Threatening??

[Booko]

Yes, I'm sure Christian rationalizing is possible in a variety of circumstances. But I don't think this verse does anything for the case for family values. I'm still left wondering how Christianity can hope to claim the market on family values.

Rationalizing is possible for probably every endeavor in life, religious or otherwise.

Was Christianity trying to claim the market on family values? (I may have missed something in the posts of late.)

 

[sanjaya1984]

Rationalizing is possible for probably every endeavor in life, religious or otherwise.

Was Christianity trying to claim the market on family values? (I may have missed something in the posts of late.)

Well yes, this is the impression I get based on my conversations with evangelicals. I see such claims made in American politics too.

 

[Booko]

Well yes, this is the impression I get based on my conversations with evangelicals. I see such claims made in American politics too.

Oh yes, I see what you mean.

Still, they are a minority within Christianity, even in this country.

They do have an influence in some areas of American politics, which is where the "family values" things usually turns up.

All that shows me is that mixing politics and religion is dangerous for both politics...and religion.

It's not like religious views cannot or should not ever have a place in discussions on public policy, but joining the two at the hip isn't exactly rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's either.

I dunno, at this point when a candidate for public office tries to put the label "family values" on himself I start wondering what is hiding in the bushes...interns? prostitutes? men in airport bathrooms? lovers...maybe even paid with state or campaign funds?

 

[sanjaya1984]

Oh yes, I see what you mean.

Still, they are a minority within Christianity, even in this country.

Here's a Gallup poll which gives Americans' responses to certain questions:

U.S. Evangelicals: How Many Walk the Walk?

As of 2005, 32% of Americans claim that the Bible is the word of God, and 48% describe themselves as born again. But over half of evangelicals have tried to convert someone to Christianity. While I don't personally dictate what someone else ought to believe, the conversion attempts are what I find uniquely dangerous (or "threatening" if you will) about Christianity. This, along with the large financial resources that go into missionary work, is why I express such concern.

They do have an influence in some areas of American politics, which is where the "family values" things usually turns up.

All that shows me is that mixing politics and religion is dangerous for both politics...and religion.

It's not like religious views cannot or should not ever have a place in discussions on public policy, but joining the two at the hip isn't exactly rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's either.

I dunno, at this point when a candidate for public office tries to put the label "family values" on himself I start wondering what is hiding in the bushes...interns? prostitutes? men in airport bathrooms? lovers...maybe even paid with state or campaign funds?

Yes, I do understand what you mean. Personally I wouldn't actually mind family values in politics, if they were truly family-based and not Christian-based. My problem is that Christian claims of family values seem like thinly-veiled attempts to convert others to Christianity.

 

[Tariki]

There has been some truly pertinent things said. It also seems appropriate to repeat again a quote from the letters of Thomas Merton concerning "evangelisation"....


I hate proselytizing. This awful buisness of making others just like oneself so that one is thereby "justified" and under no obligation to change himself. What a terrible thing this can be. The source of how many sicknesses in the world. The true Christian apostolate is nothing of this sort, a fact that Christians themselves have largely forgotten. I think it was......Tauler (or maybe Eckhart) who said in a sermon that even if the church were empty he would preach the sermon to the four walls because he had to. That is the true apostolic spirit, based not on the desire to make others conform, but in the desire to proclaim and announce the good tidings of God's infinite love. In this context the preacher is not a "converter" but merely a herald, a voice, and the Spirit of the Lord is left free to act as He pleases. But this has degenerated into a doctrine and fashion of "convert-makers" in which man exerts pressure and techniques (this awful business of "modern techniques of propaganda") upon his fellow man in order to make him, force him, bring him under a kind of charm that compels him to abandon his own integrity and his own freedom and yield to another man or another institution. Little do men realize that in such a situation the Holy Spirit is silent and inactive, or perhaps active against the insolence of man. Hence the multitude of honest and sincere men who "cannot accept" a message that is preached without respect for the Spirit of God or for the spirit of man.

( Sorry about his non PC language....... .........but the letter was written in the 1960's)

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

What is your answer to those who say they don't find it offensive?

They need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as He is the Messiah that all the old testiment prophesied about, repent of their sins and except Jesus who offered Himself as the sacrificial Lamb once and for all, and those who put their faith in Him will be saved

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

So I have to ask.

Am I a God hating pagan?

I wouldn't think so since you appear to have the faith of Judism, the point of the matter is what Jesus said "who loves me more the person who had a multitude of sins forgiven or the person who had a few" (my own paraphrase) obviously its the one who had greater amount of sins to be forgiven, which is why Paul was such a great Apostle, since previously he was having Christians stoned to death and put into prison, then when confronted by Jesus who knocked him off his horse in a blinding light, He became one of the greatest Apostles, simply because the debt he realized Jesus paid was far greater than he could ever achieve.

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

I think our Lord said it better, "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town" (Matthew 10:14). Salvation is of the Lord. We cannot save anyone, coerce anyone or force anyone to accept Christ Jesus as Savior. I could only guess and say that the majority of Christians today have never had a "Road to Damascus' experience which led them to the Lord.

I agree whole heartedly we cannot save anyone, and that is why when faced with rejection, I don't try to coerce, or beg and plead with people. but I do get sad because I was once unsaved and actually I had a supernatural encounter with an angel, and once I seen how utterly sinful I was, (because I was shown all my sin) I repented and now I am a man who was forgiven alot, so I tend to love Jesus alot, I've never been the same since

 

[awitch]

Originally Posted by b&wpac7

Am I a God hating pagan?

I wouldn't think so since you appear to have the faith of Judism,

Sorry, sorry! I misread that. Retracting.

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

Here's a good example why non-Christians are put off by Christians and their message.

Don't be offended! I'm refering to myself, I was a God hating pagan, who worshiped myself, and practiced all kinds of witchcraft. God showed me that He was real, His Son Jesus is real, and that He loved me even though I hated Him, when I realized that Jesus died as a human sacrifice for everything I had done wrong, and was sorry for everything I had done wrong, somthing amazing happened, to wild to even describe, but a huge hand (couldn't see it) but I knew it was there, it reached inside my heart and pulled out, these lying evil spirits that were inside me, and as they were yanked out I could hear them screaming now in their own voices not in mine as they used too, All the lies and deception they had filled my mind with, spirits can mimic your own voice and make you think things are your own ideas. Anyway after they were gone, a peace I have never felt, and a joy I had never known just filled my heart, and now I am completely different then the man I used to be

 

[b&wpac7]

They need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as He is the Messiah that all the old testiment prophesied about, repent of their sins and except Jesus who offered Himself as the sacrificial Lamb once and for all, and those who put their faith in Him will be saved

I use the scripture of the Jewish Bible (Old Testament) to prove I have no need of such a figure as I am provided the ways to be forgiven of sin and be reconciled with God outside of a man being killed or blood being spilled. Why should I trust your assessment?

 

[awitch]

Don't be offended! I'm refering to myself, I was a God hating pagan, who worshiped myself, and practiced all kinds of witchcraft.

My apologies! I misread your earlier post which said you WOULDN'T think b&w was a god hating pagan. I read it as you did think of him that way...

Having heard this story many times, I'd be curious to know what tradition you followed and what practices you performed and for how long.

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

I use the scripture of the Jewish Bible (Old Testament) to prove I have no need of such a figure as I am provided the ways to be forgiven of sin and be reconciled with God outside of a man being killed or blood being spilled. Why should I trust your assessment?

I'm sorry other than animal sacrifice I know of no other form in Judism that is able to cleanse a man of his sins, How do you find this reconcilation to God without blood (for without blood there can be no forgiveness of sins)

 

[b&wpac7]

I'm sorry other than animal sacrifice I know of no other form in Judism that is able to cleanse a man of his sins, How do you find this reconcilation to God without blood (for without blood there can be no forgiveness of sins)

"for without blood" is a quote from Paul. You won't find it in my scriptures.

We are told to turn back to God and He will forgive us.

For example, Ezekiel 18:
21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?


So, tell me, how did you gain your knowledge of Judaism to know what methods of atonement exist?

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

My apologies! I misread your earlier post which said you WOULDN'T think b&w was a god hating pagan. I read it as you did think of him that way...

Having heard this story many times, I'd be curious to know what tradition you followed and what practices you performed and for how long.

curiousity killed the cat, let me just say how connected are you to the Kalderasha, the ones who run Wicca, how much do you dare to reveal before your afriad....lol

 

[awitch]

curiousity killed the cat, let me just say how connected are you to the Kalderasha, the ones who run Wicca, how much do you dare to reveal before your afriad....lol

I don't understand what you are talking about. I'm not Wiccan.

I have to consider your answer a cop out. I am doubting that you ever practiced any form of paganism. My reasoning is that this is a classic tactic to proselytize to pagans.

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

"for without blood" is a quote from Paul. You won't find it in my scriptures.

We are told to turn back to God and He will forgive us.

For example, Ezekiel 18:
21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?


So, tell me, how did you gain your knowledge of Judaism to know what methods of atonement exist?

your book of law and the prophets, your God made a covenant with your people, and those who reside with them. I wasn't aware there was a loop hole around the tradition of animal sacrifice for the atonement of sins, I thought that was part of keeping His decrees and statutes" but I'm not a Jew so I'm sure you would no more on this issue. The written covanent was one of blessings and curses, one if you obeyed, the other if you had not.......historically would you say Israel appears to be under the blessing or the curse. I would think even if one were to be a follower of Judism there would be a strong need to rebuild the temple at the very least.

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

I don't understand what you are talking about. I'm not Wiccan.

I have to consider your answer a cop out. I am doubting that you ever practiced any form of paganism. My reasoning is that this is a classic tactic to proselytize to pagans.

I'm sorry your tittle calls you "awitch" and your faith symbol says your pagan, my misinterpretation! are you possibly a new ager? as for thinking I'm trying to proselytize to pagans, I'm not......in fact, I was surprised pagans are even on here, this is a Christian website not a pagan one, if I had set out to make an effort to convince pagans Jesus is the Lord and God over all, I wouldn't have come here, I would have gone to your home turf, A pagan website, which makes me wonder why your here, maybe your here to proselytize paganism to Christians?.....that theory makes more sense.......but deep down I think you have found paganism empty and are searching for truth, and God has brought you here in search of it, Thats a good sign for you anyway

 

[b&wpac7]

your book of law and the prophets, your God made a covenant with your people, and those who reside with them. I wasn't aware there was a loop hole around the tradition of animal sacrifice for the atonement of sins, I thought that was part of keeping His decrees and statutes" but I'm not a Jew so I'm sure you would no more on this issue. The written covanent was one of blessings and curses, one if you obeyed, the other if you had not.......historically would you say Israel appears to be under the blessing or the curse. I would think even if one were to be a follower of Judism there would be a strong need to rebuild the temple at the very least.

It isn't a loop hole around animal sacrifice. The overemphasis of animal sacrifice is one of the foremost themes of many of the prophets. In many respects it became viewed as some sort of magic charm when that was never God's plan. Read Leviticus, especially the early part about the sacrifices and you'll find something amazing. The ones for sin were only about unintentional sin. There is nothing in there about sacrifices for intentional sin. All sin could be forgiven by turning back to God, repenting, and trying to walk that line again.

I would say that Israel certainly walked the curse line a lot more. That is corporate Israel, not the remnant that God said would never abandon Him. It is this remnant that still exists today. It is a very small percentage of total Jews.

There is a strong desire to rebuild the Temple, as it is one of the things that will happen in the messianic age. Ezekiel gives us the dimensions of the third Temple and it will be massive. However, it must be built on the Temple mount, and currently that isn't possible.

 

[awitch]

I'm sorry your tittle calls you "awitch" and your faith symbol says your pagan, my misinterpretation! are you possibly a new ager?

I am a pagan and/or witch, but I am not Wiccan and definitely not New Ager.