Protestant canon

[Standing Up]

And that's where you're wrong. The mocking DID HAPPEN

Nothing to do with mocking, but with escaping death.


17"Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; 18for if the righteous man is God's son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.

They were wrong.

Look, folks, I don't think it a prophecy, I don't care. But for you who think it is a valid prophecy, then you got a problem, because it didn't come to pass. Hence, it is a false prophecy.

But maybe you folks are right. Let's say it is a prophecy. Well, as such it is false. Therefore the Church rejected it as scripture.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Folks,

Let's back up a little bit.

I'm not the one who proposed that Wisdom was making a prophecy. Othocat did. He said the verses under question were a prophecy.

I replied, if so, then it did not come to pass.

The prophecy was that Jesus would not die on the cross; and Orthcat ties the prophecy to the comments of the passerbys---if he's God, let him come down.

Obviously, we all agree Jesus died on the cross.

Orthocat then got the definition of a prophet/cy from Deuteronomy (it must come to pass and it must not lead you astry).

The conversation then waffled a bit. Was it a prophecy or not? Was it wicked men or not?

Bottom line. If it's a prophecy, it failed. If it's not a prophecy, then Orthocat and whoever agrees its a prophecy need to clarify their thoughts. What do you say?

That is not what the prophechy is saying. I have gone over this enough. I don't think the problem here is a lack of information.

 

[Standing Up]

17"Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; 18for if the righteous man is God's son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.

 

[Montalban]

Nothing to do with mocking, but with escaping death.

There's more errors:

1) I dealt with that too - I cited the Psalm regarding predicting Jesus' wish not to be delivered unto his enemies. Selective addressing of points doesn't help

Directly related to this point is the next...
2) The statement you quote is conditional. It doesn't say "Jesus was delivered". It suggests that he's taunted and that if he is truly God he will be, as he was tempted when he was on the Cross. The thief said to him that if he truly was God he could get them down off the cross.

Luke 23:39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

The soldiers also mocked him
Luke 23:36 The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37 and said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself.”

This doesn't help your case either.

And Jesus himself asked to be freed from this burden.

And it's predicted in Psalms...

And in that Psalm it says

Psalm 22: 19 But you, LORD, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen

If you can cite where they say that Jesus didn't die, that would be great. But you've not done so in the several weeks you've denied this prophecy. If you bring your evidence away from Christ-deniers like Josephus and Islam you'd be better able to understand this prophecy.

You don't have any verse that says he was freed from this. You have a verse predicting people will challenge him on this - to prove that he is God.

It's in Psalms too, the same predictions.

And it came to pass in Luke 23

 

[Montalban]

That is not what the prophechy is saying. I have gone over this enough. I don't think the problem here is a lack of information.

Absolutely. He's missed the conditional nature of the prophecy.

It doesn't say Jesus was/will be delivered.

It says people will say this.

And so it says so in the Psalm too. But of course we know the Psalms are genuine

It's amazing what he's trying to draw out of this passage

 

[SummaScriptura]

Folks,
Let's back up a little bit.
I'm not the one who proposed that Wisdom was making a prophecy. Othocat did. He said the verses under question were a prophecy.
I replied, if so, then it did not come to pass.
The prophecy was that Jesus would not die on the cross; and Orthcat ties the prophecy to the comments of the passerbys---if he's God, let him come down.
Obviously, we all agree Jesus died on the cross.
Orthocat then got the definition of a prophet/cy from Deuteronomy (it must come to pass and it must not lead you astry).
The conversation then waffled a bit. Was it a prophecy or not? Was it wicked men or not?
Bottom line. If it's a prophecy, it failed. If it's not a prophecy, then Orthocat and whoever agrees its a prophecy need to clarify their thoughts. What do you say?

The entire Bible is prophecy. From the first verse of Genesis to the final word of Revelation, it is all prophecy, because it is all forth-telling God's word. Only some of the prophecy of the Bible foretells events. It is all prophecy nevertheless.

When the Bible foretells an event, and a certain generation lives to see those events become or to note those events have already become a part of their history, those foretold events become evidence of the divine inspiration of the Scripture. Without fulfilled foretold events we do not have that sort of evidence.

Prophecy does not always begin with the words, "Thus says the Lord". If every statement of the entire Bible had to be preceeded with that statement an entire library could not contain such a Bible of that size.

Prophecy does not always begin with the identity of the speaker being definitively shown to be a person who is a known prophet. If every statement of the entire Bible had to be preceeded with the identity of the speaker being identified as a known prophet we would have to remove Job, Esther, Chronicles, many Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon.

But will we now say those books are not the word of God? No. They are considered the word of God, they are therefore prophecy.

The following is an example of fulfilled, foretold, prophecy of an event. Before it was evident that this was to be fulfilled at the cross of Christ it was no less prophecy. What makes this example so telling is it is prophecy that foretells what the enemies of Messiah would say just as was done by the writer of Wisdom. (Clue: don't stop reading before verse 8)

Psalm 22

1 My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.
2 O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.
3 Yet You are holy,
O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
4 In You our fathers trusted;
They trusted and You delivered them.
5 To You they cried out and were delivered;
In You they trusted and were not disappointed. 6 But I am a worm and not a man,
A reproach of men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me sneer at me;
They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,
8 “Commit yourself to the LORD; let Him deliver him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”

Please notice that the enemies of Christ are foretold to say about Christ, "Commit yourself to the LORD; let Him deliver him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him."

Prophecy. The speaker of those words are God's enemies. This is a confirmed, fulfilled, foretelling according to Matthew 27.

 

[Montalban]

Indeed! The Psalm fortells those who would mock and challenge Jesus.

These are challenges that happened, as predicted

 

[Ortho_Cat]

17"Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; 18for if the righteous man is God's son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.

I urge you to read my rebuttal to your argument (in a series of 4 posts) I posted a while back. I can't keep rehashing this forever...

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Absolutely. He's missed the conditional nature of the prophecy.

It doesn't say Jesus was/will be delivered.

It says people will say this.

And so it says so in the Psalm too. But of course we know the Psalms are genuine

It's amazing what he's trying to draw out of this passage

lol, little green men coming out of a toothpaste tube...that is amazing!

 

[Montalban]

As such, it has no claim to be God-breathed scripture. The Jews rejected it, just like Melito and Jerome.

We've seen that Melito doesn't support you, nor Origen - based on your own evidence.

However citing witnesses continues to be a major plank in your argument.

Jerome does not help you either. Thus making this consistant regarding your other witnesses

"Michael Barber asserts that, although Jerome was once suspicious of the apocrypha, he later viewed them as Scripture. Barber argues that this is clear from Jerome's epistles. As an example, Barber cites Jerome's letter to Eustochium, in which Jerome quotes Sirach 13:2.,[4] elsewhere Jerome also refers to Baruch, the Story of Susannah and Wisdom as scripture"
Development of the Old Testament canon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thus Jerome changed his mind.

 

[Montalban]

I urge you to read my rebuttal to your argument (in a series of 4 posts) I posted a while back. I can't keep rehashing this forever...

I wouldn't want to see someone go on and on

 

[Ortho_Cat]

As such, it has no claim to be God-breathed scripture. The Jews rejected it, just like Melito and Jerome.

Now this is a statement I haven't seen before. By Jews, I assume you are referring to Jews after the advent of Christ, and after the alleged "council of Jamnia" convened?

 

[Ortho_Cat]

We've seen that Melito doesn't support you, nor Origen - based on your own evidence.

However citing witnesses continues to be a major plank in your argument.

Jerome does not help you either. Thus making this consistant regarding your other witnesses

"Michael Barber asserts that, although Jerome was once suspicious of the apocrypha, he later viewed them as Scripture. Barber argues that this is clear from Jerome's epistles. As an example, Barber cites Jerome's letter to Eustochium, in which Jerome quotes Sirach 13:2.,[4] elsewhere Jerome also refers to Baruch, the Story of Susannah and Wisdom as scripture"
Development of the Old Testament canon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thus Jerome changed his mind.

Until it can be shown definitively that the book of Wisdom is not included in Melito's canon (an issue which the scholars are divided on), and that he rejected the longer versions of Esther and Daniel, it would probably be best not to include him as a witness to the Protestant canon (especially given all the talk about Wisdom we've been having lately!)

 

[Standing Up]

Until it can be shown definitively that the book of Wisdom is not included in Melito's canon (an issue which the scholars are divided on), and that he rejected the longer versions of Esther and Daniel, it would probably be best not to include him as a witness to the Protestant canon (especially given all the talk about Wisdom we've been having lately!)

I've posted it all before, and one more time.

As you have often, prompted by your regard for the word of God, expressed a wish to have some extracts made from the Law and the Prophets concerning the Saviour, and concerning our faith in general, and have desired, moreover, to obtain an accurate account of the Ancient Books, as regards their number and their arrangement, I have striven to the best of my ability to perform this task: ...

I accordingly proceeded to the East, and went to the very spot where the things in question were preached and took place; and, having made myself accurately acquainted with the books of the Old Testament, I have set them down below, and herewith send you the list.

The five books of Moses—Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Joshua,36233623 ᾽Ιησοῦς Ναυῆ. Judges, Ruth, the four books of Kings, the two of Chronicles, the book of the Psalms of David, the Proverbs of Solomon, also called the Book of Wisdom, Ecclesiastes, the Song of Songs, Job, the books of the prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, of the twelve contained in a single book, Daniel, Ezekiel, Esdras. From these I have made my extracts, dividing them into six books.
ANF08. The Twelve Patriarchs, Excerpts and Epistles, The Clementia, Apocrypha, Decretals, Memoirs of Edessa and Syriac Documents, Remains of the First | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

That was written c175ad. Today we have people who claim from a much later tradtion c400ad to have a more accurate account of the Old Testament.

It is the same as the Protestand canon, less Esther.

PS The Church didn't like Melito for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that he was a witness to the Apostolic teachings about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ Jesus.

 

[Thekla]

Interesting; even scholars admit they don't know the actual content of the disagreement - they conjecture.

(If dating was dogma, why weren't the Quartodecimans kept from error - as by the 4th c. some taught that God had a human form in the OT, and others practiced an extreme form of asceticism. And where were the Qs from the 4th - 20th c.; why did they disappear when God promised that the "gates of hell would not prevail" ?)

 

[Standing Up]

The entire Bible is prophecy. From the first verse of Genesis to the final word of Revelation, it is all prophecy, because it is all forth-telling God's word. Only some of the prophecy of the Bible foretells events. It is all prophecy nevertheless.

When the Bible foretells an event, and a certain generation lives to see those events become or to note those events have already become a part of their history, those foretold events become evidence of the divine inspiration of the Scripture. Without fulfilled foretold events we do not have that sort of evidence.

Prophecy does not always begin with the words, "Thus says the Lord". If every statement of the entire Bible had to be preceeded with that statement an entire library could not contain such a Bible of that size.

Prophecy does not always begin with the identity of the speaker being definitively shown to be a person who is a known prophet. If every statement of the entire Bible had to be preceeded with the identity of the speaker being identified as a known prophet we would have to remove Job, Esther, Chronicles, many Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon.

But will we now say those books are not the word of God? No. They are considered the word of God, they are therefore prophecy.

The following is an example of fulfilled, foretold, prophecy of an event. Before it was evident that this was to be fulfilled at the cross of Christ it was no less prophecy. What makes this example so telling is it is prophecy that foretells what the enemies of Messiah would say just as was done by the writer of Wisdom. (Clue: don't stop reading before verse 8)

Psalm 22

1 My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.
2 O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.
3 Yet You are holy,
O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
4 In You our fathers trusted;
They trusted and You delivered them.
5 To You they cried out and were delivered;
In You they trusted and were not disappointed. 6 But I am a worm and not a man,
A reproach of men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me sneer at me;
They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,
8 “Commit yourself to the LORD; let Him deliver him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”

Please notice that the enemies of Christ are foretold to say about Christ, "Commit yourself to the LORD; let Him deliver him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him."

Prophecy. The speaker of those words are God's enemies. This is a confirmed, fulfilled, foretelling according to Matthew 27.

17"Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; 18for if the righteous man is God's son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.


Psalms is saying the enemies say, let God deliver him.

Wisdom is saying the enemies say, God will deliver him.

See the difference?

OTOH, perhaps Wisdom is simply mistranslated or corrupted.

 

[Thekla]

17"Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; 18for if the righteous man is God's son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.


Psalms is saying the enemies say, let God deliver him.

Wisdom is saying the enemies say, God will deliver him.

See the difference?

What is the difference in the conceptual content of the two statements ?

 

[Standing Up]

Interesting; even scholars admit they don't know the actual content of the disagreement - they conjecture.

That's why it is necessary to understand scripture first.

Then we look at tradition and see exactly what happened. To read of presbyter Sixtus who formed a custom and then Anicetus (and Nicea) who rejected apostolic teaching for that presbyter teaching and then of Firmillian and Chrysostom who confirms they didn't follow apostolic teaching is to scratch the head and wonder who's lying.

(If dating was dogma, why weren't the Quartodecimans kept from error - as by the 4th c. some taught that God had a human form in the OT, and others practiced an extreme form of asceticism. And where were the Qs from the 4th - 20th c.; why did they disappear when God promised that the "gates of hell would not prevail" ?)

Jesus has the keys to the gates (Rev). He's already opened the doors (Mt.). The promise is already fulfilled, regardless of groups' teaching contradiction to each other.

 

[Thekla]

That's why it is necessary to understand scripture first.

Then we look at tradition and see exactly what happened. To read of presbyter Sixtus who formed a custom and then Anicetus (and Nicea) who rejected apostolic teaching for that presbyter teaching and then of Firmillian and Chrysostom who confirms they didn't follow apostolic teaching is to scratch the head and wonder who's lying.

This is your conjecture; which is fine, the scholars conjecture too.

Jesus has the keys to the gates (Rev). He's already opened the doors (Mt.). The promise is already fulfilled, regardless of groups' teaching contradiction to each other.

If the dating was dogmatic (necessary for salvation), what is the fate of all those after the 4th c. who do not practice Q method (whatever that was, as no one is sure of what it was), and as the 1st c. dating method was lost after the 1st c., how did the Qs practice the proper reckoning (which was supposedly secret and done by the Sanhedrin) ?

 

[Standing Up]

What is the difference in the conceptual content of the two statements ?

Wouldn't that nail down the disagreement, if we could understand that?

They (EO and RC) believe Wisdom is a prophecy---God will deliver Him from/before death. Didn't happen though, hence Wisdom is not God-breathed.

Psalms, however, says the enemies say, let God deliver Him. This is not to say God will deliver Him.

OTOH, if it is enemies (not the Book of Wisdom writer) who say, God will deliver Him, then it's not a prophecy by the writer. In which case, it's not a prophecy. So, there may be other merits to Wisdom, but as a God-breathed scripture, proof must lay elsewhere.