Universe is not homogeneous as far as we know

[Tiberius]

For...what?

For your claims. Stop avoiding the issue and deal with it.

So you admit lack of evidence for your position! Pretty sad comment on your position.

I've provided evidence for my position, you just ignore it.

You, on the other hand, have totally failed to provide any evidence at all for you position.

As for my 'position' I have a lot of them on a lot of issues. You will need to be more specific.

Since we are only discussing the issue of whether the laws of the universe operate as we see them everywhere or just in the local area, I thought it was quite obvious what issue I was talking about.

Or did you perhaps think I was referring to you position on Japan's whaling activities? The rodney King riots? The latest Star trek movie?

So you admit you throw things away when you get caught. OK. You do realize that pretty well everything gets thrown away? Look at a science book from 70 years ago! That means basically that you have nothing, but it just takes some time to get caught.

I throw things away when they are shown to be wrong. See, dad? If I am shown evidence that I am wrong, I accept it. That way I always have the most accurate information?

Now, how about you show me some evidence to show me that you are right?

Yes. Same sort of nonsense, projected on a different screen.

Like I said, woefully ignorant of science.

Evidence of an afterlife? Well, that is outside the realm of science. I have witnesses that saw Moses long after He died, and Jesus after He rose from the dead.

Who do you know who saw Moses? Or Jesus? Can I hear their testimony?

False. You have no clear argument on dating. In your own words, give us one?

I already have, in every post where I have mentioned it.

What is it you think I forget this time? Having trouble articulating?

You forgot that I have been constantly asking you to provide evidendce that supports your position that the laws of the universe operate one way on present-day Earth and another way in deep space/the distant past.

Of course. God's Own words.

Please provide specific passages and verses, along with the method by which you have verified that the information in those verses is correct.

 

[dad]

For your claims. Stop avoiding the issue and deal with it.

My claims? Let's get focused here, we are asking what science knows about the far universe. I claim we don't know.

I've provided evidence for my position, you just ignore it.

You have spammed some radioactive decay links, as I recall, without demonstrating an understanding of the basic concepts and an ability to discuss details.

You, on the other hand, have totally failed to provide any evidence at all for you position.

How hard do you think it is to demonstrate we do not know? That becomes self evident as people show they do not know, as you do now.

Since we are only discussing the issue of whether the laws of the universe operate as we see them everywhere or just in the local area, I thought it was quite obvious what issue I was talking about.

Right, and I don't know. Neither does science. So...? I guess we can assume that space may be different, and that the physical only is not the exclusive material way out there.

I throw things away when they are shown to be wrong. See, dad? If I am shown evidence that I am wrong, I accept it. That way I always have the most accurate information?

Well, say something specific, that is first shown to be right, and we shall see.

Now, how about you show me some evidence to show me that you are right?

The evidence is that you do not know, and can't say. Neither can anyone else if you notice!? How much more could we ask for as evidence you do not know?

Who do you know who saw Moses? Or Jesus? Can I hear their testimony?

Of course.

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.


There it is. The records we kept.

You forgot that I have been constantly asking you to provide evidendce that supports your position that the laws of the universe operate one way on present-day Earth and another way in deep space/the distant past.

No. I don't know. But obviously if the spiritual is a part of the realities far away, earth rules don't apply. We don't need to know how they do work. All we need to do is expose that science doesn't know. I claim it doesn't. That is my claim.



As for bible indications that stars are spiritually associated, here is a few.

Nu 24:17 -I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.



Mt 2:2 -Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.



Mt 2:9 -When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.



Re 22:16 - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.



Job 25:5 - Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.



Ps 147:4 -He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.



Isa 14:13 -For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:



Mt 24:29 -Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:



Jude 1:13 -Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.



Re 12:4 -And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

 

[Chalnoth]

My claims? Let's get focused here, we are asking what science knows about the far universe. I claim we don't know.

Please don't lie. You absolutely do claim to know, and to know absolutely, what the nature of the universe is. You claim that a great many things that scientists say cannot be correct, because what they say contradicts what you claim to know. So please drop this false show of humility. The only reason why you claim science doesn't know something is because it contradicts what you believe.

 

[Tiberius]

My claims? Let's get focused here, we are asking what science knows about the far universe. I claim we don't know.

Rubbish. You've been claiming that the laws that operate today on Earth do not operate the same way in the distant universe, nor did they operate the same way in the past.

You have spammed some radioactive decay links, as I recall, without demonstrating an understanding of the basic concepts and an ability to discuss details.

I think it's a little hypocritical of you to accuse me of not discussing details when you have, when asked to provide specific evidence that supports your position that the laws were at one point/place different, replied "history".

Besides, it you actually read those links, you'd have seen that they answer your questions, and hence are not spam.

How hard do you think it is to demonstrate we do not know? That becomes self evident as people show they do not know, as you do now.

This is only valid if you have been saying, "There is no way to know if the laws that are in action here on Earth function the same way in the distant universe."

However, your posts all throughout this thread have not said that you don't know. They have said very clearly that you think that the laws that operate here and now DO NOT operate the same in the distant universe.

Right, and I don't know. Neither does science. So...? I guess we can assume that space may be different, and that the physical only is not the exclusive material way out there.

or we can actually put it to the test. Actually have a look. Say to ourselves, "If the laws that operate here and now also operate in the distant universe, we'd be able to see this, this and this." Then actually have a look to see if we can see those things.

Now, scientists have actually done that, and what they see is exactly what they expected to see if the laws that operate in the here and now also operate in the there and then.

Well, say something specific, that is first shown to be right, and we shall see.

Einstein's theory of relativity. What it explains is exactly what we see in the real universe.

The evidence is that you do not know, and can't say. Neither can anyone else if you notice!? How much more could we ask for as evidence you do not know?

Irrelevant. As I;ve said before, even if I couldn't prove my position was correct, that doesn't mean your position is true. You are attempting to create a false dichotomy, claiming that there are only two possible options. If you want your position about this topic to be viewed as valid, you must show evidence that supports it. Attempting to prove how great your idea is by discrediting the opposing viewpoint is a cheap and dirty trick used only by politicians.

Of course.

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Ah, this is getting somewhere.

But I have a niggling doubt as to the authenticity of this record. Please show me how the authenticity of this record has been proven. Then I will accept it, admit that you were right and convert to Christianity. All you have to do is prove that this single passage is accurately relating events that really took place.

No. I don't know. But obviously if the spiritual is a part of the realities far away, earth rules don't apply. We don't need to know how they do work. All we need to do is expose that science doesn't know. I claim it doesn't. That is my claim.

So, you are basing your idea on an "if", one that you aren't even sure of.

As for bible indications that stars are spiritually associated, here is a few.

I removed the links for brevity. Your position again depends on the authenticity of the passages you quoted.

 

[dad]

Please don't lie. You absolutely do claim to know, and to know absolutely, what the nature of the universe is.

Rubbish. I have no idea what this universe far away is like. Point is that neither do you. I assume that it involves the spiritual. Science has squat to say about that. How's them apples?

You claim that a great many things that scientists say cannot be correct, because what they say contradicts what you claim to know.

They have no basis for extra earth state claims. None. They are deceivers if they say otherwise.

So please drop this false show of humility. The only reason why you claim science doesn't know something is because it contradicts what you believe.

Nonsense. They cannot support what they claim and believe. Nor can you. Here. Now. Ever. Really. Not as applies to the far far away or long long ago. Period.

 

[dad]

Rubbish. You've been claiming that the laws that operate today on Earth do not operate the same way in the distant universe, nor did they operate the same way in the past.

Obviously they did not in the past, if one does not dream stuff up, and reject bible and history. As for the distant universe, I don't know. Neither do you. Neither does science. If you do...speak up. Pony up. I think we can all see you cannot and have failed directly here.

I think it's a little hypocritical of you to accuse me of not discussing details when you have, when asked to provide specific evidence that supports your position that the laws were at one point/place different, replied "history".

No. You claim that decay existed in the past, and can't back it up. If you do not understand how decay dates are arrived at, just be honest. If you can, support it. End of story. No need for blah blah.

Besides, it you actually read those links, you'd have seen that they answer your questions, and hence are not spam.

False. They don't. Show us how, and where precisely. Be honest.

This is only valid if you have been saying, "There is no way to know if the laws that are in action here on Earth function the same way in the distant universe."

However, your posts all throughout this thread have not said that you don't know. They have said very clearly that you think that the laws that operate here and now DO NOT operate the same in the distant universe.

They are NOT known to. So, although I realize that the spiritual is involved, how would I know how that all works? Science sure doesn't.

or we can actually put it to the test. Actually have a look. Say to ourselves, "If the laws that operate here and now also operate in the distant universe, we'd be able to see this, this and this." Then actually have a look to see if we can see those things.

Great! Let's do that then, and solve the riddle. What is "this" or "this"??? Let's look at it. Here. Now.

Now, scientists have actually done that, and what they see is exactly what they expected to see if the laws that operate in the here and now also operate in the there and then.

Excellent, so show us. Or we will have to flush.

Einstein's theory of relativity. What it explains is exactly what we see in the real universe.

Nope. Only our little section. Prove more??

Irrelevant. As I;ve said before, even if I couldn't prove my position was correct, that doesn't mean your position is true.

Well, once we see science fail, no proof is needed. People either believe what they feel is solid, or remain ignorant.

You are attempting to create a false dichotomy, claiming that there are only two possible options. If you want your position about this topic to be viewed as valid, you must show evidence that supports it. Attempting to prove how great your idea is by discrediting the opposing viewpoint is a cheap and dirty trick used only by politicians.

No. I am showing clearly that science does not know what it is talking about. Nothing else is needed. Many of us already knew that God knows what He is talking about.

But I have a niggling doubt as to the authenticity of this record. Please show me how the authenticity of this record has been proven. Then I will accept it, admit that you were right and convert to Christianity. All you have to do is prove that this single passage is accurately relating events that really took place.

Millions died to verify the record. Billions since have tested it and found that their lives were changed. I trust the records of Christ and His true followers. The calendar year is set to Him. Prophesies came true. Not one stone was left on another in the temple at Jerusalem. There really was a Peter, and John, and etc. Jesus was seen by MANY after He rose from the dead.

I removed the links for brevity. Your position again depends on the authenticity of the passages you quoted.

True. My salvation depends on them too. I bet my life.

 

[Tiberius]

They have no basis for extra earth state claims. None. They are deceivers if they say otherwise.

They use the fact they produce meaningful results as their basis.

You have not been able to support your position that the distant universe is different, nor have you been able to explain how it is different, nor explain how a flawed system is able to produce results that make perfect sense.

Obviously they did not in the past, if one does not dream stuff up, and reject bible and history. As for the distant universe, I don't know. Neither do you. Neither does science. If you do...speak up. Pony up. I think we can all see you cannot and have failed directly here.

There's your problem. You are starting with the assumption that the Bible is true. I do not. This whole problem goes away if you accept that your interpretation of the Bible could be mistaken.

No. You claim that decay existed in the past, and can't back it up. If you do not understand how decay dates are arrived at, just be honest. If you can, support it. End of story. No need for blah blah.

I back it up by stating that there are rocks with millions of years of decay.

However, if you think that the thousands of scientists around the world who depend on using those techniques have missed such an obvious flaw, why don't you write a research paper and get it published and become the world's most famous scientist?

False. They don't. Show us how, and where precisely. Be honest.

The links provide a thorough grounding in how radio dating works. The fact that you think it is flawed shows that either you didn't read them or that you didn't understand what you read.

They are NOT known to.

Yes they are. What we see in the distant universe would make no sense to us if we try to understand it using the laws that operate here if the laws that operate out there were different.

It would be like watching a game of baseball. if you try to figure it out using the rules of snooker, then you'll be thoroughly confused. The only way to make sense of what you see is if you try to make sense of it using the same rules that govern what you are seeing.

So if we look at the distant universe, trying to make sense of that distant universe by using the laws that we experience here, and we are able to make sense of the distant universe, then that is very strong evidence that the laws that we experience here are also in action in that distant universe that we observe.

Does that make any sense at all to you?

So, although I realize that the spiritual is involved, how would I know how that all works? Science sure doesn't.

How do you realise that the spiritual is involved? Are you able to test it to make sure you are right?

Great! Let's do that then, and solve the riddle. What is "this" or "this"??? Let's look at it. Here. Now.

I've already shown you.

Excellent, so show us. Or we will have to flush.

Like I said, I already have.

Nope. Only our little section. Prove more??

Remember what I said about trying to figure out baseball? Same thing.

Well, once we see science fail, no proof is needed. People either believe what they feel is solid, or remain ignorant.

No. I am showing clearly that science does not know what it is talking about. Nothing else is needed. Many of us already knew that God knows what He is talking about.

Despite that God contradicts reality many times.

Millions died to verify the record.

But that proves nothing. Millions have died for other things which you believe are not true. the fact that someone is willing to die for their beliefs in no way reflects on the accuracy of those beliefs.

Billions since have tested it and found that their lives were changed.

But billions have tested all sorts of other religions and found their lives changed as well.

I trust the records of Christ and His true followers.

That's fine. I have no problem with you holding whatever beliefs you want. But I don't see how you can justify presenting a subjective opinion as an objective fact.

The calendar year is set to Him.

So what? The days of the week are named after various other gods. it means nothing.

Prophesies came true.

Let me guess. The fulfillment of the prophecies is either in the Bible as well (so we can't verify it outside the bible), or was written AFTER the supposed fulfillment (even i can prophecise what I'm going to have for dinner yesterday) or is so likely that it's almost certain to come to pass (such as my prophecy that the sun will rise tomorrow), or is so vague that it can easily be interpreted to fit facts AFTER the event, but cannot be clearly understood BEFORE.

Not one stone was left on another in the temple at Jerusalem.

Where's the proof of this?

There really was a Peter, and John, and etc.

Again, where's your proof?

Jesus was seen by MANY after He rose from the dead.

And funnily enough, out of all those many people, not one of them wrote anything down about it.

True. My salvation depends on them too. I bet my life.

Of course, it's easy for you. You just blindly accept what you;ve been told. If you're wrong, you figure you don't have anything to lose.

 

[Chalnoth]

Rubbish. I have no idea what this universe far away is like. Point is that neither do you. I assume that it involves the spiritual. Science has squat to say about that. How's them apples?

They have no basis for extra earth state claims. None. They are deceivers if they say otherwise.


Nonsense. They cannot support what they claim and believe. Nor can you. Here. Now. Ever. Really. Not as applies to the far far away or long long ago. Period.

Thank you for supporting everything I wrote.

 

[dad]

They use the fact they produce meaningful results as their basis.

You saying stuff doesn't make it fact. They know squat about the far past.

You have not been able to support your position that the distant universe is different, nor have you been able to explain how it is different, nor explain how a flawed system is able to produce results that make perfect sense.

Well, since no one knows it is the same, as far as science goes, you are hooped. For those that accept more than last week, and see the records some clues can be found.

There's your problem. You are starting with the assumption that the Bible is true. I do not. This whole problem goes away if you accept that your interpretation of the Bible could be mistaken.

Save your assumptions. Tell us what is known. As little as that may be.

I back it up by stating that there are rocks with millions of years of decay.

Lie. Prove it.

However, if you think that the thousands of scientists around the world who depend on using those techniques have missed such an obvious flaw, why don't you write a research paper and get it published and become the world's most famous scientist?

They need more than a paper. They need flushing.

The links provide a thorough grounding in how radio dating works. The fact that you think it is flawed shows that either you didn't read them or that you didn't understand what you read.

False. Tell us how. Use links for support in case we someone doubts you.

Yes they are. What we see in the distant universe would make no sense to us if we try to understand it using the laws that operate here if the laws that operate out there were different.

Great. Example??

It would be like watching a game of baseball. if you try to figure it out using the rules of snooker, then you'll be thoroughly confused. The only way to make sense of what you see is if you try to make sense of it using the same rules that govern what you are seeing.

If what you are seeing is trillions of miles away, how would you know what you are seeing?

So if we look at the distant universe, trying to make sense of that distant universe by using the laws that we experience here, and we are able to make sense of the distant universe, then that is very strong evidence that the laws that we experience here are also in action in that distant universe that we observe.

You make no sense, though. That is the problem. Stuffing the universe in a speck makes no real sense. Declaring almost all the universe dark stuff makes no sense.

How do you realise that the spiritual is involved? Are you able to test it to make sure you are right?

God said so.

Like I said, I already have.

Lie.

Despite that God contradicts reality many times.

Not if He is part of it.

But that proves nothing. Millions have died for other things which you believe are not true. the fact that someone is willing to die for their beliefs in no way reflects on the accuracy of those beliefs.

False. Where? Show me where millions died to verify anything?

But billions have tested all sorts of other religions and found their lives changed as well.

And you question it?

That's fine. I have no problem with you holding whatever beliefs you want. But I don't see how you can justify presenting a subjective opinion as an objective fact.

The scared record is fact. All you could possibly do is doubt with no proof or reason.

So what? The days of the week are named after various other gods. it means nothing.

Yes. It means bad spirits also are part of our reality here, but that God grabbed the main thing, the years!

Let me guess. The fulfillment of the prophecies is either in the Bible as well (so we can't verify it outside the bible), or was written AFTER the supposed fulfillment (even i can prophecise what I'm going to have for dinner yesterday) or is so likely that it's almost certain to come to pass (such as my prophecy that the sun will rise tomorrow), or is so vague that it can easily be interpreted to fit facts AFTER the event, but cannot be clearly understood BEFORE.

Stop guessing. Look stuff up, it beats sounding silly.

Where's the proof of this?

Show me temple stones still intact???? None exist. Just some bits of a retaining wall. (wailing)

Again, where's your proof?

Look it up. You think that there is any proof these known leaders of early Christians were ghosts or something???? Try to get real.

And funnily enough, out of all those many people, not one of them wrote anything down about it.

False. Why talk even? Stick to what you know.


1Jo 1:1 -That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
He came. They saw. He conquered.

 

[dad]

Thank you for supporting everything I wrote.

Thank you for talking nonsense rather than trying to support a same state far away universe. So...you claimed contact....?

 

[Chalnoth]

Thank you for talking nonsense rather than trying to support a same state far away universe. So...you claimed contact....?

I don't see any reason to dignify your weird misinterpretations. If anybody else would like a clarification of any of my posts, please ask. But I see no reason to respond to most of what you say.

 

[MattRose]

I doubt that earth laws and forces and light and space exist across the universe. Anyone have proof they do?

I know for a fact that in other parts of the universe, the color or shade that we call "black" is actually just a very dark gray. Also the name "Bob" is pronounced gil-mar-dish.

 

[dad]

I don't see any reason to dignify your weird misinterpretations. If anybody else would like a clarification of any of my posts, please ask. But I see no reason to respond to most of what you say.

The early universe was 6000 years ago. Using your imaginary creatorless inflation to get the temperature in the expanse of space is a fairy tale. I have no need for you to respond with fables. Your job is to show you can't show them as known facts and real knowledge and science. If I were you I would hush up most of the time also. No problem.

 

[dad]

I know for a fact that in other parts of the universe, the color or shade that we call "black" is actually just a very dark gray. Also the name "Bob" is pronounced gil-mar-dish.

You are well informed then?

"Cosmologists have struggled to explain why far-flung regions of the universe are at roughly the same temperature. It implies that these regions were once close enough to exchange energy and even out the temperature, yet current models of the early universe prevent this from happening, unless they assume an ultra-fast expansion right after the big bang."

Speed of light may have changed recently - physics-math - 30 June 2004 - New Scientist

You see the trick of science is to use earth nature and laws superimposed into deep space or the past, to create a godless alter reality.

 

[Tiberius]

You saying stuff doesn't make it fact. They know squat about the far past.

You saying stuff doesn't mean squat either. So how about you give us a reason to accept your claims?

Well, since no one knows it is the same, as far as science goes, you are hooped. For those that accept more than last week, and see the records some clues can be found.

I've explained countless times that we do know it is the same.

Save your assumptions. Tell us what is known. As little as that may be.

I already have. You are just too blinded by your preconceptions to see it.

Lie. Prove it.

You say that there is radioactive decay today, yes? Well, we understand the process, and we are able to determine how long that process of decay has been going on for. I;ve given you links to examples of rocks that have millions of years of decay. And you have NEVER been able to explain how these rocks can show millions of years of decay when the process has been going on for a few thousand years.

They need more than a paper. They need flushing.

Let's not resort to petty name calling, now, shall we?

False. Tell us how. Use links for support in case we someone doubts you.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that you were the one who dictated proper debate procedure. Although I'm not surprised that you have a different view of it, as you don't seem to think that you need to provide any evidence to support your view.

I simply present evidence that supports my position. if you take exception to it because I didn't write it myself, that's not my problem. The evidence speaks for itself, it doesn't matter who wrote it.

Great. Example??

Behaviour of distant stars. Their temperature when viewed in conjunction with their elemental make up matches precisely what we would expect. (That means that we can look at a spectroscope of a star to figure out what elements are inside it, and figure out how hot it should be. Then we can measure it's temperature, and the temperature we get is exactly what we expected it to be.)

If what you are seeing is trillions of miles away, how would you know what you are seeing?

Really big telescopes.

You make no sense, though. That is the problem. Stuffing the universe in a speck makes no real sense. Declaring almost all the universe dark stuff makes no sense.

I'm sorry, did I mention dark matter at all?

You gotta remember to reply to what I actually wrote, not what you think I am writing.

God said so.

Did God tell you this personally, or did you read it in the Bible?

Lie.

Your dismissal mof it does not change the fact that I presented it.

Not if He is part of it.

THat makes no sense whatsoever.

False. Where? Show me where millions died to verify anything?

Branch Davidians, Heaven's Temple, Solar temple... These are just three examples of a group of people who chose to kill themselves because they had flawed and incorrect belioefs that they genuinely thought were true.

And it's not just cult suicides. How many people die in the Middle east in wars and conflicts based on religious differences? I've even heard of a school shooting where the gunman asked potential victims if they were Christian. He killed the Christians and yet spared the atheists. Not that I am supporting that kind of behaviour, of course. I deplore any murder. But it does show that people are willing to die for their beliefs, even if you don't neccessarily think those beliefs are true.

And you question it?

You do.

The scared record is fact. All you could possibly do is doubt with no proof or reason.

How have you verified it as fact?

And I can have a reason to doubt it. I can compare what the scriptual record says with reality. Now, if scripture and reality disagree, then one of them must be wrong. And, considering that it would be quite reasonable to assume that reality is, well, real, that would lead to the conclusion that if reality and scripture disagree, then it is scripture that is wrong.

Yes. It means bad spirits also are part of our reality here, but that God grabbed the main thing, the years!

Considering that we change days far more often than we change years, isn't that a bit backwards?

besides, what about the other kinds of calendar out there?

Stop guessing. Look stuff up, it beats sounding silly.

I'm not guessing.

Show me temple stones still intact???? None exist. Just some bits of a retaining wall. (wailing)

I'm sorry, I thought that was stones left on top of one another, which you said was impossible. In any case, all buildings collapse sooner or later.

Look it up. You think that there is any proof these known leaders of early Christians were ghosts or something???? Try to get real.

Sure, I could look it up, but I'd have no way to verify what I look up, would I?

False. Why talk even? Stick to what you know.

1Jo 1:1 -That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

He came. They saw. He conquered.

Then please show me ten of these written eye witness accounts.

 

[Davian]

Dad, do you believe the Earth rotates on its axis and orbits the sun?

 

[AV1611VET]

Dad, do you believe the Earth rotates on its axis and orbits the sun?

Yes -- God set this planet to spinning, before He created the sun.

Here's a question for you:

What color was the sun before the Fall?

 

[Tiberius]

AV, why do you ask those questions? You surely can see that Davian has the atheist icon, so he doesn't believe that the fall happened.

 

[sandwiches]

Rubbish. I have no idea what this universe far away is like. Point is that neither do you. I assume that it involves the spiritual. Science has squat to say about that. How's them apples?

Bullcorn. You claim the distant past and deep space have different laws than here on Earth, in the present. So, put up them apples and show us the evidence for your claims, tiger.

 

[AV1611VET]

AV, why do you ask those questions? You surely can see that Davian has the atheist icon, so he doesn't believe that the fall happened.

I'll rephrase it then, since atheists can ask us about the Fall, but we can't ask them:

Davian, what color do you think the sun was prior to 4003 BC?