Faked Snuff.

[Smileandtheworld]

Snuff film - A film (illegal) which features the actual torture and murder of a victim for profitable distribution in the underground porn trade.

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There is an argument to suggest that real snuff will never be massed made as the risks are to high compared to "faking" the film and distributing it as if it were snuff.

What are the ethics of a programme to flood this "market" with fake snuff films to reduce the demmand for real ones?

 

[JGG]

Snuff film - A film (illegal) which features the actual torture and murder of a victim for profitable distribution in the underground porn trade.

----

There is an argument to suggest that real snuff will never be massed made as the risks are to high compared to "faking" the film and distributing it as if it were snuff.

What are the ethics of a programme to flood this "market" with fake snuff films to reduce the demmand for real ones?

I think creating fake snuff films to satisfy the need for real ones is in itself a bit unethical. As long people are feeding this hunger, it will continue. Let it starve itself out.

Although I admit, it's a tricky idea. I have to think this one out a bit.

 

[The Nihilist]

The wikipedia page on snuff films suggests that their existence is an urban legend, so I don't think that the issue is quite how it's been presented.

 

[DaisyDay]

S
There is an argument to suggest that real snuff will never be massed made as the risks are to high compared to "faking" the film and distributing it as if it were snuff.

But isn't that part of the thrill of a real snuff film - it's rarity and risk?

Just about any American action movie is filled with enough fake violence and often enough, torture and rape to satisfy anyone who would be satisfied with depictions of gore.

 

[al_man]

Wouldn't the beheadings of people and the hanging of saddam be considered snuff? I know there was no profit in it, as far as I am aware, but still it is the murder of a real person on camera, isn't that snuff? Or am I confused?

 

[Smileandtheworld]

The wikipedia page on snuff films suggests that their existence is an urban legend, so I don't think that the issue is quite how it's been presented.

The wiki suggests that no "known" snuff films have been obtained by authorities, but it has ALSO pointed to cases where torture/murder has been recorded and upon capture the perpetrators have claimed they intended to sell the tapes. So it may very well be that snuff exists but has either dodged the bullet or been interrupted before it could get off the ground.

Hypothetical or not, it still lends itself to interesting discussion.

 

[JadeTigress]

Snuff film - A film (illegal) which features the actual torture and murder of a victim for profitable distribution in the underground porn trade.

----

There is an argument to suggest that real snuff will never be massed made as the risks are to high compared to "faking" the film and distributing it as if it were snuff.

What are the ethics of a programme to flood this "market" with fake snuff films to reduce the demmand for real ones?

I have no problem with that at all. Though, as someone else mentioned, it's all about the rarity and risk and curiosity with snuff films, so fake snuff wouldn't really fill those holes.

But nevermind that. If people were cool enough with fake snuff that the real stuff wasn't being made (or not made as much), then I'm all for it. It's satisfying people's lust for it without actually hurting anyone. This is the same reason why I'm all for pedophiles having fake "child porn", or drawings of children, or whatever. As long as it would satisfy them enough to keep them from seeking out and harming real kids.

 

[Athene]

Snuff film - A film (illegal) which features the actual torture and murder of a victim for profitable distribution in the underground porn trade.

----

There is an argument to suggest that real snuff will never be massed made as the risks are to high compared to "faking" the film and distributing it as if it were snuff.

What are the ethics of a programme to flood this "market" with fake snuff films to reduce the demmand for real ones?

Has fake child pornography reduced the demand for the real stuff?

 

[Gishin]

Has fake child pornography reduced the demand for the real stuff?

Can't say, though personally I don't see a reason fake stuff should be illegal just because the real stuff is.

 

[al_man]

Can't say, though personally I don't see a reason fake stuff should be illegal just because the real stuff is.

It still quite disgusting, why would you want to look at fake child porn anyway? It's still depicting the act of child porn, which is foul!

 

[Athene]

Can't say, though personally I don't see a reason fake stuff should be illegal just because the real stuff is.

Ok then. It hasn't. If you're in to snuff, it's the fact that it is really somebody being tortured and killed that is the attraction. Fake snuff isn't going to offer the same buzz because intellectually, the viewer will know it's faked.

 

[Smileandtheworld]

Ok then. It hasn't. If you're in to snuff, it's the fact that it is really somebody being tortured and killed that is the attraction. Fake snuff isn't going to offer the same buzz because intellectually, the viewer will know it's faked.

I think the point is that a fake snuff movie, fakes being snuff and markets itself claiming to be the real torture/rape and execution of a human being. But the producers/directors keep a "behind the scenes" cut so that if they are caught distributing the film they can turn to the police and say "hey it's okay we faked the whole thing, see!"

Thus they can tap into the potential "snuff market", while keeping an insurance plan (reveal the whole thing was fake) in case the deal goes sour.

 

[Gishin]

It still quite disgusting, why would you want to look at fake child porn anyway? It's still depicting the act of child porn, which is foul!

I didn't say I did, but just because it doesn't appeal to me doesn't mean it should be illegal. I mean, look at Australia that went so far as to ban small breasts in porn, regardless of age.

 

[Mling]

Ok then. It hasn't.

How do you know this?

I wasn't aware that realistic faked child porn is widely available, and I haven't heard about any studies which looked at people's appetites for child porn before/after being introduced to realistic child porn. Are you determining this based on individuals who had, in the past, consumed read child porn and turned away to consume fake versions instead; or are you determining it based on the numbers of people who consume real child porn before/after the introduction of realistic fake porn child porn into society at large?

 

[Athene]

How do you know this?

I wasn't aware that realistic faked child porn is widely available, and I haven't heard about any studies which looked at people's appetites for child porn before/after being introduced to realistic child porn. Are you determining this based on individuals who had, in the past, consumed read child porn and turned away to consume fake versions instead; or are you determining it based on the numbers of people who consume real child porn before/after the introduction of realistic fake porn child porn into society at large?

Because I'm very very clever, and I also read newspapers.

 

[Mling]

Because I'm very very clever, and I also read newspapers.

newspapers do not offer all the information that is available in the world, and they very rarely offer statistics on general trends--generally they only offer descriptions of individual anecdotes and descriptions of particular events combined with a brief summary of a very limited and often biased context in which those events occurred.

Newspapers: good for lots of things, but not really useful in this case.

You said there was a general trend: that since fake child porn became available, the consumption of real child porn has not decreased.

I'm questioning whether the condition has actually been met--I'm not familiar with child porn at all so I'm not clear on the availability of certain types, including real vs. fake; and I'm asking for some citation to substantiate your claims about the effects of it.

In short: please cite your sources.

Personally, I'm not interested in child porn or snuff (real or fake, for either), but I do sometimes consume sorts of porn/erotica that other people sometimes consider dangerous because, they claim, the porn whets the appetite. Others, of course, claim that it helps satisfy it.

That is really the entire debate here, about child porn, snuff, simulated rape and anything else. Do images depicting the harmless simulation of harmful acts do more harm or good, in general society?

The information I've heard on the subject are that there is evidence for both sides, and the effect may very well depend on the individual. If you have more information on the subject, including stats on broader trends, please share--I'd be very interested in it.

 

[Athene]

The IWF has information on trends in internet child sexual exploitation.

IWF Operational Trends 2010 | Internet Watch Foundation (IWF)

The NSPCC have also made various studies.

Child abuse images and the internet | NSPCC reading list)