intelligent power had to be behind our world.

On the contrary, I made a determined effort for many years to believe in God, but I really was not able to. Try, right now, to sincerely believe that your God doesn't exist, and that Allah is the one true god. I guarantee you won't be able to do it, no matter how hard you try. Why assume I would be able to change my beliefs any more easily?

As for your evidence that there must be a creator, I have never seen anything that convinces me there needs to be a creator, much less the specific version worshipped by the ancient Israelites.

 

[Paul 5]

Begging the question.



It's no effort at all



Either you provide some data for this or it's begging the question.



And, to round up the night... begging the question.

The data is between your ears if you will listen to it.