Transgender and the church

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OllieFranz

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Your right I haven't spoken to him but he has spoken to me in Deuteronomy 22:5, Leviticus 20:18...the story of sodom in Genesis. Some of Paul's teachings in his letters to Corinth, ephesians and many other Scriptures in the Bible.
None of which speak of Gender identity dysphoria or sexual reassignment surgery, or of anything else related to the transgender so-called "lifestyle." (Other than the command against cross-dressing, which even Deuteronomy the command is intended to be treated the same as the commands forbidding eunuchs from worshipping in the Tabernacle, the planting of two kinds of grain in the same field*, or instructing a man who has had a wet dream to go off on his own in the desert in the morning and avoid other people for the entire day, or to place a safety railing around a rooftop patio.)

*which precludes raising both a "summer" and a "winter" crop on a small plot.
 
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brightmorningstar

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David Brider,
So you assume that everyone of a particular sexual orientation chooses the same actions as a result of that orientation?
You have already been corrected in this many times. There is no such concept of sexual orientation in the Bible, all the Bible does is outline the correct man woman faithful union and prohibit error such as same sex relations. How you fit transgender to that is the question, but sexual orientation is wrong ungodly and unBiblical thinking and will only lead to error.

A person who wishes to honour God with their body, will do so with the body they haev, not change the body to suit their thinking.
 
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OllieFranz

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Olliefranz,
Ok so where does that idea come from? You need to give some scriptural support for it in the first place.
I will, just as soon as you give me scriptural support for open-heart surgery, or hospitals' machine-assisted life support procedures, or condemn them as not being scripturally supported and therefore automatically wrong.
 
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zairsmith

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So you assume that everyone of a particular sexual orientation chooses the same actions as a result of that orientation?

David.

No you assume that I assume...those who choose those actions that oppose the Scripture are who I am referring to....why, have you not spoken about the Scripture? Why do you question things that aren't relevant to the issue at hand which is how should the church view LGBT actions....? I gave you the Scripture on how God views it....now its up to you to read and determine for yourself...I refuse to continue to debate irrelevant material.

I am bowing out in love...I will no longer debate irrelevancy. If you have something substantial...I will consider and attempt to respond scriptural if possible

God bless....
 
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zairsmith

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None of which speak of Gender identity dysphoria or sexual reassignment surgery, or of anything else related to the transgender so-called "lifestyle." (Other than the command against cross-dressing, which even Deuteronomy the command is intended to be treated the same as the commands forbidding eunuchs from worshipping in the Tabernacle, the planting of two kinds of grain in the same field*, or instructing a man who has had a wet dream to go off on his own in the desert in the morning and avoid other people for the entire day, or to place a safety railing around a rooftop patio.)

*which precludes raising both a "summer" and a "winter" crop on a small plot.

DEU 22:5 specifies how a man/woman should dress.

Gen 1:27,28 tells us God created men and women...no matter how many surgeries given a man will never have a woman's anatomy and vice versa...simply not how God made them.

Gen 2:7 tells us that He formed man out of the dust and gave man His spirit...God can not contradict Himself so if we have his spirit as our life force why would he except us deciding for ourselves what we are to fo with this spirit other than exalt Him that gave us life and formed our anatomy and put our spirit in the anatomy (gender if you will) He formed.

What this says is once a man always a man...vice versa for women. No matter how many surgeries you undergo if God didn't place you spirit in that specific set up man shouldn't try to. For man can not change or undo what God has done.

What are you suggesting with the rooftop patio?
 
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Jase

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I was reading through this thread and just wanted to correct someone on a couple of things.

I am not sure where you pulled this idea from, but Jesus taught a spherical earth.
No he didn't. Never is a spherical earth introduced in the Bible (and the Earth isn't exactly a sphere anyway).

In one passage He tells of His coming in the day and a few verses later He tells of His coming in the middle of the night. That makes perfect sense as we know that for half the world it is day at any given time and night for the other half. That ONLY happens on a spherical earth.
Um, you're arbitrarily making that up. Nothing in that verse indicates both events are happening at the same time on each side of the planet.

So, in Leviticus 18 when it talks about not laying with another man as one would with a woman, that's not talking about homosexuality?
No, it's talking about pagan prostitution. Read the beginning of Leviticus 18. It's warning the Israelites from following the ways of the Caananites. In Caananite culture, heterosexual men would go to the temples of the fertility goddesses, and have anal sex with the temple prostitutes to gain favor with the gods. This view is further supported by Deuteronomy as well as extra-biblical evidence like Philo (an expert on Jewish law, who said Moses was prohibiting pagan prostitution in that verse).

The Bible was not written in English. That verse does not have the same meaning in Hebrew.

What could be more of a definition of homosexuality? Earlier on in that chapter it says not to lay with one's mother. Do you think that is not talking about incest?
Homosexuality means "the predisposition to be attracted to members of the same sex". It's a state of being not an act. Plenty of straight men throughout history have had sexual relations with other men, and were not homosexuals. Sex acts with pagan prostitutes is not the definition of homosexuality. Sexual orientation (and homosexuality) was not discovered until 1900 A.D. There was no concept of "homosexual" in Biblical days.
 
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zairsmith

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Jade,

Let's assume God is ok with homosexuality....why would He say you are not to lie with man, as with woman. Why is marriage defined in the Bible as man/woman a man is to leave his family and cleave to his wife. Model of the first marriage ordained by God man/woman...why anytime marriage is mentioned in the Bible its always man/woman? Why make procreation between only man/woman? Why not make humans like seahorses asexual? Why put so much effort into the distinction of man and woman? Even down to how they are to dress?

Just a few questions to think about.
 
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Jase

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LGBT = Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender....

If in fact anybody practice these lifestyles they can not honor God. The Bible tells us that just dressing up as a woman when you are a man is an abomination and vice versa.

Read Deuteronomy 22:5... if just dressing like a woman is an abomination unto the LORD how much more is it an abomination to him to have a sex change?
Abomination is a mistranslation and the Torah also says wearing cotton/poly blends is an abomination. Do you follow that law? Stop cherry picking the Bible. Unless you follow all 613 Mitzvot, you have no right to condemn other people with the Law.
 
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zairsmith

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Abomination is a mistranslation and the Torah also says wearing cotton/poly blends is an abomination. Do you follow that law? Stop cherry picking the Bible. Unless you follow all 613 Mitzvot, you have no right to condemn other people with the Law.

Seeing that I am not God I can not condemn...I simply mentioned what the Bible says...just as Jesus quoted from the OT. Those who feel condemnation are those who spirit is in alliance with what is said in the Scripture I used to formulate my reasoning.
 
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Jase

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Your right I haven't spoken to him but he has spoken to me in Deuteronomy 22:5, Leviticus 20:18...the story of sodom in Genesis. Some of Paul's teachings in his letters to Corinth, ephesians and many other Scriptures in the Bible.
Why is it that you continue to make claims without understanding them? Leviticus 20 is about pagan prostitution, as are Paul's letters. Sodom was not about homosexuality. That is one of the biggest lies in Biblical history. Rape of angels is not homosexuality. Read Judges 19. Same basic story, but the men are obviously straight as they also raped a woman. Deuteronomy 22:5 is not against Transgenderism, and you ignore the entire Torah. Why are you condemning people with it?

You will be held accountable for how you judge others. Do you want God to judge you based on the Torah, when you ignore 99% of the Mitzvot?

This thread is a perfect example of why I'm starting to despise modern day Christianity. The amount of misinformation and self-righteous condemnation is beyond words.
 
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Jase

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Seeing that I am not God I can not condemn...I simply mentioned what the Bible says..
Bible was not written in English or in the 21st Century. You're inaccurately understanding scripture.

.just as Jesus quoted from the OT. Those who feel condemnation are those who spirit is in alliance with what is said in the Scripture quoted.
Jesus read the Torah in Hebrew in a very different culture. You are applying 21st Century English and understanding on to the text, and it's leading you to make glaring errors to its meaning.
 
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zairsmith

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Bible was not written in English or in the 21st Century. You're inaccurately understanding scripture.

Jesus read the Torah in Hebrew in a very different culture. You are applying 21st Century English and understanding on to the text, and it's leading you to make glaring errors to its meaning.

I take it you are a Biblical scholar and expert...so majority of our churches if not all of them are in direct opposition to Gods TRUE word, not to mention the many Bible experts of today who share my same views... We'll see when we meet God either I'm wrong or your wrong...and I will leave it at that.
 
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zairsmith

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Looking at the OP the two key outstanding questions I have are,
Was the sex change after the marriage? If so the vows made were not the man and woman presented as such.
Secondly he/she made the sex change before faith in Christ. This is the key bit. If he/she now knows the truth in Christ he/she can be forgiven.

I agree...sorry for the tangent according to Jase it doesn't matter if this person repents since its not a sin to sleep with another man. Mainly because our Bibles are mistranslated and therefore interpreted wrong.
 
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OllieFranz

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DEU 22:5 specifies how a man/woman should dress.

As I acknowledged. See below

Gen 1:27,28 tells us God created men and women...no matter how many surgeries given a man will never have a woman's anatomy and vice versa...simply not how God made them.

And what about those who God created with mixed anatomy -- including brains that are structurally and biochemically different from their genitalia?

Gen 2:7 tells us that He formed man out of the dust and gave man His spirit...God can not contradict Himself so if we have his spirit as our life force why would he except us deciding for ourselves what we are to fo with this spirit other than exalt Him that gave us life and formed our anatomy and put our spirit in the anatomy (gender if you will) He formed.

And our anatomy includes our brains as well as our genitalia.

What this says is once a man always a man...vice versa for women. No matter how many surgeries you undergo if God didn't place you spirit in that specific set up man shouldn't try to. For man can not change or undo what God has done.

What about the inter-sexed? (This group includes people whose physical gender is indeterminate, from classic hermaphrodites to persons with extra or missing sex chromosomes.) Even with your insular view of transgender, that statement is clearly not complete.

What are you suggesting with the rooftop patio?

All of the commands I listed, including the cross-dressing one, come from the same two chapters of Deuteronomy (22 and 23), and are given exactly the same weight.

(Other than the command against cross-dressing [22:5], which even Deuteronomy the command is intended to be treated the same as the commands forbidding eunuchs from worshipping in the Tabernacle [23:1], the planting of two kinds of grain in the same field*[22:9], or instructing a man who has had a wet dream to go off on his own in the desert in the morning and avoid other people for the entire day [23:10-11], or to place a safety railing around a rooftop patio [22:8].)
 
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Jase

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Olliefranz,
Ok so where does that idea come from? You need to give some scriptural support for it in the first place.
BMS, 99% of the things that have or will have existed in this universe, are not supported in scripture. That is such an absurd argument.

Give me support for your use of the computer and internet in scripture, and we might take you more seriously.
 
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Jase

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It tells me that's LGBT is unghastly in the eyes of God and that he hates it.
Where does it say God hates LGBTs? Once again, learn the meaning of the Hebrew before making up your own descriptors.

“You can safely assume you have created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates the same people you do.” --Annie Lamott
 
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Jase

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Jade,

Let's assume God is ok with homosexuality....why would He say you are not to lie with man, as with woman.
Well, in Hebrew, it says a man shall not force/deceive another man to have anal sex (submissive position) in beds of a woman. Beds of woman (which is an important conditional clause) does not translate well into English. It's important, because a man cannot lay with another man the way he would a woman. So it either refers to the location, or the submissive nature of the act (since women were property). That verse is specifically referring to the behavior of the pagan prostitutes in Caananite temples. Moses declared that the Isrealites (and they alone) are not to behave like the Caananites, which meant not engaging in sex rituals with pagan prostitutes. This is confirmed in Deuteronomy 23, where Moses tells the Israelites not to become Temple prostitutes. The Torah is filled with commands meant to separate the Israelites as a people from their neighboring cultures. That does not apply to the 21st Century or Christians, as they are not Israelites and don't participate in the pagan worship rituals of neighboring cultures.

Another reason we know it's not referring to homosexuality is that based on Jewish law, the burden of proof was astronomical to charge someone with a violation of Torah. There were many many conditions including that there had to be 4 witnesses to a man lying with another man (meaning it had to be done in public spaces), and the men had to have been warned of the act.

No man has ever been charged with that crime according to the Talmud.

Why is marriage defined in the Bible as man/woman a man is to leave his family and cleave to his wife. Model of the first marriage ordained by God man/woman...why anytime marriage is mentioned in the Bible its always man/woman? Why make procreation between only man/woman? Why not make humans like seahorses asexual? Why put so much effort into the distinction of man and woman? Even down to how they are to dress?
Marriage isn't defined only as man/woman, that's merely the only type mentioned because it was the only type prevalent at the time. The Bible does not deal with minority exceptions. It doesn't talk about how an intersex individual is supposed to behave either, because they were a minority.

The Bible is directed at the general audience, not some unknown group of people.

There is so much distinction of man and woman, because the Bible is written in Patriarchial societies, where men were superior, and women were property. Therefore, women had to be put in their place. But society is not static. It has changed for thousands and thousands of years, and will continue to change. The Bible is directed to specific cultures. The entire thing cannot be applied universally for all time. The Torah "ceremonial laws" were for the Israelites in 3000 B.C., not for Americans in the 21st Century.

Just a few questions to think about.
I've thought about them for over a decade, and your sides arguments are not compelling. Throwing out English verses of scripture out of context does not a good argument make.
 
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