legalism

[Frogster]

Okay, we will use what you have posted here...

"erasing the record that stood against us (this is the charge) with its legal demands." What is the legal demand?

You should know this... Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death.." Death is the "legal demand". Death is the payment for sin!!!

That is what was nailed to the cross! Not the law (which Paul calls Holy, Just and Good) The law is not against anyone. The law simply serves as a guideline and tells us what sin is. The law cannot be against anyone. One does not write a law that is against a person. If so, then it could not be Just or Good!

It is the person who goes against a law. If you break the 55 mph speed limit, it would be you who went against the law, NOT THE LAW GOING AGAINST YOU! There would be no logic in this approach. The law just states a fact. It would be you who would face the charge and you who would pay the fine. Take for instance:

"Thou shall not commit adultery" The law just sets limits or guideline. Would you think this a good law? How many marriages would be safe if people followed it? How many children would be born into good homes with both a father and a mother, if followed?

If one goes against the law and is charged then he or she must pay the penalty. What is against the transgressor? The record that stands against the individual (the charge) and the legal demand (the penalty).

So see, the verse does not read that the ten commandments were nailed to the cross. It reads that the charge and the penalty (legal demand) were nailed to the cross. This is for those who repent and turn from sin!

Dude, the law was nailed, for the Christian, through the body, not for the unsaved, they have not gone to the cross. I have no problem thinking the law stands to condemn, and kill, and arouses sin, as it's purpose, for the unsaved, the way Paul used in in Rom 1-3, and 7, and the way he told Tim, the law was not for the church, the just, but for the UNsaved, in chapter 1. But once we die to flesh and law, we are not under it, it is abolished for the Church.

THE CROSS...THE BODY, THE BELIEVER...see col 2;14, the twin epistle.

Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility

 

[from scratch]

so the law is the covenant? (rhetorical question, don't require you to answer, i know you'll be happy about that)

you don't believe that the law of God expresses "His Ways" (deut 8:6, deut 26:17)?

Who is these Scripture s addressed to? What are these ways? Are they the 10 Cs? This isn't a Jewish board last time I checked. BTW, who has the Lord avouched this day? Of course I'm talking about what Moses said then and to whom. And no I won't submit to your out of context implications.

 

[from scratch]

dude,

i was only funning back, lighten up.

if i offended you, then i apologize.

If you say so. I wasn't funnin in the comments I made that quoted above these comments above.

 

[from scratch]

yet his programme is borne out of his character. his programme is a visible representation of the way He works.


Steve

I wouldn't buy your merchandise either. NO SALE! God's character isn't His programme.

 

[from scratch]

help me to understand!

An impossible task for a human. Ask God.

 

[from scratch]

the bible calls it the writing for the ten? really?

this "writing" (col 2:14), seems to be the ten commandments as you put it, and some of the translations i posted seem to think this too.

explain to me how something that is holy, just and good (rom 7:12) is against us, seems to me, it is for us.

while you're explaining, please tell me why God would write something Himself, that would be against us.

Have you read Rom 11:32? I've both quoted it and referenced it many times in GT.

also, explain this:

Deuteronomy 4:4-8(NKJV)
4But you who held fast to the Lord your God are alive today, every one of you.
5“Surely I have taught you statutes and judgments, just as the Lord my God commanded me, that you should act according to them in the land which you go to possess.
6Therefore be careful to observe them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes, and say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’
7“For what great nation is there that has God so near to it, as the Lord our God is to us, for whatever reason we may call upon Him?
8And what great nation is there that has such statutes and righteous judgments as are in all this law which I set before you this day?

Ah were you alive that day or are you a bloodline natural Jew?

so, i'm to believe that the statutes and judgments of God are "against us" and He wants to nail it to the cross? moses said they are righteous (deut 4:8), even!

Please explain how the law is for us. Any law you like.

and what about this?

Deuteronomy 8:6(NKJV)
6“Therefore you shall keep the commandments of the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to fear Him.

Deuteronomy 10:12(NKJV)
12“And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul,

God expressed "His way" through His laws! so, according to you and the majority of "chritianity", we are to believe that this "way" is against us, and of course God doesn't want it for us because He nailed it to the cross.

So what is the context here? Who is God talking to? Waht are His ways referenced here? I think its the 10 Cs and the other 603 laws contained in the law (Torah).

the psalmist said:

Psalms 119:172(NKJV)
172 My tongue shall speak of Your word, For all Your commandments are righteousness.

"commandments that are righteousness", "laws that express His way", and "ways in which we are to act", were nailed to the cross?

Then if you do them you don't need Jesus just like Gal 5:4 says. Grace has no value cause you don'tneed it.

can't go there with you.

whatever was against us that was in our way (col 2:14), couldn't have been the ten commandments, wouldn't add up with the verses i've posted here!

the ten commandments are for us, not against.

What is our natural nature? Doesn't the law go against it?

Romans 7:7(NKJV)
7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

bottom line is for me, i believe what paul wrote:

1 Corinthians 7:19(NKJV)
19Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

obviously you don't.

And you do which makes the Bible promoting fraud and those who wriote it are lying also. So the whole shebang is a fraud.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

originally Posted by JohnRabbit dude,

i was only funning back, lighten up.

if i offended you, then i apologize.

If you say so. I wasn't funnin in the comments I made that quoted above these comments above.

Originally Posted by JohnRabbit help me to understand!

An impossible task for a human. Ask God.

We all need to lighten up a bit here sometimes

NKJV) Matthew 19:26 But Jesus looked at [them] and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
[Mark 10:27/Luke 18:27]

‪Stripes - Don't Call Me Francis‬‏ - YouTube

 

[YosemiteSam]

Any time the just charges are dropped a law has been voided - made to be ineffective. If there are no legal demands there is no inforcable law. The legal demand of the speed limit law is thou shalt not do 56 when the sign says the upper limit is 55. In this the law is against you doing 56. The law then prescribes a penalty. The penalty is the punishment for disobedience. Punishment isn't against us. Avaoiding the consequences of ones actions is wrong and eventually one will face those consequences of irresponsibility.

Now you say the punishment is the only thing nailed to the cross in one breath and in the next you say celebrating because we have been delivered from that punishment in the paying of a fine (sacrifice) is against us. Amazing simply amazing!!! And all followers of the law recieve this. Ah but you say all we have to do is repent and everything is OK. Isn't this the same thing graces pushers are accused of - cheap grace? The law doesn't have much value if it can be so easily be made in effective or bypassed. Why is it most violators want mercy and not law upon violation of a law?

That is what was nailed to the cross! Not the law (which Paul calls Holy, Just and Good) The law is not against anyone. The law simply serves as a guideline and tells us what sin is. The law cannot be against anyone. One does not write a law that is against a person. If so, then it could not be Just or Good!

It is the person who goes against a law. If you break the 55 mph speed limit, it would be you who went against the law, NOT THE LAW GOING AGAINST YOU! There would be no logic in this approach. The law just states a fact. It would be you who would face the charge and you who would pay the fine. Take for instance:

"Thou shall not commit adultery" The law just sets limits or guideline. Would you think this a good law? How many marriages would be safe if people followed it? How many children would be born into good homes with both a father and a mother, if followed? [/aquote]Safe??? That wouldn't cause sin to cease in the least. If anything it would protect sin.Please read a couple times my discussion on this above.

Then I guess you don't understand repentance. It means repenting of sin and changing course...going the other way...doing the will of God.

Y

 

[YosemiteSam]

He found fault with the people not his law but he promised he would have the people he desired who would obey because obedience would be in their nature.

EXACTLY!

 

[YosemiteSam]

I don't understand why you don't see, that the spiritual law, that you ask about in 7:14, was that which made sin work in Paul, sin and law work in conjunction.

What is the Spiritual Law?
When did it come into effect?

Y

 

[YosemiteSam]

God does change things. Mal 3:6 and Heb 13:8 refer to God's character and not His program. Examine the record very closely and one must come to this conclusion.

Go back and read the post by CalRon...God found fault with the people not His law!

 

[YosemiteSam]

Again, I don't understand why you have difficulty, seeing how the spiritual law has power and it creates an opposite reaction to the very command it issues. This can be seen even in basic child psychology. "Billy, don't play with the knife!" What will little Billy want to do?

So the speed limit around the curve is 40 miles an hour...So what your saying is everyone will break the speed limit because it is posted. You might want to rule out all the Sunday drivers out there.

I told my son not to play with the stove and guess what, he obeyed! It was his choice. Free will.

Y

 

[YosemiteSam]

Obviouusly it isn''t believed that this was the program from before the foundation of the world and that God is winging it in the unfolding of salvation. Isa 28:10 establishes the method of what seems to be madness. Here is the verse - For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

You call that "madness".?

 

[YosemiteSam]

After you.

By all means after you... He asked you... You have the floor!

Y

 

[YosemiteSam]

God does change things. Mal 3:6 and Heb 13:8 refer to God's character and not His program. Examine the record very closely and one must come to this conclusion.

So by this you are saying he will not change His law?

Y

 

[YosemiteSam]

Perhaps, but you're not considering the point of temptation called opportunity.

I didn't know temptation or opportunity were in the law. I found it no where... I thought temptation came from the flesh.

Y

 

[YosemiteSam]

Dude, why not just admit it?..Hey..rabbit posted em!



New International Version (©1984)
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.


English Standard Version (©2001)
by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.


New American Standard Bible (©1995)
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.


International Standard Version (©2008)
having erased the charges that were brought against us, along with their obligations that were hostile to us. He took those charges away when he nailed them to the cross.


Lets not forget Tyndale, rabbit did indeed quote the KJV, talking about written. Soooo we got WITH and tyndale, allll unfinished biz here.

My King James. Tyndale!Col 2:14 and hath put out the obligation that was against us, made in the law written, and that hath he taken out of the way, and hath fastened it on his cross,

Okay, you got me, I will admit it.... YOUR WRONG!

 

[YosemiteSam]

I am still waiting for u to tell me what WITH means.

maybe Webster can help you?

Y

 

[YosemiteSam]

Who is these Scripture s addressed to? What are these ways? Are they the 10 Cs? This isn't a Jewish board last time I checked. BTW, who has the Lord avouched this day? Of course I'm talking about what Moses said then and to whom. And no I won't submit to your out of context implications.

He didn't take anything out of context. He asked a plain and simple question. He listed the scriptures, but your asking him what they are... Go look it up. Thats what I would do.

Y

 

[YosemiteSam]

And you do which makes the Bible promoting fraud and those who wriote it are lying also. So the whole shebang is a fraud.

Pretty bold statement coming from what?

Y