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Do you agree that christians should keep the 10 Commandments? (4)
- Thread starter Elder 111
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Matthew 23:23.
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
If people only picking up what suits them, they leave a big hole in their comprehension of the Scripture.
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sheina
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The rest of the story from the "law keepers" version of the Scriptures:
Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by "keeping of the 10 commandments", that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Is this what it is REALLY supposed to say? However, this is the message that is coming across loud and clear by those who would put everybody back under the bondage to the OT law.
Yes Paul is serious....he states that we are saved by grace and kept by grace without the admixture of the OT law.
Here is the rest of the story from those who believe all are saved by grace through faith and kept by that same grace through faith...
Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Are you "transformed" by the "keeping of the OT law?
Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by "keeping of the 10 commandments", that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Is this what it is REALLY supposed to say? However, this is the message that is coming across loud and clear by those who would put everybody back under the bondage to the OT law.
Yes Paul is serious....he states that we are saved by grace and kept by grace without the admixture of the OT law.
Here is the rest of the story from those who believe all are saved by grace through faith and kept by that same grace through faith...
Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Are you "transformed" by the "keeping of the OT law?
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Illogical. We can't say its good to obey love thy neighbor and not the rest that Christ and the apostles gave us. Are we a law keeper for obeying love thy neighbor? Yes we are.
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How could you have faith in Christ, if the tutor that will bring you to him expired at the cross 2,000 years ago? And what you believe is against what Paul said:
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. Galatians 3:21-25.
And when did faith come to you? According to your believe, must be before the cross!
If it came to you just few years ago, then till that time the law still exist, not nailed to the law 2,000 years ago.
This is the dilemma of the idea of those who nailed the law at the cross, showing inconsistency and lack of understanding.
Delivered from the law condemnation, not from the law obligation.
How shallow is your study, I'm sorry, but I see you be led by your own wisdom and judgment and not by the Spirit, it could be seen from your statements.
Paul in Galatians 4:21-31, is comparing between SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS and RIGHTEOUSNESS BY FAITH. Self righteousness represented by the son of the bond woman (Ishmael), who was born according to the flesh, SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS depends on the power of the flesh. Righteousness by faith represented by the son of the free woman (Isaac), who was born according to a promise held by faith. Righteousness by faith depends on faith in Christ.
The OC represented by Hagar, a promise of Israel to obey the law of God, on their own strength.
The NC represented by Sarah, which is God promise that men will be made to obey the law, through their faith in Christ.
And Paul said: Throw away the bond woman, for the OC has been broken and is obsolete, and her son, self righteousness that only bears fruit unto death.
So, none of the bond woman or her son represented the Ten Cs, the law.
It doesn't stop there.
And by this grace, a believer is taught to live holy and righteous (Titus 2), to the only standard of righteousness, His law that is the transcription of His agape love, the Ten Cs. Just as hearers? No! but to be a doer of the law.
Only if they walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.
This law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, is the mind of Christ, that replaced the carnal mind, when a believer put his faith in Christ. A mind that is subject to the law of God, for the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, therefore, enable him to be freed from the dominion of sin, from the condemnation of the law.
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By empowering the believer to keep and obey the law to fulfill the righteous demands of the law - Rom 8:4, which if by the flesh, could never be presented before God.
He didn't say that. What He means "self righteousness presented by the Pharisee is not worthy, would not qualify them to enter heaven."
Oh, how far you wandered from the truth. The Pharisee as you kow are those who rely on their perfect obedience to the law, which is self righteousness, as Saul claimed himself blameless in this righteousness but it is not worthy (Phil 3:6). This what Jesus meant, that we should have better righteousness, which is righteousness by faith.
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Lets take this scripture line by line
Mt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Did Jesus tell a lie?
Mt 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mt 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself
Did Jesus lie again?
Mt 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mt 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Did Jesus tell a lie?
Mt 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mt 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself
Did Jesus lie again?
Mt 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
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What is your "old mind"? It is the carnal mind. What is a carnal mind? Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. Romans 8:7.
So, what is the mind of Christ? Is a mind that is subjected to the law of God.
And if this mind is in you, that you may live by the renewing of your mind, isn't your deeds an evidence of law obedience, proving you are a law doer, because your mind is subject to the law of God, it will do what the law demands.
Let me make clear to you, who reject and denies the law, that we are transformed from a law breaker to a law doer by the new mind of Christ, by the renewing of our mind, from a carnal mind people to believers having the mind of Christ, that is subjected to the law of God, doing things the law required.
What you think, is what Paul doesn't think.
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What we think has always been what counts (as in the renewing of the mind) what we do is what Paul spoke against.What you think, is what Paul doesn't think.
ie:lack of conviction in actions, outer form
btw, your color coding is very confusing.
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No. He spoke the truth. Paul confirm this.
Romans 10:5
For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, The man who does those things shall live by them.
Galatians 3:12
Yet the law is not of faith, but the man who does them shall live by them.
Nope!
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Jesus knew that this young man is keeping the law for self righteousness, he lacked the faith. Therefore, Jesus said, if he will be perfect, he must shows his love to his neighbor. And to have love, is to have first faith in the coming Savior as presented by the ceremonial laws, to come to Christ and be His follower.
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Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
What is the meaning of this verse? When did the law ends for a believer, when he is righteous, or when Christ nailed the law to His cross with his death?
To answer this question, we will asked first: Does Christ ended the laws jurisdiction over men and nailed it to his cross 2,000 years ago?
No! Because this will be against Galatians 3:22-25 - But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
From this verse we find that the law was a tutor to bring men unto Christ that they might be justified by their faith, until faith is expressed, they remain under tutorial of the law. And when does faith come? Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion. Hebrews 3:15.
For anyone, there is a today when they come to believe Jesus Christ, this condition remains till the 2nd return of Jesus, for till that day, sinners are still living in the world.
Thus, if till the end of the world there are still sinners, who need the tutorial of the law to bring them to Christ for salvation, to be justified by their faith, is it impossible to believe the law ended and nailed to the cross of Christ 2,000 years ago. The only logic explanation we could comprehend, is that the law is eternal. As Jesus said: For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:18. Of course we understand now, what is fulfilled is and when; the what is the righteousness of the law and the when is when it is fulfilled in those who walk after the Spirit (Romans 8:4). To have this is first to believe, and before believing is realizing the condemnation of the law for our sins, in order we might come to Christ for salvation. Therefore, as long as sin reign in this world, the same would be for the jurisdiction of the law over men.
To be continued.
What is the meaning of this verse? When did the law ends for a believer, when he is righteous, or when Christ nailed the law to His cross with his death?
To answer this question, we will asked first: Does Christ ended the laws jurisdiction over men and nailed it to his cross 2,000 years ago?
No! Because this will be against Galatians 3:22-25 - But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
From this verse we find that the law was a tutor to bring men unto Christ that they might be justified by their faith, until faith is expressed, they remain under tutorial of the law. And when does faith come? Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion. Hebrews 3:15.
For anyone, there is a today when they come to believe Jesus Christ, this condition remains till the 2nd return of Jesus, for till that day, sinners are still living in the world.
Thus, if till the end of the world there are still sinners, who need the tutorial of the law to bring them to Christ for salvation, to be justified by their faith, is it impossible to believe the law ended and nailed to the cross of Christ 2,000 years ago. The only logic explanation we could comprehend, is that the law is eternal. As Jesus said: For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:18. Of course we understand now, what is fulfilled is and when; the what is the righteousness of the law and the when is when it is fulfilled in those who walk after the Spirit (Romans 8:4). To have this is first to believe, and before believing is realizing the condemnation of the law for our sins, in order we might come to Christ for salvation. Therefore, as long as sin reign in this world, the same would be for the jurisdiction of the law over men.
To be continued.
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Back again: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
So, when the law ends for Christ believers, we know if for sinners it remains in its jurisdiction till the end of the world?
When some one at the first time of his life put his believe in Christ and justified, he was a sinner justified by faith, having none of his own righteousness, standing before God as he is righteous, because God sees Christ righteousness imputed to him.
This means, the law could not ended yet for him at that moment, for he hasnt yet any righteousness of his own to be presented to God. The law only ends when he is righteous and could present this righteousness before God that God sees him as a righteous person and not as if he is righteous.
He is not righteous yet the time he was justified, and maybe not the next day, or the next month, or the next year. When will he become a righteous man? It is God judgment to decide when he is righteous and whether he is righteous or remains unrighteous, this judgment come when God close the door of mercy, the door of probation:
He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still. Revelation 22:11.
At this time, a clear separation was set up, those who are unjust and filthy will remains in their unjust and filthy condition, and those who are righteous and holy will remain in their righteousness and holiness. Those who depend solely on Christ imputed righteousness will be put in a row together with the unjust and filthy people, for they remain sinners justified by faith, they could not present their own righteousness.
Those who are really righteous, just and holy people, who can present God their own righteousness, will have the right to enter the gate of heaven and eat of the fruit of life (Rev. 22:14). These righteous believers are the law doers, those who keep the commandments of God. The law jurisdiction over them never ends, and their obligation to keep the law remains till the great announcement day of Rev. 22:11. Just then, Christ is the end of the law obedience for righteousness to they that believe, having their own righteousness of faith, making them righteous people in and out, those who can present their own righteousness, imparted by Christ through the shedding of His Holy Spirit, working in them a life time, to conform them with the righteous demands of the law, a law which contains the great principle of agape love, a law that is the transcription of Gods character, for God is love.
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one who believes. It didn't say; Christ is the end of the law for every one who believes (and justified by their faith), as those who reject the law believes.
So, when the law ends for Christ believers, we know if for sinners it remains in its jurisdiction till the end of the world?
When some one at the first time of his life put his believe in Christ and justified, he was a sinner justified by faith, having none of his own righteousness, standing before God as he is righteous, because God sees Christ righteousness imputed to him.
This means, the law could not ended yet for him at that moment, for he hasnt yet any righteousness of his own to be presented to God. The law only ends when he is righteous and could present this righteousness before God that God sees him as a righteous person and not as if he is righteous.
He is not righteous yet the time he was justified, and maybe not the next day, or the next month, or the next year. When will he become a righteous man? It is God judgment to decide when he is righteous and whether he is righteous or remains unrighteous, this judgment come when God close the door of mercy, the door of probation:
He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still. Revelation 22:11.
At this time, a clear separation was set up, those who are unjust and filthy will remains in their unjust and filthy condition, and those who are righteous and holy will remain in their righteousness and holiness. Those who depend solely on Christ imputed righteousness will be put in a row together with the unjust and filthy people, for they remain sinners justified by faith, they could not present their own righteousness.
Those who are really righteous, just and holy people, who can present God their own righteousness, will have the right to enter the gate of heaven and eat of the fruit of life (Rev. 22:14). These righteous believers are the law doers, those who keep the commandments of God. The law jurisdiction over them never ends, and their obligation to keep the law remains till the great announcement day of Rev. 22:11. Just then, Christ is the end of the law obedience for righteousness to they that believe, having their own righteousness of faith, making them righteous people in and out, those who can present their own righteousness, imparted by Christ through the shedding of His Holy Spirit, working in them a life time, to conform them with the righteous demands of the law, a law which contains the great principle of agape love, a law that is the transcription of Gods character, for God is love.
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one who believes. It didn't say; Christ is the end of the law for every one who believes (and justified by their faith), as those who reject the law believes.
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Exodus35
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It has everything to do with the topic of this thread. You say that all we are supposed to recognize is Acts 15:29, "That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."
Just trying to see how much you adhere to this passage. Considering you have so much contempt toward God's commands, you would be hard pressed to be obedient to those in Acts 15:29. Isn't Acts 15 a form of law as well?
If you eat "Easter Eggs", you are eating meat sacrficed to idols. If you enjoy that Easter Ham - you are feasting on the boar that killed Tammuz.
If you eat pork, you are eating what God said is an abomination.
Pork was commonly used as the animal of choice in idol worship (Deut.12:31,"Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.") , not only that it is no different than eating a rat, dog, cat, horse. Most people find that eating a rat, dog, cat or horse abominable and quite detesable.
Heck, if you are free to eat whatever you like, as long as you give thanks for it - have a feast on the day you die, save your family a buck and they can just eat you. After all, all things are clean now that you are free from the law - right?
Please don't come to me with Acts 10:11-16. The interpretation is given in Acts 10:28, "And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean." God wasn't showing Peter that he could eat anything that he wanted or that any beast was fit for food. He was revealing that God was extending salvation to the gentile.
If you eat meat that still has blood in it (Leviticus 19:26 Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times.) - WOW! Would you look at that! The LAW is in Acts 15!
Pause for a second to take that in. SELAH
By the way. You are dancing around question 4.
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Exodus35
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For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life: - Proverbs 6:23
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
-Romans 7:12
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. -Rom. 7:14
The law is of the Spirit of God.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. - Gal. 5:14 (Do you want your neighbor to steal from you, set out to take your wife, lie to you, kill you?)
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers (thou shalt not kill - honor thy father and mother) , for manslayers ( Thou shalt not kill), For whoremongers (thou shalt not commit adultry), for them that defile themselves with mankind (homosexuality - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. -Leviticus 18:22), for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons (thou shalt not bear false witness), and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; - 1 Tim 1: 8-10
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
-Romans 7:12
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. -Rom. 7:14
The law is of the Spirit of God.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. - Gal. 5:14 (Do you want your neighbor to steal from you, set out to take your wife, lie to you, kill you?)
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers (thou shalt not kill - honor thy father and mother) , for manslayers ( Thou shalt not kill), For whoremongers (thou shalt not commit adultry), for them that defile themselves with mankind (homosexuality - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. -Leviticus 18:22), for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons (thou shalt not bear false witness), and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; - 1 Tim 1: 8-10
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from scratch
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Well this could have 2 meanings. One when does a person become righteous? Your posted view is that we must attain righteousness from the law. I have pointed out that Jesus says that righeousness won't secure etarnal life (salvation) - Mat 5:20. I think your statement implies that a Christian isn't righteous at the point of what we call getting saved by repentance and confession - Rom 10:9-10. Romans 4:1-9 shows that one is righeoues by imputation/declaration by God. This is a fixed point the same as sanctification. Justification and sanctification aren't the same thing.
Two - since you said for the believer, the law's jurisdiction ended at the point of the salvation experience because the Christian is righteous. The law doesn' apply to the righteous. The law applies to the wicked - I Tim 1:9-10. This by no means indicates the Christian is anomos -lawless.
I notice the question is the law's jurisdiction is over men and not Christians. So I think the approach question to the law's jurisdiction is wrong in discussing if it is over the Christian.
All here in reference to who is under sin doesn't include the believer as the rest of the quote shows. The promise was given by faith to those that beleive. What is the promise? Here it indicates salvation.
Verse 23 is in the past tense saying we were kept under guard of the law.
Verse 24 plainly states that the law was our tutor having a purpose. Once again the tense is past tense. And the verse clearly states we are no longer under a tutor. Who is the tutor? Plainly in this quote above it is the law.
I notice that you still say sinners are in need of the tutor of the law. This isn't and doesn't include Christians because they are righeous by declaration - Rom 4:1-9. Christians aren't classified as (unrepentant) sinners. As I have already shown the law isn't for the righteous - I Tim 1:9-10. The law didn't end for the anomos - lawless as listed in I Tim 1:9-10. One must use the law lawfully as I Tim 1:8 states.
Mat 5:18 doesn't refer to end time events. Jesus clarified and qualified this statement in LK 24:44 - And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me.
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from scratch
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There are 2 different people mentioned in the question above. Amen! the law ends for the Christian believer. Another amen that it remains for the sinner (non Christian) till the end of the world.
That is correct was a sinner. It is also correct that God sees the imputed righteousness of Christ and not our unrighteous and rebellious flesh.
Whops! You just said we have the imputed righteousness of Christ. Therefore we do indeed posses the required righteousness. It just isn't of our doing. We never present our righteousness to God as Christians. This is where those who say didn't we do thus and so go wrong. They are presenting their works of righteousness trying to get into heaven. They are theives. Jesus said you go through and because of Him and can't get in anyother way - John 10.
Misapplied Scripture and misunderstanding of when salvation (justification) occurs or becomes ours. No wonder some live in fear.
A Christian doesn't present their righteousness, they present Jesus' righteousness in the same way one presents a ticke for admission to a facility when required. Do you really want to present filthy rags to God and hope He likes them. We don't even like filthy rags which we still treat as undesirable trash even today - Isa 64:6.
I guess a part time doer - really a violator qualifies as a full time doer to you. The Scripture plainly shows thare are no doers, not a single one. Thus by your idea there is not such thing as salvation. There can't be named any who have been successful in 6,000 years. Sure gives real hope. Even with the aide of the Holy Spirit there aren't any.
Listen to me for a second. You willfully violate the sabbath every single week. You do business on account every time you flush the toilet, turn on a light, use the air conditioner or refrigerator. This also requires another to work in your employ which is most difinately against the 4th as stated in Exodus 20. I didn't mention the use of a vehicle (animal replacement) which is strictly also forbidden. This is unrepentant sin for the law keeper. Object all you want.
That is out right denial of the Scripture if I ever saw one. Remember the tutor?
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If we love Him (heart), we will obey His commandments. Didn't He say that is how our love for Him will be shown? Right obedience comes out of love
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