Threatening??

[b&wpac7]

Please excuse the snark, but it seems to me that Judaism basically turned tribalism into a religion.

Even if so, we don't try to convert or hurt others, we don't try to force our religious beliefs upon others, and are usually pretty content if, religiously, we are left alone.

 

[sidhe]

tell me your pagan background prove to me your actually a pagan

I know this wasn't directed towards me, but since I'm also among the ones asking you to demonstrate that you really had some involvement in Wicca/paganism:

1992: Go go pagan me. Do my self-dedication. Fun times. Moments of gnosis. Etc.

'92-98: I'm primarily interested in Celtic Reconstructionism and such, combined with Western Mystery Tradition exercises from the Golden Dawn and similar groups. I grasp enough to understand that I'm not a Wiccan. I assemble my own set of spiritual practices, which by some freak chance closely resemble those in the Anderson Feri tradition. Still a bit ooky-spooky on that one.

'98-03: Adapt Thelema as a philosophical model. Get an interest in Sumerian/Canaanite religion. Also start some Discordian funkiness.

'03-04: Pretty much a hardline Thelemite.

'04-06: Join a Gardnerian/British Traditional coven so as to have a group to do rituals with. Leave with great flourish.

'06-present: Basically, I'm what would happen if you filtered Anderson's Feri through a traditional (as in, Dark Goddess/Destruction of Boundaries/Kali-style) Left-Hand Path. I've got a near-fanatical devotion to the insular "fae" goddesses of the British Isles. I've also assisted with a pagan kid's group, taught ceremonial magick to a couple people, been published a few times in a regional pagan quarterly...stuff like that. I'm also able to discuss my beliefs as purely psychological constructs, and value them both as a form of spirituality and as a psycho-social framework.

So, what's your story?

 

[HeathenWarrior]

I am not threatened by people talking about their faiths. However, I find it rather...annoying...when people try to claim they have the only way, when they have no more evidence then pages of a book, or that they have been spiritually "enlightened".

I used to be Christian, but simply could not identify with it. I became Asatru, and it fits me and my worldview perfectly. I have nothing at all against Christ. He was truly a gift to the world, with the love he demonstrated. But as loving as he was, I see no need to worship him.

Besides, I cannot abandon the gods anymore then I can swim on land...

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

Oh but I am.

not to mention humble

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

I have spoken to Deity(/deities) about Jesus in the past, have brought up relevant Bible verses (and lines from other holy texts) in conversation with both Deity and spirits, and there has been a cross and Bible verse on my ancestor shrine for years now - which is right next to my other shrines (since I live in a small apartment, space is tight)... and you know what? It's never been an issue. No one gets agitated, angry, or anything else... reactions have been the same as on most other topics. So...

Do the spirits acknowledge He is the Son of God the Holy one? as they did in the bible Mathew 8:29, Mark 1:24, If they do not acknowledge Him as such, I would say they are lying spirits because there's only two solutions Jesus Christ was who He said He was, the Son of God and the only path to the Father or He was a raving lunitic, and should not be trusted at all. read His words and make a decision, Son of God or madman......He can't be both.......this is for the earlier poster, who reminded me of this dilema

 

[b&wpac7]

there's only two solutions Jesus Christ was who He said He was, the Son of God and the only path to the Father or He was a raving lunitic, and should not be trusted at all. read His words and make a decision, Son of God or madman......He can't be both

So, what you're saying is that someone with a mental illness is incapable of providing any good advice? Especially when a lot of what he said had been said prior?

I also like how it's either completely sane or a raving lunatic. You are being so kind to those with mental illnesses, since they are all raving lunatics from your description.

 

[sidhe]

Do the spirits acknowledge He is the Son of God the Holy one? as they did in the bible Mathew 8:29, Mark 1:24, If they do not acknowledge Him as such, I would say they are lying spirits because there's only two solutions Jesus Christ was who He said He was, the Son of God and the only path to the Father or He was a raving lunitic, and should not be trusted at all. read His words and make a decision, Son of God or madman......He can't be both

People with mental illness can be capable of considerable insight and brilliance; see Sylvia Plath, Susanna Kaysen, James Taylor, Nikolai Tesla....

The "Lord, Liar, Lunatic" argument is a false trilemma - there are options outside of those three.

 

[kranberrydude]

Still sounds like propaganda to me because it hits almost all of the themes commonly heard in witch to Christian story: sex, drugs, rock and roll, depression, angry teenager, wanting power etc. Perhaps Gardenia can confirm that Wiccans do not worship trees (I've never known any who did). And everything ends happily ever after after converting. All I can say is that I'm glad she's happy.

has your own religion made you truly happy? have you found in there what you heart longs for or are you still lacking that of what you search for?

I'm glad she's found her happiness, and I do like hearing the stories of other people... but, truth is, you can find people telling the same sort of tale about ALL religions. One story, even a dozen, it's not enough to be convincing in itself. I already feel the things converts to Christianity often describe in my own religion, you know?

but if she found her happiness, wouldn't you at least search Christ with sincerity, not necessarily leaving your religion, but at least trying to see if Christ is real? it won't hurt asking him to reveal himself to you, if you do with sincerity and nothing happens, then go on with your life.

The other strange thing about these stories is that the conversion is always like a light switch. These people practice a religion for years and then just suddenly convert. That's pretty inconsistent when (in my experience), pagan religions develop over time and then there's a full paradigm shift in a very short time span. And then what happens to all of the previous experiences after the change? They just abandon them and pretend they never happened?

C.S. Lewis' conversion was not certainly a ''light switch'' conversion, he really analyzed theism and christianity, all the way up to the moment he concluded Jesus was the son of God. It was not all sudden, he went from atheism to theism, and from theism to christianity.

Well, my guess? Testimonies aren't just tools to try and convert non-believers, they can also serve as affirmations of faith to the believers ("look, God has saved this person and totally changed their life, God is powerful/good/etc and I'm on the right path!") - for either, the more dramatic stories are what people want to pass around. The sudden conversion fits that criteria, so either the stories get embellished to make the conversion more sudden than it was, or these people really did convert quickly (not unheard of - some do convert quickly and never look back - one of my friends became Christian and burned all her old pagan books and whatnot...) and since it makes for a better story, they're the ones more likely to be passed on. Could say the same for the standard sex, drugs, drinking line that comes up so often.

you say that about the 'right path', but isn't truth exclusive? if i say a pear is green and another person says the pear is red, are they both correct or only one of them is correct? Jesus is the only one who claimed to be the way and the truth, have other religions claimed that?

 

[b&wpac7]

People with mental illness can be capable of considerable insight and brilliance; see Sylvia Plath, Susanna Kaysen, James Taylor, Nikolai Tesla....

The "Lord, Liar, Lunatic" argument is a false trilemma - there are options outside of those three.

Reminds me of a story:

A guy gets a flat tire in front of a mental hospital.
As he's putting on the spare, the four nuts for securing the tire to the car accidentally fall down a storm grate. He's distraught because he doesn't know what to do.
A mental patient watching the whole episode from behind a fence says: "Why don't you just take one nut off each of the other three tires and put the spare on with those? That should hold you until you get to a service station."
The man is amazed. What a great idea!
Then he says, "But you're a mental patient. How'd you think of something so clever?"
The patient says, "I'm just crazy, not stupid."

 

[b&wpac7]

but if she found her happiness, wouldn't you at least search Christ with sincerity, not necessarily leaving your religion, but at least trying to see if Christ is real? it won't hurt asking him to reveal himself to you, if you do with sincerity and nothing happens, then go on with your life.

When I was losing my faith in Christianity I asked and asked. Nothing happened. I even became an atheist because, at the time, I couldn't separate God from Jesus. Once I got past that, I found God again and decided to become a Jew.

 

[kranberrydude]

When I was losing my faith in Christianity I asked and asked. Nothing happened. I even became an atheist because, at the time, I couldn't separate God from Jesus. Once I got past that, I found God again and decided to become a Jew.

do you remember what exactly did you ask God at that time?

 

[b&wpac7]

do you remember what did you ask God at that time?

I remember asking multiple things. Asked to be shown that I needed faith in Jesus to be saved from Hell, if God existed, if Jesus's work was true, if God/Jesus would reveal Himself to me (the concepts were intertwined in my mind, so I couldn't separate "Jesus" from "God") that kind of stuff. This was a decade ago and I don't remember all the specifics. It took me 2-3 years of this doubting phase before I started to think that either I wasn't supposed to be on that path or nobody was listening. It would take another seven for me to find my belief in God.

Forgive me for jumping to assumptions, but if you're going to respond that I didn't ask the correct questions and that I need a new set, please don't bother. The God I worship knows my heart and would not withhold knowledge because I didn't phrase the question correctly. He is not someone like Loki.

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

So, what you're saying is that someone with a mental illness is incapable of providing any good advice? Especially when a lot of what he said had been said prior?

I also like how it's either completely sane or a raving lunatic. You are being so kind to those with mental illnesses, since they are all raving lunatics from your description.

No I am saying He's either a light bearer of truth or He's a liar and can't be trusted. people who were around Him witnessed the spirits acknowledging Him as the Son of the most high God, He said he was the Son of God, He operated in power that even the wind and waves obeyed His commands, evil spirits were cast out of people just by His name. So its hardly feasable to think he had a mental illness, unless you want to attribute his 12 disciples who wrote about the man as being mentally deficient also. Jesus didn't write any of the gospels, so really Its either the Disciples are lying about what they seen and witnessed......oh and I guess the Apostle Paul who had a supernatural experience encounter with Jesus after He was dead....he wrote most of the new testiment.....then there's the millions of people who testify about their own personal encounters whether its hardly likely that a man with mental illness could of caused such a commotion two thousand years ago, in the three years He ministered, to have the kind of results we are still witnessing today. basic logic would tell you there has to be somthing going on here, Whether you believe in Jesus or not, His power and name trumps any and all power you can bring to the table, from any deity or satan himself, The power in Jesus name brings every spirit to there knees, thats just a fact, if your going to worship a god you might as well go to the top of the list and worship the one all the others have to answer too

 

[b&wpac7]

You like creating a ton of false dichotomies, don't you?

No I am saying He's either a light bearer of truth or He's a liar and can't be trusted.

Or mistaken, or misunderstood.

people who were around Him witnessed the spirits acknowledging Him as the Son of the most high God, He said he was the Son of God, He operated in power that even the wind and waves obeyed His commands, evil spirits were cast out of people just by His name.

So claims the New Testament. None of these events seems newsworthy enough for the literate rabbis and other Jewish folk to write about. No, it was only newsworthy a few decades later. According to Matthew, the dead rose and walked into Jerusalem. I hardly think that it would go so unnoticed.

So its hardly feasable to think he had a mental illness, unless you want to attribute his 12 disciples who wrote about the man as being mentally deficient also. Jesus didn't write any of the gospels, so really Its either the Disciples are lying about what they seen and witnessed

Or they didn't write the gospels. How do you know they wrote them?

......oh and I guess the Apostle Paul who had a supernatural experience encounter with Jesus after He was dead....he wrote most of the new testiment.....

And I take issue with much of what Paul says. He loves to take verses from the Tanakh, cut them in half or just flatly change them, and then claim it as doctrine. I don't trust anybody who does that, so why should I trust Paul?

then there's the millions of people who testify about their own personal encounters whether its hardly likely that a man with mental illness could of caused such a commotion two thousand years ago, in the three years He ministered, to have the kind of results we are still witnessing today.

The truth is the truth. I don't care if two billion people disagree with the one guy with the truth, the truth is still the truth. Numbers do not make something correct.

basic logic would tell you there has to be somthing going on here,

Of course something is going on. I fully believe that Christianity and Islam are necessary components for the coming of the messiah.

Whether you believe in Jesus or not, His power and name trumps any and all power you can bring to the table, from any deity or satan himself, The power in Jesus name brings every spirit to there knees, thats just a fact, if your going to worship a god you might as well go to the top of the list and worship the one all the others have to answer too

I worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I bow to none other, and nowhere in my scriptures does He claim the name "Jesus" or "Yeshua". I pray not in a name or to a name I was not told to.

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

I remember asking multiple things. Asked to be shown that I needed faith in Jesus to be saved from Hell, if God existed, if Jesus's work was true, if God/Jesus would reveal Himself to me (the concepts were intertwined in my mind, so I couldn't separate "Jesus" from "God") that kind of stuff. This was a decade ago and I don't remember all the specifics. It took me 2-3 years of this doubting phase before I started to think that either I wasn't supposed to be on that path or nobody was listening. It would take another seven for me to find my belief in God.

Forgive me for jumping to assumptions, but if you're going to respond that I didn't ask the correct questions and that I need a new set, please don't bother. The God I worship knows my heart and would not withhold knowledge because I didn't phrase the question correctly. He is not someone like Loki.

So really what it boils down to is you demanded God answer you in your timing not His, my guess is that before you die God will answer you and hopefully you won't be found like myself, on a completely wrong path going the opposite direction from heaven. then like myself He will show you how all this time He's been calling you and its been you who wasn't listening to His still small voice, telling you He still loves you, and wants only whats best for you, like any good Father would. The thing about the God of Israel is He claims He is the God above every god, which leaves you to wonder why people would be drawn to the multitude of little gods and spiritual guides when the God above all gods wants to have a personal relationship with you Himself, and is quite annoyed by all these other self proclaimed gods and goddesses who are trying to take worship and devotion away from Him. but He tells what will happen to them in the end. Thats the great thing about the one true God, He gives you a map for the future, of things that will take place ahead of time, and why its important to be in the right camp

 

[b&wpac7]

So really what it boils down to is you demanded God answer you in your timing not His, my guess is that before you die God will answer you and hopefully you won't be found like myself, on a completely wrong path going the opposite direction from heaven.

He did answer me. I am worshiping the God is Israel.

I mean, if you don't want to listen to me, that's fine, but don't respond to me without reading what I wrote correctly. I HAVE a personal relationship with God. I didn't need some other route. When I found God again, I found that relationship and knew what I had to do. Three years and a conversion later, I am now a Jew. It is the exact path God wanted me to take.

 

[HE84]

I think that the best way to go about this is just to SHOW them through your actions and who you are as a person. Your example can speak volumes more than words will ever do.

Topics of this nature are a touchy matter for many people. If you are too "preachy" them you might even repell some people into thinking that is all you do. In the bible it says there is a time for all things.... there is a time to talk about sports.... cars....family...etc...

 

[sanjaya1984]

but if she found her happiness, wouldn't you at least search Christ with sincerity, not necessarily leaving your religion, but at least trying to see if Christ is real? it won't hurt asking him to reveal himself to you, if you do with sincerity and nothing happens, then go on with your life.

Though this is addressed to another poster, I feel I should mention that I have done precisely this. Back in college I was very interested in Christianity. I read the entire Bible, went to churches, attended Bible studies, etc. I ended up deciding not to convert and abandon the religious heritage I already have. In effect, I did go on with my life. Christians seem to be under the impression that anyone who is sufficiently exposed to the Bible and Christian community will end up converting; this isn't the case.

 

[vespasia]

b&wpac7

Jesus family did express concern about his sanity [Mark 3:21] and the wider Jewish society he was a part of also questioned this. [John 10:20] To devalue the spiritual experience of those who are labelled mad is to attempt to remove a human freedom to experience God. I do not consider Christ Jesus was mad, simply that he deeply challenged the already deeply divided hebrew people. At this period of time the factions existant in Isreal and Judiah [sp?] make the example from Monty Pythons 'Life of Brian' appear rather tame and certainly the exiles and Roman Empire had allowed an expansion of the Hebrew people.

The only gospel with clearly documented authorship is Luke- a Greek Doctor and not a disciple. Most scholars consider Mark was derived from an oral version of Peter whereas Matthew remains contested as it has similarities with the oral route of Mark that most biblical scholars conclude as indicative of the author not being a disciple named Matthew but another Matthew. John has no known author but was scribed after 70AD but before 100AD and most scholars debate which John it might have been given the popularity of the name at the time.

The idea of a personal relationship with God is derived from Evangelical Christianity- perhaps from the route of the Morovanians. The concept of 'what a friend we have in Jesus' is therefore fairly recent.

I prefer the via negativa [apophatic theological] concept of God to a populist buddy Jesus version. God is God and as such God is awesome so to dismiss the awe side of God is to try and fit God into the image man says God should have.

I loved your story of the wheel and the nuts. It is a valid point and well made.

 

[b&wpac7]

Jesus family did express concern about his sanity [Mark 3:21] and the wider Jewish society he was a part of also questioned this. [John 10:20] To devalue the spiritual experience of those who are labelled mad is to attempt to remove a human freedom to experience God. I do not consider Christ Jesus was mad, simply that he deeply challenged the already deeply divided hebrew people. At this period of time the factions existant in Isreal and Judiah [sp?] make the example from Monty Pythons 'Life of Brian' appear rather tame and certainly the exiles and Roman Empire had allowed an expansion of the Hebrew people.

I'm not even saying he was crazy or insane for sure. Someone can just be wrong but sincere and not crazy. It was, as you said, a period of time where plenty of messianic claimants rose up and, without exception, all died prior to completing the task as Jews see it laid out in the Tanakh. The New Testament changes the task to be completed and puts a lot of the prophecies at a return date. I take a wait-and-see attitude.

Israel, the northern kingdom, had been carried off long, long before this. The divisions came form the different schools of thought and mainly between the Pharisees and Saducces. All were pretty much looking for someone to come and deliver them from the Roman Empire. It was simply not to be.

The only gospel with clearly documented authorship is Luke- a Greek Doctor and not a disciple. Most scholars consider Mark was derived from an oral version of Peter whereas Matthew remains contested as it has similarities with the oral route of Mark that most biblical scholars conclude as indicative of the author not being a disciple named Matthew but another Matthew. John has no known author but was scribed after 70AD but before 100AD and most scholars debate which John it might have been given the popularity of the name at the time

With you on this.

The idea of a personal relationship with God is derived from Evangelical Christianity- perhaps from the route of the Morovanians. The concept of 'what a friend we have in Jesus' is therefore fairly recent.

Well, in several places God calls Abraham His friend. I believe that by walking with God, one can have a relationship. There is, however, no barrier between us and God that prevents this. I certainly don't believe one must become or be a Jew to have this relationship.

I loved your story of the wheel and the nuts. It is a valid point and well made.

One of my favorites when the Liar, Lunatic, Lord argument comes up.