Transgender and the church

[OllieFranz]

But then the OP really didn't set up those kind of scenarios. The OP was talking about someone who WILLFULLY did it and thus lived a life OUT OF MERE CHOICE.

No one chooses to be transgendered. Would you choose to live from early childhood on with almost everyone you know not believing you about your core being -- who you are? Trying to force you to think of yourself in ways that are just wrong. To have to deal every day people telling you that your problem is all in your head? Or worse, telling you that you are lying and just being stubborn?

The OP talked about a M2F transsexual. It did not talk about someone who chose to "play the woman." (See my last paragraph.)

About a year and a half ago, there was another thread on this subject. Back then I wrote:

I cannot understand someone with GID, either. That does not, however, mean that I cannot relate to them. I know what it is to be different from all my peers, to not entirely fit in with the "guys," and to know that although I know that it is my genetics at fault, most people think it's all in my head. I have Asperger's, a form of AS (Autism Spectrum) condition. Asperger's is the most high-functioning version of AS, and is often accompanied by high intellegence and many "Aspies" seem almost normal, if somewhat nerdy.

While there are strategies that Aspies can learn to fit in a little better, there is no "cure." So yes, I can relate to those with GID.

That there is a procedure that allows someone with GID to live an almost perfectly normal life is a blessing for them and I, for one, am glad that it available to them. So what if it is "unnatural"? A lot of medical procedures were once considered "unnatural." For some religious sects (for example, Christian Scientists and Jehovah's Witnesses), the procedures, even simple ones such as blood transfusions, are still forbidden.

It's still true.

These scenarios you have listed are obviously problems and mutations. I am not going to argue that.

Good.

Because the vast majority of M2F transsexual are probably the result of the third scenario. They are born with normal male bodies, but because of the hormone imbalance at the time the structure of the brain was set, it is a female brain. There is no way for today's medicine to remake the brain to agree with the body. Remaking the body to agree with the brain is possible, but it is risky, and keeping the body hormonally balanced has lifelong consequences. It is never done on a whim. It is only done because there are no other options.

 

[OllieFranz]

Alcohol is bad for unborn babies. They tell mamas not to drink. Cocaine is bad for unborn babies. They tell mamas not to smoke crack. Even ciggies are bad for unborn babies. They tell mamas not to smoke. Are you starting to see a trend here? Mamas shouldn't do stuff that would be bad for babies.

Defects happen, I understand that. When defects happen naturally, that's one thing. You are talking about something from "The Island of Doctor Moreau".

In Christ,GB

Estrogen is not taken by pregnant women as a recreational drug. It is prescribed by doctors to ease very real problems that occur during pregnancy. Care is taken not to administer too much, but there is a very fine line between an effective dose for the mother, and a dangerous dose for the fetus.

On top of that the mother is producing natural estrogen of her own. If production should spike at the wrong time, whether a small spike to nudge an artificially raised estrogen level, or a large spike in an entirely natural estrogen level, the effects are the same.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Cuddles222,
Ok if it’s the same word, then the ability to reproduce will depend on the physical equipment being available.

LoraElise,

Does honoring God with your body mean suffering horribly every minute of every day, and agonizing every single time you look into a mirror because the outward person you see there does not match who you are?

No, that’s exactly the opposite of what it means. If one lives out the truth, the truth sets them free and their joy is complete. The world doesn’t realise it chooses to believe its feelings or circumstances in a fallen world rather than God’s word and how God sees them. One either believes God and His word or one believes their feelings. Your response doesn’t reflect honouring God but the feelings of the person.

I repeat from earlier: the Bible is silent on gender dysphoria -- and its NT treatment of eunuchs, the closest comparable issue, is one of compassion and inclusion.

Probably yes, so eunuchs were celibate.

You see you say you are astonished at the profound lack of compassion on this board and in so many church congregations, but then you show why the church is right by saying “gender identity is one of the few certainties of life” That’s putting ones identity in their sex. That’s LGBT stuff. Then you say it isnt about sex, for your argument yes it is.

 

[David Brider]

My "beef" is with those who obviously choose to stay in a sinful "lifestyle" after they've accepted the Lord.

OK...in the OP, the situation given is of a couple, one a man and one a woman; the woman is transgender - she was born a man, experienced gender dysphoria, and so had gender reassignment surgery.

Couple of questions for you: firstly, what aspect of their lifestyles do you believe to be sinful? Provide Scriptural back-up for that if possible - as others have pointed out, the Bible doesn't seem to have anything to say about trsnsgender, so I'd be very curious to know what Scriptures you'd see as applicable.

And secondly, what aspects of their lifestyles do you think they should change? I mean, short of somehow reversing the gender reassignment surgery (I'm not even sure if that's possible, but...), I don't see any other way that the couple can meaningfully change what you perceive to be wrong or sinful about their lifestyles.

David.

 

[brightmorningstar]

David Brider,
Nope ,you are not making sense.

the woman is transgender

So she isnt a woman but a trangender?

- she was born a man,

Sorry, don’t you mean he was born a man?

Now I suggest you first provide scriptural back up for the idea that a sex change should occur seeing as the the Bible doesn't seem to have anything to say about trsnsgender. You are proposing something the Bible doesn’t refer to and then asking another to provide scripture to support their argument. If good brother is alert he will not expect to have to prove his argument with scripture when you cant with yours.

The question I have posed is, can the person in question reproduce as a female? Have they really become a woman? The physically disabled may not be able to have sex, but as disciples of Christ their identity is in Christ. The Christian man with no arms may not be able to lift his hands in worship but His identity is in Christ.

Explain to me why the person has to have a sex change? Why is it seemingly that some people can live celibate but some liberal thinking is that they cant?

 

[LoraElise]

No, that’s exactly the opposite of what it means. If one lives out the truth, the truth sets them free and their joy is complete.

Spiritually, yes. But we're talking about gender identity, not who we are in Christ. And God doesn't see us in terms of gender, by the way -- we are all one in our Lord.

Probably yes, so eunuchs were celibate.

They pretty much had to be. So, you're fine with a gender dysphoric who transitions, then remains celibate?

You see you say you are astonished at the profound lack of compassion on this board and in so many church congregations, but then you show why the church is right by saying “gender identity is one of the few certainties of life”

The Church didn't say that. I did. It is one of the few things to which most people never have to give a thought, because who they are in brain and who they are in outward body match. This is like someone with plenty of food, who has never gone hungry, saying that starving people should 'just deal with it.' And yes, that attitude is astonishingly without compassion, if not cruel.

That’s putting ones identity in their sex. That’s LGBT stuff. Then you say it isnt about sex, for your argument yes it is.

Okay hon, I'm going to assume here that you're simply being obstinate.

 

[jennimatts]

Sorry, don’t you mean he was born a man?

She was born anatomically male, but after the sex change, she is a woman.

...can the person in question reproduce as a female? Have they really become a woman?

There are many who are born female that cannot reproduce for various reasons. Unless I misunderstand, it seems you are suggesting they aren't really women and it is a sin for them to marry?

Explain to me why the person has to have a sex change? Why is it seemingly that some people can live celibate but some liberal thinking is that they cant?

A person with gender dysphoria undergoes a sex change in order to be whole. Having a sex change is unrelated to living or not living a celebate life. For a person with gender dysphoria living a celebate life will in no way alleviate the condition.

 

[jennimatts]

...you're arguing that Christians should accept a transsexual who is unrepentant...

Someone who has been diagnosed with a medical condition and undergoes treatment has no need to repent of having had medical treatment, and a persons medical history is not anyone else's business.

 

[LoraElise]

jennimatts, thank you for your posts. They are well thought out and presented.

Please contact me. I'd love to chat with you.

 

[brightmorningstar]

LoraElise,

Spiritually, yes.

No, not just spiritually, drugs satisfy the drug taker’s body’s cravings but it is not good.

But we're talking about gender identity, not who we are in Christ.

I am pointing out who we are in Christ is what counts to God, not someone’s feelings. This is the problem, your argument is rooted in people’s feelings and not in the truth of God.

And God doesn't see us in terms of gender, by the way -- we are all one in our Lord.

So why did you say you are talking about gender identity and not who we are in Christ? You have just demonstrated to yourself your error.

They pretty much had to be.

Ok so whats all the sex change stuff then if by your own admission the Biblical example is celibate?

So, you're fine with a gender dysphoric who transitions, then remains celibate?

It the thinking that’s wrong, not the people.

The Church didn't say that. I did.

Yes and its not based in God’s word or the truth so it shows why the church are right to be as they are and what you call uncompassionate.

Okay hon, I'm going to assume here that you're simply being obstinate, because no one could possibly really be this uncomprehending.

That’s the way it goes, the objection to the church’s position, then the reasoning and the accusation because the reasoning is offensive. God is love, He does not see in the person of faith the limitations of gender dysphoria you are describing.

 

[David Brider]

So she isnt a woman but a trangender? Sorry, don’t you mean he was born a man?

No. From the Wikipedia article on transgender:

When referring to a transgender person, it is respectful to always use that person's preferred name and pronoun regardless of their legal gender status (as not all transgender people can afford surgery or other body modifications).

Now I suggest you first provide scriptural back up for the idea that a sex change should occur seeing as the the Bible doesn't seem to have anything to say about trsnsgender. You are proposing something the Bible doesn’t refer to and then asking another to provide scripture to support their argument.

No, I'm asking - since, as far as anyone can tell, the Bible is silent on the issue of transgender - how good brother can scripturally justify his position that being transgender is a sin.

The question I have posed is, can the person in question reproduce as a female?

And the answer you've been given is no. The person can't reproduce.

Have they really become a woman?

Yes.

Explain to me why the person has to have a sex change?

They don't have to. Gender reassignment surgery is one of the treatments for gender identiy disorder. Many people with gender identiy disorder choose gender reassignment surgery.

Why is it seemingly that some people can live celibate but some liberal thinking is that they cant?

What does celibacy have to do with it?

David.

 

[brightmorningstar]

jennimatts,

She was born anatomically male,

Nope, ‘she’ means female. He was born a man, his feelings were not in line with his physical sex.

There are many who are born female that cannot reproduce for various reasons.

The question was clarified, does this person have the physical equipment to reproduce as a woman, or is it a cosmetic surgery?

A person with gender dysphoria undergoes a sex change in order to be whole.

No, no, first answer the question, is this person able to reproduce as woman, because if not they cant be called ‘whole’

Having a sex change is unrelated to living or not living a celebate life. For a person with gender dysphoria living a celebate life will in no way alleviate the condition.

Ok, so they marriage in the OP was optional? which means they wont mind the church’s reaction. Many Christians are able to marry but never find a partner, many are disabled and unable to live as others do. What is the problem?

 

[LoraElise]

...it shows why the church are right to be as they are and what you call uncompassionate.

I see. The Church is right to be uncompassionate. Amazing.

Let them eat cake, right?

God is love, He does not see in the person of faith the limitations of gender dysphoria you are describing. [/color]

But gender dysphorics of faith suffer the agony of those 'limitations' every day. If you really, really think God (who you mentioned is love) wants them to live in abject misery due to a birth defect, perhaps you need to rethink your definition of love.

 

[LoraElise]

Now I suggest you first provide scriptural back up for the idea that a sex change should occur seeing as the the Bible doesn't seem to have anything to say about trsnsgender.

I don't recall the Bible saying much about quadruple bypass surgery or Wankel rotary engines, either.

The Bible says nothing about it, yet you condemn it. I see.

 

[brightmorningstar]

David Brider,

No. From the Wikipedia article on transgender:

Sorry the wiki even says there is no precise definition and is about as confused as one can get with all the sexuality rubbish. No I do not accept the suggestion as to what to refer. This is designed to make out unless one goes along with it one is being disrespectful. Tough we don’t look to please man but God.
He was born a man.

No, I'm asking - since, as far as anyone can tell, the Bible is silent on the issue of transgender - how good brother can scripturally justify his position that being transgender is a sin.

As I said, since you have no scripture to support your concept of transgender then don’t expect others to provide scripture in arguing against it.

And the answer you've been given is no. The person can't reproduce.

Ok, could they reproduce as the man? There is the answer to your thinking.

Yes.

the answer is obviously no.

They don't have to.

Ok, so whats the problem with the church’s position in the OP?

What does celibacy have to do with it?

the person in the OP was claimed to be married.

Your arguments are all LGBT based thinking, if this person in the OP had this thinking I would also support the church not accepting their situation. If however they were a new creation in Christ since that and trying to follow Christ in the circumstances, I would have no problem.

 

[brightmorningstar]

David Brider,

No. From the Wikipedia article on transgender:

Sorry the wiki even says there is no precise definition and is about as confused as one can get with all the sexuality rubbish. No I do not accept the suggestion as to what to refer. This is designed to make out unless one goes along with it one is being disrespectful. Tough we don’t look to please man but God.
He was born a man.

No, I'm asking - since, as far as anyone can tell, the Bible is silent on the issue of transgender - how good brother can scripturally justify his position that being transgender is a sin.

As I said, since you have no scripture to support your concept of transgender then don’t expect others to provide scripture in arguing against it.

And the answer you've been given is no. The person can't reproduce.

Ok, could they reproduce as the man? There is the answer to your thinking.

Yes.

the answer is obviously no.

They don't have to.

Ok, so whats the problem with the church’s position in the OP?

What does celibacy have to do with it?

the person in the OP was claimed to be married.

Your arguments are all LGBT based thinking, if this person in the OP had this thinking I would also support the church not accepting their situation. If however they were a new creation in Christ since that and trying to follow Christ in the circumstances, I would have no problem.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Texas court affirms sex cannot be changed | LifeSiteNews.com

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Jase,
Homosexuality is a sin, we have all seen what the Bible says and the LGBT denial.

Overeating and drinking to excess are also sins and as such bring the same penalty to a person outside of Christ.

What the Lord does is to change a person's heart first, then goes to work in the believer to enable them to live a holy life.

The Pharisees forced the people in Israel to live by a set of rules with penalties for infractions.

Jesus totally opposed this and showed the true original standard of the Law of Moses. He taught that it can only be followed by a person having a new heart.

Therefore, imposing a set of external rules will attract the same rebuke from Jesus as the rebuke He gave to the Pharisees.

Therefore, we know that God loves transgenders and homosexuals as much as He loves any other church members. Some church members look only on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart.

I believe that a homosexual can be as much saved as anyone else, and maybe the homosexuality may be a thorn in the flesh for that person for a long time, and for a believer with a new heart, this will drive him or her deeper into dependence on Christ as they seek Him to be able to live a holy life.

So, I wonder how the "lawgivers" are going to deal with a transgender person? Are they going to reject that person because of it? What if that person is genuinely converted to Christ? Can we trust God that if He doesn't like what that person is that He can and will change them into the person He wants them to be?

Do we believe that the Holy Spirit knows how to change a person into the likeness of Jesus? Even a homosexual or transgender person? Or does he need the help of legalistic and pharisaical lawgivers to use guilt, threats of punishment, and general rejection to help Him along?

If a rebuke comes from Jesus, then who will be the subject of the rebuke? (Clue: The only people whom Jesus rebuked was the Pharisee lawgivers who imposed their corrupted version of the Law on ordinary people).

 

[brightmorningstar]

Overeating and drinking to excess are also sins and as such bring the same penalty to a person outside of Christ.

Which is the same as Phinehas2 saying homosexuality is sin.

Therefore, we know that God loves transgenders and homosexuals as much as He loves any other church members.

God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that whoever believes shall not perish but have eternal life. There is no evidence God even recognises ‘transgenders’ and ‘homosexuals’, there is however His word that He died so that anyone who believes can be saved.

Some church members look only on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart.

This is true, but there no scriptural support for the concepts of ‘transgender’ and ‘homosexual’ which have come form the heart of the person. I think in dealing with the world, Christians need to appreciate Christ needs to change the person’s heart, but this is the Christian section with Christian posters. We need to discuss this from the Christian position and not the worldly one. Yes we must make sure we dont judge people with worldly thinking who consider themselves transgendered and homosexual, but we need sound thinking.

I believe that a homosexual can be as much saved as anyone else, and maybe the homosexuality may be a thorn in the flesh for that person for a long time, and for a believer with a new heart, this will drive him or her deeper into dependence on Christ as they seek Him to be able to live a holy life.

Yes this does happen.

So, I wonder how the "lawgivers" are going to deal with a transgender person? Are they going to reject that person because of it? What if that person is genuinely converted to Christ? Can we trust God that if He doesn't like what that person is that He can and will change them into the person He wants them to be?

The person who is confused in having their identity in Christ is arguably not yet genuinely converted to Christ. Christ’s NT teaching did not tolerate wrong thinking, it corrected it, both Jesus with the disciples and the apostles with the churches.

Do we believe that the Holy Spirit knows how to change a person into the likeness of Jesus?

Yes, we not only know we see it where people cease referring to themselves as having their identity as transgender and homosexual, and start seeing their identity in Christ.

The only people whom Jesus rebuked was the Pharisee lawgivers who imposed their corrupted version of the Law on ordinary people).

Quite right, and do you not think Jesus will also do that to those who corrupt His teaching by introducing their own concepts of what the think God has created?

 

[LoraElise]

So, I wonder how the "lawgivers" are going to deal with a transgender person? Are they going to reject that person because of it? ... If a rebuke comes from Jesus, then who will be the subject of the rebuke? (Clue: The only people whom Jesus rebuked was the Pharisee lawgivers who imposed their corrupted version of the Law on ordinary people).

(edited only for length, not content)

Thank you, Oscarr.