Do you agree that christians should keep the 10 Commandments? (4)

[from scratch]

Christ did do away with certain aspects of the law. There is no more sacrifice now because Christ was the ultimate sacrifice. We don't worry about circumcision because it is not the flesh but the heart.

But those pesky ten...

Yeah those bad boys still exist and are still in force. You sure you don't see any significance in revelation where John sees the ark of His covenant?

A great example of Jesus bypassing the requirements of the law is found in John 8:1-11.

 

[11822]

Why should i be called names or feel hated for obeying the law or even posting law given by the apostles? Here is Paul talking about this very thing. And Paul is only talking about non important food laws and laws that govern observing of days, yet he shows love and tolerance to the keepers of these worthless laws. Im left with a feeling of not being wanted by those who are supposed to my brothers and sisters, as if i were just a worthless law pushing hypocrite for posting more important laws than these, yet paul would have shown me love and understanding.



Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. 14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. 19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. 20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. 21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

[Stryder06]

A great example of Jesus bypassing the requirements of the law is found in John 8:1-11.

Our God is merciful. Those men weren't seeking justice but were trying to trap Jesus. Every last one of them were guilty of sin that required their death. Jesus was pointing out their hypocrisy, not working around the law.

 

[Stryder06]

Indeed you said the law is love. I asked where the Bible says the law is love. You gave commands of the law and not proof that the law is love.

The sole purpose of the law is to condemn so that love might be shown by God - Rom 11:32.

The law charges everything and doesn't love anything.

The law only condemns those who are without Christ. Those of us who love Christ have moved from death to life. The penalty of the law doesn't harm those who are in harmony with the law.

If God didn't love His people He wouldn't have revealed His law to them. The perfect law of liberty brings freedom.

 

[from scratch]

Should it not be that we do not sin at all? If we are not under the law, which many contents, is the removal of the law, then we can not sin. Is that not your position also?

Interesting technical question. To whom does the law apply? Everybody or just the lawless and ungodly - I Tim 1:9-10?

 

[sheina]

Salvation is by grace of God. Yes.

When the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross He cried out, "It is finished" (John 19:30). The work of our salvation was FINISHED, DONE, ACCOMPLISHED and COMPLETED. We simply need to trust and rest in what the Saviour has accomplished.

But the grace of God is not a license to sin, and could not clear the sinner from God's wrath. The man that sinned, he must die (Exodus 32:3).

Nobody ever said that salvation is a license to sin. (Romans 6:1-2)

Your second statement is false...God is able to save to the uttermost. (Hebrews 7:25) In addition, salvation does not eradicate our sin nature (Romans 7; Galatians 5:17; etc.) However, Scripture does tell us that we can have victory over the power of sin (Romans 6-8; Galatians 5) If we sin He still remains our Father and Christ remains our Advocate (1John 2:1). Why? It is because He paid the full price demanded by God's law for sin (1John 2:2), and eternal life is a free gift, totally undeserved and unmerited by man, received by simple faith in Christ alone, and secure upon receipt.

Exodus 32:3 has nothing to do with man sinning and dying...it speaks of the fashioning of the golden calf. Try and get your Scriptures correct, please.

This means, those who believe they are saved in their sins, have no hope at all.

Wrong! Jesus Christ came to save sinners (Luke 5:32; Romans 5:8). All have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). If you aren't IN your sins, you are NOT a sinner...and that goes contrary to what Scripture says.

 

[Exodus35]

What exactly do you mean? Romans 7 is Paul's struggle with the flesh and it was a present struggle that he had, not a past struggle. He writes in the present tense, not past tense.

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Salvation doesn't make a person "sinlessly perfect". We are not "sinless" but we do "sin less"...IOW, we don't continue living IN sin, because we have been freed from the penalty and power of sin.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

What part of the law IS spiritual do you not understand?
Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual [pneumatikos - non-carnal, ie(humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross) or (demonically) a spirit (concr.), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious, spiritual. ~ This word comes from the same word used for SPIRIT (pneuma) in Romans 8:4] : but I am carnal [sarkikos - pertaining to the flesh, ie (be extens.) bodily,temporal or (by impl.) animal, unregenerate; carnal, fleshly], sold under sin.

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded (mindful of the law) is life and peace.

Romans 8:3-7
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin (transgression of the law), condemned sin (the transgression of the law) in the flesh:

4)That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (see explanation in Romans 7:14 for Spiritually ~ the law is spiritual according to Romans 7:14).
5)For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit (the law is spiritual) the things of the Spirit (they are mindful of the law of God).
6)For to be carnally minded is death (sin is transgression of the law - sin=death); but to be spiritually minded (mindful of God's law - the law is spiritual) is life and peace. 7)Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

We see that it's the CARNAL mind that is NOT subject to the law of God. CARNALLY minded people will fight and war against the law of God. Spiritually minded people (people that are led of the Spirit)will not fight against (be at enmity with) the law of God.


You continue to insist that there is a declaration that being lawfully minded isn't being spiritually minded and that it contradicts faith.
Yet in James 2:18-26 we see that faith alone is not enough for justification. Just as we can't be justified by works alone.
James 2:18-26
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

 

[from scratch]

In Jer. 31:31-34, God proclaimed His covenant, which is called the New Covenant. That He will write His law on the heart and put it in the mind of those who believe Christ Jesus, which is the meaning of the "house of Israel after that time." This new covenant is made, because the older one, when proclaimed with Israel after their exodus from Egypt has been broken. If God's laws is written in their hearts and put in their minds, no more a man said to his neighbor "Know the Lord", because all knows their God, whom forgive their sin and remember it no more.

Do I read that indeed there are 2 different covenants in this statement above?

To say that the law (OC) is placed in the heart of those that believe isn't what is promoted by the law crowd anywhere that I have ever read. The point is made very loudly that the NC is only established with the houses of Israel and Judah and not any Gentiles. This means that a Gentlie converts to the law Moses as required to participate in their (the Israelites) covenant. Thus we have the replacement theology which used to be called British Israelism. This movement idea promotes that the law written on the heart is the same law issued at Sinai. That is clearly proven to be error with verses 31 and 32.

Now compare with Hebrews 8.

Paul here not only repeating what is written in Jer, 31:31-34, but he said further, that we have a High Priest in heaven, ministering in the true sanctuary and of the true tabernacle, erected by the Lord himself. Ministering and mediating on a better covenant, which is based on the promise of God, a better promise. Meanwhile the Old covenant was based on human promise, ended in failure and broken promise.

True it is based on a better promise - one that is unconditional and dependant on God alone which can be performed and be effective.

And if the OC established with the pouring of animal blood, the NC was established with the blood of the Savior, once and for all.

What is the High Priest Jesus Christ ministering in the sanctuary in heaven?

Nothing else then ministering His Holy Spirit to write His law on His believers hearts and put it in their minds, to accomplish His covenant. And mediating men with His Father for the forgiveness of sin, this too to accomplish His promise.

Yes, but what are you calling God's law? I think that you intend it to mean nothing less than the covenant made with the COI at Sinai, specifically the 10 Cs. The 10 Cs are called the covenant written on or in stone in Deut 4:13. Thus the covenant made with their fathers can't be something else.

All and all, the New Covenant and Christ ministry in heaven is about His law, to write on your heart and out it in your mind, in order you might be subjected to his law, be a law doers, for when you live in the carnal mind, as an unbeliever, all you can do is breaking His law, for the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God.

So, what is your comment?

There are no I repeat no doers according to the Bible and thus there is no hope of salvation by the observance of the law even if it is written on one's heart. The challenge still remains open for any one to name a doer of the law in the past 6,000 years. So far there hasn't been anyone found except Jesus who didn't have a sin nature and didn't prove a motral man could copy His example.

 

[Arthur57]

Originally Posted by Arthur57

Romans 10:4 – For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
​

What is the meaning of this verse? When did the law ends for a believer, when he is righteous, or when Christ nailed the law to His cross with his death?
​

Well this could have 2 meanings. One when does a person become righteous? Your posted view is that we must attain righteousness from the law.

Wrong. Misunderstood my view. How could you come to that conclusion??

I have pointed out that Jesus says that righeousness won't secure etarnal life (salvation) - Mat 5:20.

The righteousness Jesus rebuke in Mathhew 5:20, is self righteousness. You can not generalized with righteousness by faith, which gives life.

I think your statement implies that a Christian isn't righteous at the point of what we call getting saved by repentance and confession - Rom 10:9-10. Romans 4:1-9 shows that one is righeoues by imputation/declaration by God. This is a fixed point the same as sanctification.

He is accepted as he was righteous, despite he has none of righteousness whatsoever. Accepting as he is righteous is not the same as he is righteous. The later declared his own righteousness, as the first is relying on another person righteousness, even the righteousness of Christ.

Two - since you said for the believer, the law's jurisdiction ended at the point of the salvation experience because the Christian is righteous. The law doesn' apply to the righteous. The law applies to the wicked - I Tim 1:9-10. This by no means indicates the Christian is anomos -lawless.

Your view of the point of righteousness achieved by a believer is different than mine. Your view is a believer achieved righteousness at his initial justification by faith, which in fact he is not righteous at all, for he is a sinner justified by faith, having none of righteousness whatsoever. Therefore the law still aplied to them. My view is a believer achieved his righteousness when he has completely changed to the image and likeness of God. Therefore, Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to those who believe is correct. For believers must walk in the law till they identify themselves with Christ perfect righteousness. Of course this is what is meant by walking after the Spirit.

I notice the question is the law's jurisdiction is over men and not Christians. So I think the approach question to the law's jurisdiction is wrong in discussing if it is over the Christian.All here in reference to who is under sin doesn't include the believer as the rest of the quote shows. The promise was given by faith to those that beleive. What is the promise? Here it indicates salvation.

The law will always have its jurisdiction over men, even Christians.
Justification, salvation, grace is the promise to us through the faith of Abraham. But that doesn't release men from their obligation to keep and obey the law.

Verse 23 is in the past tense saying we were kept under guard of the law.

Right, for as a sinner, you are under condemnation of the law, you are in the jail of condemnation, guarded by the law.

Verse 24 plainly states that the law was our tutor having a purpose. Once again the tense is past tense. And the verse clearly states we are no longer under a tutor. Who is the tutor? Plainly in this quote above it is the law.

And what is the tutor function for a sinner? Condemning them which points them out Christ for salvation. When faith came, you are justified, you are no longer under the guard of the law, for you have been released from the condemnation as your sins is forgiven. The law is still there, as a path of righteousness where believers must walk, but they walk in freedom. Outside the law, they fall again under condemnation, they fall again under the guard or tutor of the law, and the process is repeated.

I notice that you still say sinners are in need of the tutor of the law. This isn't and doesn't include Christians because they are righeous by declaration - Rom 4:1-9. Christians aren't classified as (unrepentant) sinners. As I have already shown the law isn't for the righteous - I Tim 1:9-10. The law didn't end for the anomos - lawless as listed in I Tim 1:9-10. One must use the law lawfully as I Tim 1:8 states.

Never assumed something else if it is not written, and read the whole context, and compare it with other verses of the Scripture.

Romans 4:1-9 is telling Christ imputed righteousness through faith in Him, and not through works of the law. It gives no indication that the law ends, nullify or lost its jurisdiction after justification.

The same with 1 Tim. 1:9.10. The law is not made for the righteous, doesn't mean righteous believers are not under jurisdiction of the law. Can you comprehend this?

When is the law made? Since Adam was created in Eden, he was righteous, but he too was subject to the law of God. When he sinned, he was expelled and died. later on the law was made legal at Mt. Sinai, it was added because of transgression, because of sinners. And the whole world come under condemnation, for all men had sinned and for short of the glory of God (Romans 3:19,20,23). When sinners is justified by faith, he was released from the law's condemnation but not from the law's jurisdiction. On the contrary, he must live according to the demands of the law, otherwise, he comes again under condemnation. God standard of righteousness never change for men, whether you are a righteous believer or a sinner. If the law is not for the righteous the way you think, then the law is not for Jesus too.

Mat 5:18 doesn't refer to end time events. Jesus clarified and qualified this statement in LK 24:44 - And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me.

There are many things must be fulfilled while Jesus was on earth, and there are things he must fulfilled while he is in heaven, ministering in the sanctuary in heaven to accomplish the NC through His Spirit in believers hearts and mind, and mediating for their sins.

So, when he said, until all is fulfilled the law remains in its jurisdiction, he said the truth. For at the cross, part of his mission in saving man is completed.

 

[visionary]

Interesting technical question. To whom does the law apply? Everybody or just the lawless and ungodly - I Tim 1:9-10?

it apply to Us all.. even Paul who declared the ongoing battle with sin inside himself.. for we are all sinners and have gone astray.. no one is righteous

 

[jpcedotal]

God or self...one can not have both.

 

[from scratch]

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded (mindful of the law) is life and peace.

Romans 8:3-7
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin (transgression of the law), condemned sin (the transgression of the law) in the flesh:

4)That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (see explanation in Romans 7:14 for Spiritually ~ the law is spiritual according to Romans 7:14).
5)For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit (the law is spiritual) the things of the Spirit (they are mindful of the law of God).
6)For to be carnally minded is death (sin is transgression of the law - sin=death); but to be spiritually minded (mindful of God's law - the law is spiritual) is life and peace. 7)Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

We see that it's the CARNAL mind that is NOT subject to the law of God. CARNALLY minded people will fight and war against the law of God. Spiritually minded people (people that are led of the Spirit)will not fight against (be at enmity with) the law of God.

And we aren't fighting aginst the law of God (usualy means the 10 Cs). We simply aren't led by the law which means observance and regulated in behavior. The law was never given to the Gentiles or the Christian. If a Jew becomes a Christian they also aren't obligated to the law. There are no Jews in Christ Jesus. No law - No Jew. This means that the NC is outside the law of the OC. This doesn't mean that they can't keep customs required by the law. But even then they can't be compliant with the requirements of the law.

You continue to insist that there is a declaration that being lawfully minded isn't being spiritually minded and that it contradicts faith.
Yet in James 2:18-26 we see that faith alone is not enough for justification. Just as we can't be justified by works alone.
James 2:18-26
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

James isn't pushing compliance to the law. The works James talks aren't required by the law.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Was Abraham justified by works of the law? Nope the law came 430 years after him. Again James point isn't the keeping of the law. Rahab wasn't justified by the law either. Infact she lied and secured her physical salvation.

 

[Studious One]

But that walk after the Spirit doesn't make you perfect and sinless as what you believe, right? This means, you keep sinning from time to time, and thus coming back again under condemnation of the law, for if you admit you did sin, you admitted there is a law you break.

The child of God who falls into sin does not and will never be in condemnation of the Law!

When Christ forgave my sins on the cross, He forgave past, present, and future sins. I will not be held accountable for sins in my body for Christ became sin for me that I might be made righteous in Him

 

[visionary]

The child of God who falls into sin does not and will never be in condemnation of the Law!

When Christ forgave my sins on the cross, He forgave past, present, and future sins. I will not be held accountable for sins in my body for Christ became sin for me that I might be made righteous in Him

Then who are the workers of iniquity.. whom our Lord will declare.. I never knew you??

 

[11822]

When the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross He cried out, "It is finished" (John 19:30). The work of our salvation was FINISHED, DONE, ACCOMPLISHED and COMPLETED. We simply need to trust and rest in what the Saviour has accomplished.

Thats not exacly what Paul says. Paul beseeches us to comply with His teaching of abstaining from fornication and other works of the flesh and to live in the spirit which is love, he does this continuously throughout the NT epistles.

 

[Arthur57]

The Christian has passed from death (condemnation) to life - Jn 5:24. This means the Christian has passed the judgement. and isn't condemned - Romans 8:1-4.

John 5:24.
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life

Does John means literally "hears my words" only? No.
He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. 1 John 2:6.

What is to walk as He walked? Keeping His commandments, as He had kept the commandments.

And Paul amen this: Not the hearers of the law is justified but the doers of the law will be justified - Romans 2:13.

So, those who passed from death to life and comes not into judgment are those who walk as He walked, who are the doers of the law.

And are those who said they are Christians are really law doers? many aren't. Especially those who reject the law.

As according to Romans 8:1-4, who isn't condemned? It is he who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. And what is a walk after the Spirit? A life subject to the law of God, to fulfill its righteous demands through obedience, and not through magic, as many believe here.

But, from your posting, I got the impression, that as long he is a Christian, no matter what he did and believe, he is not under the law, he is not under condemnation, he shall not come into judgment. I like this, very nice and easy life, we can continue with our glass of beers, smoking, partying, clubbing, wine time, etc, maybe fornication and adultery includes. Anyway I am a christian, right?

 

[from scratch]

Then who are the workers of iniquity.. whom our Lord will declare.. I never knew you??

It is those that say did we not do such and so. Just read the full passage.

 

[from scratch]

Thats not exacly what Paul says. Paul beseeches us to comply with His teaching of abstaining from fornication and other works of the flesh and to live in the spirit which is love, he does this continuously throughout the NT epistles.

Beseeching isn't a command as presented in prior posts.

 

[11822]

Some claim they are strong in faith yet they devour the weak in faith. Maybe we should consider ourselves weak instead of strong.

 

[11822]

Beseeching isn't a command as presented in prior posts.

Did i say it was brother? No i didn't. Its more of Paul begging us then commanding us to comply with Gods will.