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Threatening??
- Thread starter JordanDaniel
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T
Tariki
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It seemed a fine post by Booko, at least to me. The implication of her words being that each should seek to BE the "good news" to each other, rather that seeking to preach the Good News AT another. The latter method, more often than not, resulting in rejection..........
Once again I would resort to the words of the Catholic Trappist monk, Thomas Merton, who spoke tellingly of the "reification of faith".....
Real meaning of the phrase we are saved by faith = we are saved by Christ, whom we encounter in faith. But constant disputation about faith has made Christians become obsessed with faith almost as an object, at least as an experience, a "thing" and in concentrating upon it they lose sight of Christ. Whereas faith without the encounter with Christ and without His presence is less than nothing. It is the deadest of dead works, an act elicited in a moral and existential void. To seek to believe that one believes, and arbitrarily to decree that one believes, and then to conclude that this gymnastic has been blessed by Christ - this is pathological Christianity. And a Christianity of works. One has this mental gymnastic in which to trust. One is safe, one possesses the psychic key to salvation......
It seems that many identify their very own "works" of "acceptance" of the "good news" as meaning that they by default become the spiritual man (or woman!) who "understands", and those who have rejected whatever words and slogans they these worthy souls identify with the "good news" automatically become "unbelievers", the "perishing", the "natural man" who does not understand the foolishness of God.
Yet if we look for the presence of Christ, the light that lights all who come into the world, recognition can be given to the light that many have, irrespective of creed. We can actually approach other human beings, not as perishing objects waiting for our own "truth", but as human beings who perhaps have a truth of their own, approach them as someone that the divine has already touched according to their own uniqueness.
Merton, again, speaks of the foolishness of God, and relates it to two kinds of wisdom. The first, which consists of knowledge of words and statements - rational, dialectical. But the true wisdom is a matter of paradox and of experience, and goes beyond the reach of reason To attain such wisdom is to be liberated from a servile dependence on the "wisdom of speech". Such liberation is effected by the "word of the Cross" which makes no sense to those who cling to their own familiar views and habits of thought...
So it goes on. Looking back, and looking around, such true wisdom is found in the words and lives of many, of all faiths, and of none. For me it is founded upon Grace, not works.
The beginning of love is to let those we love be perfectly themselves, and not to twist them to fit our own image. Otherwise we love only the reflection of ourselves we find in them.
Once again I would resort to the words of the Catholic Trappist monk, Thomas Merton, who spoke tellingly of the "reification of faith".....
Real meaning of the phrase we are saved by faith = we are saved by Christ, whom we encounter in faith. But constant disputation about faith has made Christians become obsessed with faith almost as an object, at least as an experience, a "thing" and in concentrating upon it they lose sight of Christ. Whereas faith without the encounter with Christ and without His presence is less than nothing. It is the deadest of dead works, an act elicited in a moral and existential void. To seek to believe that one believes, and arbitrarily to decree that one believes, and then to conclude that this gymnastic has been blessed by Christ - this is pathological Christianity. And a Christianity of works. One has this mental gymnastic in which to trust. One is safe, one possesses the psychic key to salvation......
It seems that many identify their very own "works" of "acceptance" of the "good news" as meaning that they by default become the spiritual man (or woman!) who "understands", and those who have rejected whatever words and slogans they these worthy souls identify with the "good news" automatically become "unbelievers", the "perishing", the "natural man" who does not understand the foolishness of God.
Yet if we look for the presence of Christ, the light that lights all who come into the world, recognition can be given to the light that many have, irrespective of creed. We can actually approach other human beings, not as perishing objects waiting for our own "truth", but as human beings who perhaps have a truth of their own, approach them as someone that the divine has already touched according to their own uniqueness.
Merton, again, speaks of the foolishness of God, and relates it to two kinds of wisdom. The first, which consists of knowledge of words and statements - rational, dialectical. But the true wisdom is a matter of paradox and of experience, and goes beyond the reach of reason To attain such wisdom is to be liberated from a servile dependence on the "wisdom of speech". Such liberation is effected by the "word of the Cross" which makes no sense to those who cling to their own familiar views and habits of thought...
So it goes on. Looking back, and looking around, such true wisdom is found in the words and lives of many, of all faiths, and of none. For me it is founded upon Grace, not works.
The beginning of love is to let those we love be perfectly themselves, and not to twist them to fit our own image. Otherwise we love only the reflection of ourselves we find in them.
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Eudaimonist
I believe in life before death!
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It isn't the gospel that is offensive, it is the Christians who are pushy with evangelizing that act in an offensive way.
eudaimonia,
Mark
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Eudaimonist
I believe in life before death!
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T
Tariki
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How should you treat a bird?
As yourself
Or as a bird?
Bad enough for a sea bird
To be surrounded by men
And frightened by their voices!
That was not enough!
They killed it with music!
Play all the symphonies you like
On the marshlands of Thung-Ting.
The birds will fly away
In all directions;
The animals will hide;
The fish will dive to the bottom;
But men
Will gather around to listen.
Water is for fish
And air for men.
Natures differ, and needs with them.
Hence the wise men of old
Did not lay down
One measure for all.
"Symphony for a Sea Bird" Chuang Tzu
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T
Tariki
Guest
Yes, I've just taken a look back through the thread, and now see what you mean. Sorry, I misinterpreted your initial statement about feeling as if you do not exist.
Still, at least a bit of Chuang Tzu never comes amiss.
Hopefully others will take a peep at your questions and seek to give their "answer"..............perhaps with the recognition of whether you are fish, bird, man.........or even a contented man of the Jewish Faith.
(Sadly, and I suffer from this at times, most simply want to make a statement, rather than genuinely communicate, learn or exchange views)
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T
Tariki
Guest
No worries. I like reading what you post.
Even when it has nothing to do with the question!
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Well if it's any consolation, I don't think anyone actually read my post either. I feel like I make some reasonably novel objections to Christianity, but rarely do Christians actually address them.
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In reference to your family values objection, the verse will simply be posted:
Luke 14:26
If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple
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Booko
Poultry in Motion
While it's true that the Message of the cross is foolishness to some, I would advise taking care that it's actually the Message people are reacting adversely to and not the approach of the person giving that Message.
The Message of the Cross itself has no need of humility, but the messenger...well it can be helpful.
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Yes, I'm sure Christian rationalizing is possible in a variety of circumstances. But I don't think this verse does anything for the case for family values. I'm still left wondering how Christianity can hope to claim the market on family values.
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Booko
Poultry in Motion
Very much so.
I'd make a more general point about the dangers of acting out of one's ego rather than out of the Will of God.
(I could rephrase that to cover situations that have nothing to do with religion and involve those who do not believe in God, as it seems to be one of those useful universal principles of life.)
The Buddha had this principle as part of the Four Noble Truths, in which He said (essentially) that the root of suffering is attachment.
Other religions, and even areligious philosophies, have recognized this principle in their own version.
And this is how it relates to people being threatened/offended by having the Gospel preached to them:
Is it the Gospel itself, or the person doing the preaching who's acting out of their own ego/attachment?
In my experience, it's the latter more than the former.
Now, I would say St. Paul certainly had a point in his letter to Corinth that goes beyond the "offensive delivery of message" problem, in that the Gospel can be a challenge and people may reject that challenge, even when the deliverer of that Message is not acting out of their own ego.
Frankly, I would be more than a bit suspicious of any religion or philosophy that didn't make some demands on me to improve myself.
And really, who among us really enjoys finding out that we're wrong about something and need to shape up in some way?
Sometimes people will take up the challenge and sometimes they don't.
For the author of the OP I would say this as well: When you're talking to someone about the Gospel, it might be helpful to keep in mind that you are just that sower planting a seed. You may never live to see that seed sprout, but it might, whether you're there to see it or not. The important thing for you is to just pay attention to when it's planting season and try to avoid being attached to results.
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