If Evolution were true...

[Psudopod]

fruit trees were created by God with fruit on them. If we could have cut this "one second old" trees down, it would have rings showing it was a mature tree.

So God created a fake history? I thought God couldn't lie?

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

yep

fruit trees were created by God with fruit on them. If we could have cut this "one second old" trees down, it would have rings showing it was a mature tree.

The whole age debate falls short to Christians who believe the Bible literally because the Bible already answers this question for us. We do not have to dig around or put a bunch of different commentaries/theories together. The answer is right there plain as day (24 hours).

Your faith is strong. If there is a heaven, I'm sure you'll be rewarded.

 

[AV1611VET]

So God created a fake history?

Nope -- embedded age is: maturity without history.

I thought God couldn't lie?

How would you have done it differently?

After all, if you would have created a tree in a moment of time -- and that tree has fruit on it -- (not to mention height) -- then are you creating a 'fake history'?

Should Adam and Eve have starved to death so you wouldn't feel like we've been "deceived"?

 

[Psudopod]

Originally Posted by Psudopod

So God created a fake history?
​

Nope -- embedded age is: maturity without history.

So why the tree rings?

Originally Posted by Psudopod

I thought God couldn't lie?
​

How would you have done it differently?

After all, if you would have created a tree in a moment of time -- and that tree has fruit on it -- (not to mention height) -- then are you creating a 'fake history'?

Should Adam and Eve have starved to death so you wouldn't feel like we've been "deceived"?

He wouldn't have put rings in, as these serve no purpose on the delivery of fruit to Adam and Eve.

 

[Deaver]

It's no secret that religion makes some people happy, and there certainly is a correlation between happiness and good health/well-being. But that still doesn't address "spiritual health."

I found the following that may help:

From Annals of Family Medicine 6:412-420 (2008)

ABSTRACT

PURPOSE Recent work suggests that the biopsychosocial model should be expanded to include the spiritual dimension as well. The purpose of this study was to assess the independent effects of spiritual symptoms and their interactions with biopsychosocial symptoms on health care utilization, extreme use of services, and life satisfaction among primary care patients.

METHODS Three hundred fifty-three adult waiting room patients at 2 primary care clinics completed the Biopsychosociospiritual Inventory (BioPSSI) as well as measures of life satisfaction and health care use. Hierarchical logistic regression analysis was performed with each outcome to determine whether adding spiritual symptoms and their interaction terms better accounted for outcomes than demographics, functional status, and chronic medical problems alone.

RESULTS Spiritual symptoms (alone or in interaction) were associated with 7 of the 10 outcomes and were particularly important to extreme use of health care services and life satisfaction. Among best-fit models, spiritual symptoms alone were significantly associated with any mental health use (β =0.694, P .05), fair-poor health status (β =0.837, P .05), and life lacking meaning (β =1.214, P .001).

CONCLUSIONS This study has shown the relevance of spiritual symptoms and their interactions to understanding health outcomes. Extreme utilization outcomes were related to the number of chronic problems, as well as to the social-spiritual interaction. Satisfaction outcomes were associated with physical and spiritual symptoms. These findings may have important implications for providing comprehensive, outcome-based care, as well as for modeling of research findings.

 

[AV1611VET]

So why the tree rings?

I don't know -- certainly not to deceive us -- that's you guys' job.

He wouldn't have put rings in, as these serve no purpose on the delivery of fruit to Adam and Eve.

Please --

Did Jesus have to walk on water?

Can't God do anything without checking with you guys first?

 

[Split Rock]

What I have found is that while the Bible is not a science book, it is scientifically accurate. I am not aware of any scientific evidence that contradicts the Bible. By that I do not mean that I believe in what the Bible reveals because I have found some scientific proposals that agree with it. It means, I believe, that science continues to support knowledge recorded in the Bible over three thousand years ago.

I disagree that the bible is scientifically accurate. Rather, it reflects what was known or believed by the writers. The writers used the "scientific" knowledge of the time, and nothing else. One example is the geocentric solar system. Although the bible does not spell it out, it clearly infers a geocentric solar system with the earth at the center of the universe. The earth is created first, before the sun. The sun is seen as nothing more than a lamp for the earth that travels around it, just like the moon. The earth is never identified with other planets in the solar system, nor is the sun identified with the stars. Joshua stops the sun from moving around the earth, rather than visa-versa, etc. This does not reflect any scientifically accurate truth... rather, it reflects the faulty understanding of the times.

As we continue to grow our scientific knowledge of the information stored in our cells, I am sure we will find more evidence that supports a theory of intelligent design. As that happens I think everyone – scientists, theologians and lay people will gain a much bigger and more accurate picture of everything. Perhaps even something we all can agree on.

For decades now, IDers have been making the claim that one day they will come up with a testable scientific theory of intelligent design. We are still waiting. I won't hold my breathe.

 

[OllieFranz]

I don't know -- certainly not to deceive us -- that's you guys' job.

Please --

Did Jesus have to walk on water?

Can't God do anything without checking with you guys first?

Your (apparently new) position is philosophically feasible (though I wouldn't consider it established), and, if true, science would have no way of refuting it. So why, a month or so ago when we were discussing dating methods, did you continue to disagree when I conceded then that if there were a miraculous discontinuity in the history, the models would not see it and when they would continue to make accurate predictions on where to find oil, or coal, or other resources, they would do so on the calculated dates involved?

 

[Split Rock]

Let me take a try at answering your question:

I believe I can show verses in the Bible that are consistent with the following disciplines: Paleontology, Astronomy, Meteorology, Biology, Anthropology, Hydrology, Geology, Physics.

Let’s take biology for example.

In Leviticus 17:11, written prior to 1400 BC the value of blood is described.

“For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.” (KJV)
​

Today, 3, 400 years later, we know that the blood carries water and nourishment to every cell, maintains the body’s temperature, and removes the waste material of the body’s cells. The blood also carries oxygen from the lungs throughout the body.

And none of this is described by scripture. It was not uncommon knowledge at the time that one could bleed to death.

The Bible describes the development of living organisms from other living organisms (biogenesis) and the stability of each kind of living organism.

...The phrase “according to its kind” occurs repeatedly, stressing the reproductive integrity of each kind of animal and plant. Today we know this occurs because all of these reproductive systems are programmed by their genetic codes.

Again the basics of heredity were understood at the time. Obviously ducks give birth to ducks, etc. Nothing not known by the writers.

The Bible describes the chemical nature of flesh.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7 KJV)​

No, we are not made from silicates, which is what you seem to be implying with this quote.


​

Today we know that a person’s mental and spiritual health is strongly correlated with physical health. As we search through scripture we find these scripture verses (and others) written by King Solomon about 950 BC.

A virtuous woman is a crown to her husband: but she that maketh ashamed is as rottenness in his bones. (Proverbs 12:4 KJV)

A sound heart is the life of the flesh: but envy the rottenness of the bones. (Proverbs 14:30 KJV)

The light of the eyes rejoiceth the heart: and a good report maketh the bones fat. (Proverbs 15:30 KJV)

Pleasant words are as an honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones. (Proverbs 16:24 KJV)

A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones. (Proverbs 17:22 KJV)
​

Actually, what the bible demonstrates is a misunderstanding of the function of the heart. Some of your quotes emphasize this misunderstanding. Neither thinking nor emotion reside in the heart. Unfortunately, the writers didn't know that, and apparently their god didn't tell them any differently.

Let me jump right to my point. I don’t believe there was a scientific method that discovered “evolution”. Darwin noticed the variation in the appearance of individual animals while studying wildlife. He assumed that this variation, given enough time, would allow those animals to change to the point that they looked different. The theory of evolution then developed through people writing books that typically contain two things (i) artist’s drawings that show the ages and names of the layers of the earth and (ii) artist’s drawings showing plants and animals arranged in a “family tree.” The continuous printing of them for more than a hundred years does not prove the theory.

Well then, you are certainly ignorant of the evidence for evolution and common descent. Darwin used not only the adaptive radiation of island species, but biogeography, comparative anatomy, artifical selection (breeding) and vestigial organs as evidence for his theory. We have a lot more evidence now, such as phylogenetics. Here is a good website: Understanding Evolution

What Darwin assumed was not really surprising. This process of changing an organism’s appearance through a series of small changes is correctly called “microevolution”. But let’s be real that is not what we are referring to when we use the term “the theory of evolution”.

Please define "microevolution" for us.

Whenever I find myself in a discussion regarding whether the Bible’s creation account or the theory of evolution is correct, I find that we are really discussing “where did life come from?” and “did we descend from apelike ancestors?”

We are apes.

I will go out on a limb here by saying nothing has been dug out of the ground (or discovered anywhere else) that has proven the “theory of evolution”, which I maintain is a really a discussion of abiogenesis and macroevolution combined.

First, abiogenesis is not part of Biological Evolution. Evolution requires populations of organisms able to imperfectly reproduce. If God had dropped the first life forms on earth and let them evolve, it would not change the theroy of evolution at all. Secondly, we do not "prove" in science. Proof, as we say, is for alcohol and mathematics. However, evolution is porven beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[selfinflikted]

I agree that these things have been discussed alot. Having said that, I am not sure science and the bible disagree. You have to keep in mind some things can be taken literally, for example "The Flood", "Adam and Eve" and others "talking animals" may be more allegorical in nature.

You guys never cease to amaze me. I expect one answer, and get this.

With regard to "spiritual health", I am not sure what your point is. I don't like to avoid discussion, but I really am missing your point on "spiritual health".

I'll be honest, a lot of that abstract you posted waas talking right over my head, but you didn't supply a link (Biopsychosociospiritual Inventory - what's that? Hierarchical logistic regression analysis? - dunno what that is either). Was that from some religious institution? I can't fathom the medical community at large taking "spiritual" matters into consideration.

 

[Split Rock]

yep

fruit trees were created by God with fruit on them. If we could have cut this "one second old" trees down, it would have rings showing it was a mature tree.

How do you know this? You do realize that a tree would not have to have growth rings in order to be mature or bear fruit... right? It could be just as thick without any rings at all.

The whole age debate falls short to Christians who believe the Bible literally because the Bible already answers this question for us. We do not have to dig around or put a bunch of different commentaries/theories together. The answer is right there plain as day (24 hours).

Yeah, I guess you wouldn't want to think too hard to become "biblically mature," like you guys claim to be.

 

[Split Rock]

I don't know -- certainly not to deceive us -- that's you guys' job.

Do you really think we are trying to deceive anyone here?

Please --

Did Jesus have to walk on water?

Can't God do anything without checking with you guys first?

No, apparently he needed to check with you guys first, since you know what he did and didn't do.

 

[SignOfGod]

With regard to your comment on the correlation of one's health and their spiritual health, I submit the following:

From Medscape, part of WebMD Health Professional Network that includes theHeart.org and eMedicine.com,

“Research in the US over the past 10 years has shown a clear correlation between affiliation to a religious group and better outcomes in terms of mental and physical health, and even longevity.”

Also from the World Health Organization: Mental Health: New Understanding, New Hope. Geneva, Switzerland, World Health Organization, 2001.

“In addition to understanding the relationship of personality to psychopathology, a mental health professional also needs to understand the relationship of personality to health as a state of physical, mental, social, and spiritual well-being…These findings show that health and happiness are correlated but made up of distinguishable components of physical, mental, and social well-being, as suggested by the World Health Organization definition of health (WHO, 1946).

I take it this includes the over 1.5 million Christians in prison in the US.

Please read this:
According to the (BJS) Bureau of Justice Statistics 7,225,800 people at year end 2009 were either in jail or prison or were on probation, — about 3.1% of adults in the U.S. resident population.2,292,133 were incarcerated in U.S. prisons and jails at year end 2009.

Given that 80% of people in the US profess to being Christians that would tell us that 1,650,000 million Christians are in Prison, let's say that half of those who say they are Christians are not really Christians, that still leaves at least 800,000 HEALTHY & HAPPY God fearing Christians behind bars.

I honestly wish I had a dream world I could pop into whenever the need arose, I envy you.

 

[Deaver]

Evolution requires populations of organisms able to imperfectly reproduce. If God had dropped the first life forms on earth and let them evolve, it would not change the theroy of evolution at all.

I think we have a point of of agreement. "If God had dropped the first life forms and let them evolve, it would not change the theory of evolution at all." Where we disagree, I am sure, is the point is that He didn't. He had a very ordered process of creation and the last of His creations was Man who was perfect when created.

The theory of evolution, especially as it realtes to man, skips the most important issue of the debate. Man was created perfect by God. Therefore, there is no evolution from something other than human. So in this case we would see microevolution - man adapting to his environment. Please don't say if man was perfect why microevolution. That will entail a whole discussion of the fall of man and sin and all sorts of other issues, I don't think we will agree on either.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Nope -- embedded age is: maturity without history.

How would you have done it differently?

After all, if you would have created a tree in a moment of time -- and that tree has fruit on it -- (not to mention height) -- then are you creating a 'fake history'?

Should Adam and Eve have starved to death so you wouldn't feel like we've been "deceived"?

Which leaves one to conlude an actual history, as this is parsimonious.

Nobody "did" anything.

There is no evidence that a real "Adam" or "Eve" ever existed. Allegorically, it's make for a neat story.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

I don't know -- certainly not to deceive us -- that's you guys' job.

Please --

Did Jesus have to walk on water?

Can't God do anything without checking with you guys first?

I do know, trying to squish reality into a literal understanding of an allegory creates more questions than it answers.

As for Jesus walking on water, laws of physics would preclude this from happening. It's more likely this was written as a legendary account. It can be difficult to distinguish the two for some people.

 

[SignOfGod]

As for Jesus walking on water, laws of physics would preclude this from happening. It's more likely this was written as a legendary account. It can be difficult to distinguish the two for some people.

I think it's down to what people want to believe rather that what's true, if a body needs to believe it's true then it's true.

 

[Deaver]

I take it this includes the over 1.5 million Christians in prison in the US.

Please read this:
According to the (BJS) Bureau of Justice Statistics 7,225,800 people at year end 2009 were either in jail or prison or were on probation, — about 3.1% of adults in the U.S. resident population.2,292,133 were incarcerated in U.S. prisons and jails at year end 2009.

Given that 80% of people in the US profess to being Christians that would tell us that 1,650,000 million Christians are in Prison, let's say that half of those who say they are Christians are not really Christians, that still leaves at least 800,000 HEALTHY & HAPPY God fearing Christians behind bars.

I honestly wish I had a dream world I could pop into whenever the need arose, I envy you.

If this reply shows up twice, I apologize.

What is your point? I thought we were discussing the correlation between physical health and spiritual health. There is no doubt that some professing Christians commit crimes. I have my thoughts on that but that is for another thread.

 

[Deaver]

I think it's down to what people want to believe rather that what's true, if a body needs to believe it's true then it's true.

I agree with that. Let me also add, we all have the same facts, where the major difference is the interpretaion. That interpretation is complicated by what we want to believe, on both sides of any issue.

 

[SignOfGod]

I agree with that. Let me also add, we all have the same facts, where the major difference is the interpretaion. That interpretation is complicated by what we want to believe, on both sides of any issue.

So are you saying we can have our own truth? because we all know that we can't have our own facts.