If Evolution were true...

[Tomatoman]

Reading a long post about someone's life with god is interesting. But probably not in the way they imagine.

Davian, Forty years... that's forty years. I've been young and now I'm not so young (in age that is) I've seen lots and lots in my life and been through lots and lots. I am a very open and honest person. I'm that way with God also. I say this because there is no way that I have not already tested God. He allows this because He would know I wasn't being honest if I didn't. Life brings us many things and questions along the way. That's one of the things my Father does. He answers my questions. I have never had a test or a question that I have not gone away from it believing MORE in God than I did before. I'm not afraid of God in ANY way. I LOVE God.

So you have had a relationship with an invisible friend all your life. I can see that would be a hard thing to give up.

I don't know how to make you see or understand that over the internet. I'm not religious. I'm not just a mamby pamby Christian. I question everything and everyone, including myself, and if it doesn't line up with the scriptures I don't accept it. I don't SEE the Word of God as you do. I don't believe men COULD have written what has been written in the Bible WITHOUT the influence of the Holy Spirit. All these writings were by individuals who lived hundreds and thousands of years apart and they did not conspire with each other to form a doctrine to bring all us Christians under their control.

So the bible is a collection of texts written by many authors over a long period of time, all good, but you can't see that it is full of contradictions, legends and mangled history because of that. Strange.

God does not work solely under some church building. He works in our individual lives.

It is human nature for people to see what they are looking for.

Yes, there may be some who fit your description but most true or mature Christians do not. When you are a true Christian you do not have to even know the person to know if they are a true Christian. I don't know AV or any of the other Christians here personally. I don't even know what their real names are or where they are from but I am one with them. I know exactly what they mean when they talk about the Bible and Christ. How can that be?

Because you are all interpreting the same experiences as religious/spiritual/evidence of god. These experiences are common to all humans. You, as a group, are choosing to ascribe them to god instead of regarding them rationally. In fact, if anyone tries to reinterpret these experiences for you in down to earth terms you will either (a) smile indulgently and reject the explanation as preposterous (b) get annoyed and reject the concept as preposterous. In both cases you won't even consider the possibility that your interpretation is wrong because your pride won't allow it and you don't want to lose god and heaven as concepts in your life. After all this time the loss would be unbearable.

I don't know them from Adam and yet, I know them. It's because we are one in the Spirit.... one in the family of God.... onne in Christ.

...or you are all making the same misinterpretation. People stick together when they have things in common, especially people in denial, like alcoholics or drug users. "I don't know them from adam and yet, I know them".

As to God's presence being measured or detected in some way there is a way but you must be born of the Spirit to experience it. God is a Spirit and to know Him you, too, must be alive in the spirit. You must be alive unto God.

Yes, you have to be actively encouraged to see things quite as you do.

When we are born into this world in the physical/natural we are not alive unto God. We have to receive Jesus His Son to become sons and daughters ourselves.... THEN you can know God and His presence. You won't see Him yet, but you can know Him.

And it takes a while to persuade people to see things in this way.

You told me what you think I believe. Now, let me tell you what I believe. I believe you are afraid to test God. I believe you can't move into the realm of the unseen because YOU are afraid that what you have been taught your whole life or what you have built your beliefs on will be shown to be false. Some of it IS false. You are afraid you will be mocked and ridiculed by possibly your family or friends ... and you just might be... but it's worth it to know the Lord.

Not exactly. It's just hard to attribute something to an invisible friend after hearing other explanations that actually make sense and don't require an invisible friend. It's very had to persuade someone that Father Christmas exists after they've seen their parents putting the stocking under the tree, and have done the maths involving numbers of children and chimneys he'll need to visit in one night, and have learnt that reindeers don't fly.

I think most atheists WANT us to PROVE God and SHOW us God

Well, it's a fun way of teasing people who insist on god's existence. And who knows, one day some evidence might be forthcoming.

and I wish I could but that is not how it works.

Coo. I wonder why?

YOU have to believe God is real or at least seek Him to find out for yourself.

Ah. You have to be actively looking to interpret things in a certain way.

God wants you to KNOW Him. Other Christians are here to help and support you but if ones faith was all based on other Christians.... well, you know how that would go. Christians are not perfect just new creatures growing all the time. If we did not have GOD Christianity really wouldn't be much at all. God is the focus of it all. God is the reality of it all. God is the Life and Spirit of it all.

So it requires constant encouragement from other people in order to maintain the worldview that you have adopted. This, of course, not being seen by you as evidence that your worldview is nothing more than a determined act of will.

I hope this is the post you were asking me to answer. If not please let me know.

I hope you don't mind me elbowing in and giving my two penneth.

 

[Tomatoman]

So you believe in the Mafia boss God then?

You don't have to pay the protection racket. You have a choice. But if you don't, your legs are going to get broken.

Would you describe a mafia boss as 'all loving'?

That's a very good analogy.

 

[SignOfGod]

It's very hard to persuade someone that Father Christmas exists after they've seen their parents putting the stocking under the tree, and have done the maths involving numbers of children and chimneys he'll need to visit in one night, and have learnt that reindeers don't fly.

Unless of course you are a creationist, being a creationists requires a person to be able to deny what they can see in favour of what they can not see, understandably the ability to do that doesn't come easy, it's an unnatural concept it therefore requires years and years of indoctrination in order to sufficiently distort the minds sense of reality.

 

[selfinflikted]

Regarding your signature... People don't get sent to hell. They are going there through birth BUT because Jesus died for their sins, they don't HAVE to settle for that. All they have to do is believe and receive personally what He has done for them. It's only those who refuse or reject His provision to keep them out of Hell that go there.

That doesn't answer the question.

 

[SignOfGod]

That doesn't answer the question.

You know yourself that not answering questions is what they do best.

 

[selfinflikted]

Let me take a try at answering your question:

I believe I can show verses in the Bible that are consistent with the following disciplines: Paleontology, Astronomy, Meteorology, Biology, Anthropology, Hydrology, Geology, Physics.

<snip>

I'm a little disappointed. I thought you were going to point me towards some research that proves some of the more outlandish claims made in the Bible to be true, and not merely the most mundane common knowledge at the time.

I do, however, take issue with this:

(bolding mine)

Today we know that a person&#8217;s mental and spiritual health is strongly correlated with physical health. As we search through scripture we find these scripture verses (and others) written by King Solomon about 950 BC.

Today, we know no such thing. That's simply conjecture, as the existence of anything "spiritual" is up for debate.

 

[selfinflikted]

You know yourself that not answering questions is what they do best.

But that's no reason to stop asking.

 

[AV1611VET]

Unless of course you are a creationist, being a creationists requires a person to be able to deny what they can see in favour of what they can not see...

You mean see -- as in see on paper?

I don't believe there's anything wrong with denying what you guys "see" (interpret) in rock formations, ice cores, tree rings or anything else.

If both of us looked at these things, we would physically see the exact same things, but a scientist would have his training, and a creationist would have his.

 

[AV1611VET]

You know yourself that not answering questions is what they do best.

Yup -- that's one of the things that has contributed to my post count: begging you guys for answers.

 

[AV1611VET]

But that's no reason to stop asking.

I don't -- that's one of the reasons my post count is so high.

 

[selfinflikted]

I don't -- that's one of the reasons my post count is so high.

I don't do it for the post count, I mostly do it in hopes that someone will actually stop and think about what they believe, why they believe it, and if it coincides with reality. Critical thinking FTW. Sometimes, though, I do it for the lulz.

 

[Psudopod]

I don't believe there's anything wrong with denying what you guys "see" (interpret) in rock formations, ice cores, tree rings or anything else.

If both of us looked at these things, we would physically see the exact same things, but a scientist would have his training, and a creationist would have his.

But it is often possible to say why one view might be wrong. Two conflicting answers cannot be right, so we need to look for falsification. It's not always necessarily possible straight away, sometimes we haven't got the technology to prove it for example. Even then one view will often have more collaberating evidence than the other, or provide a better explanation.

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't do it for the post count...

Ya -- the post count would be a byproduct of repetition -- as well as a testament to it.

 

[Deaver]

I'm a little disappointed. I thought you were going to point me towards some research that proves some of the more outlandish claims made in the Bible to be true, and not merely the most mundane common knowledge at the time.

I do, however, take issue with this:

(bolding mine)



Today, we know no such thing. That's simply conjecture, as the existence of anything "spiritual" is up for debate.

No need to be disappointed, my point is that the research by scientists supports what is in the Bible. If you have contrary information, please share it and we can discuss on a point by point analysis.

With regard to your comment on the correlation of one's health and their spiritual health, I submit the following:

From Medscape, part of WebMD Health Professional Network that includes theHeart.org and eMedicine.com,

“Research in the US over the past 10 years has shown a clear correlation between affiliation to a religious group and better outcomes in terms of mental and physical health, and even longevity.”

Also from the World Health Organization: Mental Health: New Understanding, New Hope. Geneva, Switzerland, World Health Organization, 2001.

“In addition to understanding the relationship of personality to psychopathology, a mental health professional also needs to understand the relationship of personality to health as a state of physical, mental, social, and spiritual well-being…These findings show that health and happiness are correlated but made up of distinguishable components of physical, mental, and social well-being, as suggested by the World Health Organization definition of health (WHO, 1946).

 

[AV1611VET]

Two conflicting answers cannot be right, so we need to look for falsification.

Yes they can -- if the two conflicting answers come from the same source, then, yes, we probably have a contradiction; but if the two conflicting answers come from two different sources (viz. God and science), then we probably have a paradox.

This is why I believe the earth can be both 6015 years old (existentially), and 4.57 billion years old (physically).

 

[selfinflikted]

No need to be disappointed, my point is that the research by scientists supports what is in the Bible. If you have contrary information, please share it and we can discuss on a point by point analysis.

I'm tempted to bring up things like "The Flood", talking animals, "Adam and Eve", etc etc. Science and the Bible do not agree on things like that. But, those issues have been discussed to death, there are already multiple threads on them, and I honestly don't feel like discussing it now because I can predict that nothing will come of such a discussion, as it hasn't in the past.

With regard to your comment on the correlation of one's health and their spiritual health, I submit the following:

From Medscape, part of WebMD Health Professional Network that includes theHeart.org and eMedicine.com,

“Research in the US over the past 10 years has shown a clear correlation between affiliation to a religious group and better outcomes in terms of mental and physical health, and even longevity.”

Also from the World Health Organization: Mental Health: New Understanding, New Hope. Geneva, Switzerland, World Health Organization, 2001.

“In addition to understanding the relationship of personality to psychopathology, a mental health professional also needs to understand the relationship of personality to health as a state of physical, mental, social, and spiritual well-being…These findings show that health and happiness are correlated but made up of distinguishable components of physical, mental, and social well-being, as suggested by the World Health Organization definition of health (WHO, 1946).

It's no secret that religion makes some people happy, and there certainly is a correlation between happiness and good health/well-being. But that still doesn't address "spiritual health."

 

[jpcedotal]

Yes they can -- if the two conflicting answers come from the same source, then, yes, we probably have a contradiction; but if the two conflicting answers come from two different sources (viz. God and science), then we probably have a paradox.

This is why I believe the earth can be both 6015 years old (existentially), and 4.57 billion years old (physically).

yep

fruit trees were created by God with fruit on them. If we could have cut this "one second old" trees down, it would have rings showing it was a mature tree.

The whole age debate falls short to Christians who believe the Bible literally because the Bible already answers this question for us. We do not have to dig around or put a bunch of different commentaries/theories together. The answer is right there plain as day (24 hours).

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

I don't -- that's one of the reasons my post count is so high.

You'd have a couple thousand posts if it wasn't for the counting threads, mister. Don't play it off like your 1.8 million posts are all philosophizing and thought experiments and logical treatises.

 

[Deaver]

I'm tempted to bring up things like "The Flood", talking animals, "Adam and Eve", etc etc. Science and the Bible do not agree on things like that. But, those issues have been discussed to death, there are already multiple threads on them, and I honestly don't feel like discussing it now because I can predict that nothing will come of such a discussion, as it hasn't in the past.

It's no secret that religion makes some people happy, and there certainly is a correlation between happiness and good health/well-being. But that still doesn't address "spiritual health."

I agree that these things have been discussed alot. Having said that, I am not sure science and the bible disagree. You have to keep in mind some things can be taken literally, for example "The Flood", "Adam and Eve" and others "talking animals" may be more allegorical in nature.

With regard to "spiritual health", I am not sure what your point is. I don't like to avoid discussion, but I really am missing your point on "spiritual health".

 

[AV1611VET]

yep

fruit trees were created by God with fruit on them. If we could have cut this "one second old" trees down, it would have rings showing it was a mature tree.

The whole age debate falls short to Christians who believe the Bible literally because the Bible already answers this question for us. We do not have to dig around or put a bunch of different commentaries/theories together. The answer is right there plain as day (24 hours).