Protestant canon

[Standing Up]

It seems that neither of you have addressed my response to this issue, and it isn't the first time. Again, here is what I posted regarding this issue. I don't care to keep repeating myself. If this isn't a satisfactory explanation, I really don't know what else I can provide you with. I suppose we will have to leave it be and let the readers decide for themselves whether it seems to be a convincing prophecy or not. Again, here are links to my rebuttal:

(1) http://www.christianforums.com/t7559285-63/#post57544430

(2) http://www.christianforums.com/t7559285-64/#post57544445

(3) http://www.christianforums.com/t7559285-70/#post57554469

(4) http://www.christianforums.com/t7559285-70/#post57554774

I didn't look at your links, but all of this was picked up in your Deut. quote about a prophet.

Folks disagree. Do you have something to add? IOW, is your quote from Wisdom a prophecy or not? Yes or no? If yes, specifically what do you think is the prophecy? If no, then let's drop it because its opinion.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

I didn't look at your links, but all of this was picked up in your Deut. quote about a prophet.

Folks disagree. Do you have something to add? IOW, is your quote from Wisdom a prophecy or not? Yes or no? If yes, specifically what do you think is the prophecy? If no, then let's drop it because its opinion.

I think it is one of the most descriptive prophecies in the OT scripures regarding Christ's passion and purpose of salvation. The reasons for this should be obvious by reading it and correlating it to the verses in Mt. that I provided. I respect the fact that you disagree, but it is frustrating to me when you say the same thing before and after I presented my argument, and do not address my argument in between.

You made a claim that the prophecy was false, and I showed you how and why I think your view is in error. Perhaps you can show me now how and why you think my view is in error?

 

[Ortho_Cat]

The Deut quotation doesn't say that anyone who makes a correct prediction is a prophet. To the contrary, it says that even if you make a correct prediction, if you're not teaching God's word you're not a prophet.

Prophets are not primarily people who predict things. They are people who explain God's will for the people. They are given a specific authority from God. I'd say ultimately, prophet is a specific office to which God calls people. While there are tests (they can't make false predictions, and they can't tell people to worship false gods), it's not a status that we bestow on people ourselves because they meet certain criteria.

There are modern examples of what I'd call "private revelation," some of which even involve predictions, but that still doesn't cause us to want to add their statements to Scripture as a new prophetic book.

Jewish and Christian tradition both seem to have the concept of an end of the prophetic era. The point isn't that the Holy Spirit stops talking to us, or that he stops working in history, but that there are a specific set of events, explained by Prophets or Apostles, which form the cornerstone of our understanding of him.

I addressed the criteria for being a prophet more specifically in an earlier post, and from what I can tell, SU agrees with my criteria. Sorry i can't backtrack it right now...

 

[Thekla]

They are claiming that the passage in Wisdom says Jesus will be "protected", then they extrapolate this to mean that he will be "delivered from death". Therefore, they claim that because Jesus died and wasn't "protected" by God, it is a "false prophecy". I think the backstory will provide more info in the links i provided.

Ah; thank-you

But Jesus was delivered from death; He resurrected !

Again, this is providing a very distorted view of this prophecy. The prophet is clearly quoting what the mockers/unbelievers will say of Jesus during his life and throughout his passion, and the prophet then goes on to correct their distorted view of who the Messiah will be and what He will do by saying "...thus they reasoned, but they were led astray, for their wickedness blinded them, 22 and they did not know the secret purposes of God".

My opinion - the erosion in the quality of published material (and the erosion of literary education) has led to an erosion in literacy in general. People can still read, but they don't do so well with "reading".

 

[Standing Up]

I addressed the criteria for being a prophet more specifically in an earlier post, and from what I can tell, SU agrees with my criteria. Sorry i can't backtrack it right now...

I didn't answer him because he didn't read our conversation very closely Tough to keep going round the mulberry bush. But yes, we agree and why he said what he did is beyond me.

PS Heheh, see the post above.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Ah; thank-you

But Jesus was delivered from death; He resurrected !

Indeed! One could make an effective argument for that case as well, based on the prophecy in question, I believe

Perhaps SU and RO would like to address this particular interpretation of the passage as well?

 

[Standing Up]

I think it is one of the most descriptive prophecies in the OT scripures regarding Christ's passion and purpose of salvation. The reasons for this should be obvious by reading it and correlating it to the verses in Mt. that I provided. I respect the fact that you disagree, but it is frustrating to me when you say the same thing before and after I presented my argument, and do not address my argument in between.

You made a claim that the prophecy was false, and I showed you how and why I think your view is in error. Perhaps you can show me now how and why you think my view is in error?

It's like Islam, delivered from death, ie kept from death (not the "interpretation" of resurrection).

We've gone over this. If it's a prophecy, it fails. As such, it is false. Sorry, it's one of your favorite verses. Truly.

I know you believe it hooks to Matthew and what the passerbys say. If so, their view was that God would deliver the innocent man. But He didn't. He died for our sins. But you know all of that.

 

[Montalban]

Funny. A Christian getting his truth first from a person who denied Jesus - Josephus, now from Islam

Flies in the face of common sense

 

[Standing Up]

Indeed! One could make an effective argument for that case as well, based on the prophecy in question, I believe

Perhaps SU and RO would like to address this particular interpretation of the passage as well?

They didn't expect Messiah to die. They missed the 'suffering servant' of Isaiah. This is why Jesus kept telling them, I must die. When He did, they didn't believe it. They split. He had to go get them---road to Emmaus, He had to explain to them, from sufferings, did not Messiah have to suffer?

 

[Standing Up]

Funny. A Christian getting his truth first from a person who denied Jesus - Josephus, now from Islam

Flies in the face of common sense

Like I said earlier, you couldn't reiterate a point with a period. You've totally missed again. Quit trying. Please.

 

[Montalban]

Like I said earlier, you couldn't reiterate a point with a period. You've totally missed again. Quit trying. Please.

What does it mean to 'reiterate a point with a period'?

Why is it that it's valid to look at Josephus for the Christian canon and now to look at Islamic understandings of words?

 

[Ortho_Cat]

I know you believe it hooks to Matthew and what the passerbys say. If so, their view was that God would deliver the innocent man. But He didn't. He died for our sins. But you know all of that.

Precisely. The prophecy was referring to how we would be treated and what the mockers would say of him. The author of Wisdom goes on to correct their misguided views.

He is basically saying:

"they will say this, but I tell you this..."

isolating just verse 17 now:

17: Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; 18: for if the righteous man is God's son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. 19: Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. 20: Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected." (Wisdom 2)
​

41 So also the chief priests, with the scribes and elders, mocked him, saying, 42 "He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, 'I am the Son of God.'" (Mt. 27)

​

Can you tell me how these verses are functionally different? That is, are they not essentially saying the same thing? Note that in Mt., Jesus saying "I am the Son of God" is equated with God delivering Him.

 

[Montalban]

Can you tell me how these verses are functionally different? That is, are they not essentially saying the same thing? Note that in Mt., Jesus saying "I am the Son of God" is equated with God delivering Him.

You're missing the Islamic view!

 

[SummaScriptura]

The Diatribe of the Pharisees Against Christ as
Foretold in Wisdom, Chapter 2
(Includes Hyper-Links to New Testament Fulfillments)​

[sup]12[/sup]"Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training. [sup]13[/sup]He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the LORD.

[sup]14[/sup]"He became to us a reproof of our thoughts; [sup]15[/sup]the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange. [sup]16[/sup]We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father.

[sup]17[/sup]"Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; [sup]18[/sup]for if the righteous man is God's son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.

[sup]19[/sup]"Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. [sup]20[/sup]Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected."

[sup]21[/sup]Thus they reasoned, but they were led astray, for their wickedness blinded them, [sup]22[/sup]and they did not know the secret purposes of God. (ESV, 2009)

 

[Montalban]

The Diatribe of the Pharisees Against Christ as
Foreseen in Wisdom Chapter 2
(Includes Links to New Testament Fulfillment)​

[sup]12[/sup]"Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training. [sup]13[/sup]He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the LORD.

[sup]14[/sup]"He became to us a reproof of our thoughts; [sup]15[/sup]the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange. [sup]16[/sup]We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father.

[sup]17[/sup]"Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; [sup]18[/sup]for if the righteous man is God's son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.

[sup]19[/sup]"Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. [sup]20[/sup]Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected."

[sup]21[/sup]Thus they reasoned, but they were led astray, for their wickedness blinded them, [sup]22[/sup]and they did not know the secret purposes of God.

Very good! Gets to the heart of the issue of prophecy

There's also been a number of crimes against the English language here

 

[Ortho_Cat]

The Diatribe of the Pharisees Against Christ as

Foreseen in Wisdom Chapter 2
(Includes Links to New Testament Fulfillment)​

[sup]12[/sup]"Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training. [sup]13[/sup]He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the LORD.

[sup]14[/sup]"He became to us a reproof of our thoughts; [sup]15[/sup]the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange. [sup]16[/sup]We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father.

[sup]17[/sup]"Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; [sup]18[/sup]for if the righteous man is God's son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.

[sup]19[/sup]"Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. [sup]20[/sup]Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected."

[sup]21[/sup]Thus they reasoned, but they were led astray, for their wickedness blinded them, [sup]22[/sup]and they did not know the secret purposes of God.

Really good stuff...

 

[Standing Up]

The Diatribe of the Pharisees Against Christ as​

Foretold in Wisdom, Chapter 2
(Includes Hyper-Links to New Testament Fulfillments)​

[sup]12[/sup]"Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training. [sup]13[/sup]He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the LORD.

[sup]14[/sup]"He became to us a reproof of our thoughts; [sup]15[/sup]the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange. [sup]16[/sup]We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father.

[sup]17[/sup]"Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; [sup]18[/sup]for if the righteous man is God's son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.

[sup]19[/sup]"Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. [sup]20[/sup]Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected."

[sup]21[/sup]Thus they reasoned, but they were led astray, for their wickedness blinded them, [sup]22[/sup]and they did not know the secret purposes of God. (ESV, 2009)

Where did Jesus say He'd be protected from death?

 

[SummaScriptura]

Where did Jesus say He'd be protected from death?

Wisdom 2 is not the words of Jesus, it is the words of his enemies. You are quite wrong. The enemies of Christ deduced Jesus should be protected from death if Jesus spoke the truth about being God's Son. I already linked it above, but here it is again, "Let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe in Him. HE TRUSTS IN GOD; LET GOD RESCUE Him now, IF HE DELIGHTS IN HIM; for He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”

In the passage from Matthew 27, the Pharisees actually speak forth the same prophetic words recorded by the Psalmist in Psalm 22. In other words, "If this liar had spoken the truth that God was his Father, then, let's see God save him from us!" Please don't tell me this point is too difficult for you to see...

 

[Montalban]

Wisdom 2 is not the words of Jesus, it is the words of his enemies. You are quite wrong. The enemies of Christ deduced Jesus should be protected from death if Jesus spoke the truth about being God's Son. I already linked it above, but here it is again, "Let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe in Him. HE TRUSTS IN GOD; LET GOD RESCUE Him now, IF HE DELIGHTS IN HIM; for He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”

In the passage from Matthew 27, the Pharisees actually speak forth the same prophetic words recorded by the Psalmist in Psalm 22. In other words, "If this liar had spoken the truth that God was his Father, then, let's see God save him from us!" Please don't tell me this point is too difficult for you to see...

It's already been stated by others, and now yourself.

But unfortunately it doesn't conform with someone's Islamic view of Christianity.

 

[Montalban]

One wonders how is it not a prophecy from a prophet of God?