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Common misconceptions

INTJ-F

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Easy G (G²);57481650 said:
Glad to know that I'm not the only one who has seen that in some of the friends/family I have. Its wild to see how many assume Jewish people or Messianics are disconnected from having fun. Really, if Jesus's first miracle was attending a wedding in Cana (John 2), its odd to see how people assume that Hebraic culture is against having a good time;):cool:

When I have money, I fly airplanes, ride and show horses, take numerous day trips, enjoy photography, hiking, travel, attend concerts and plays, baseball games, etc. Of course now I keep Shabbat and many events are scheduled for saturday only, that leaves me out f participating in some events.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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When I have money, I fly airplanes, ride and show horses, take numerous day trips, enjoy photography, hiking, travel, attend concerts and plays, baseball games, etc. Of course now I keep Shabbat and many events are scheduled for saturday only, that leaves me out f participating in some events.
Hello.
The is what perplexes me concerning the MJ sect of Christianity. No offense, but why do the MJs specifically pick Saturday for the Sabbath instead of another day? Thank you :wave: :groupray:

http://www.christianforums.com/t5666729-6/#post36544371
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Saturday or Sunday? Which is the "true" Sabbath?

quote OP:
Most Christians go to Church on Sunday and acknowledge this day as the Sabbath day. Many Christians also believe that the "true" Sabbath day is Saturday. The fourth commandment says:

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy...........

We are to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. While we should keep this commandment just like we should keep all of the commandments, do you think it matters if we do this on Saturday or Sunday? Basically I just want to make sure that I'm not breaking this commandment by observing Sunday as the Sabbath day even if Saturday truly is. Thanks. God bless.

Kory
 
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visionary

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Hello.
The is what perplexes me concerning the MJ sect of Christianity. No offense, but why do the MJs specifically pick Saturday for the Sabbath instead of another day? Thank you :wave: :groupray:

http://www.christianforums.com/t5666729-6/#post36544371
icon5.gif
Saturday or Sunday? Which is the "true" Sabbath?

quote OP:
Most Christians go to Church on Sunday and acknowledge this day as the Sabbath day. Many Christians also believe that the "true" Sabbath day is Saturday. The fourth commandment says:

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy...........

We are to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. While we should keep this commandment just like we should keep all of the commandments, do you think it matters if we do this on Saturday or Sunday? Basically I just want to make sure that I'm not breaking this commandment by observing Sunday as the Sabbath day even if Saturday truly is. Thanks. God bless.

Kory
God picked it.. we just obey it..besides it has been blessed..it is like good food, tastes better after it has been blessed:thumbsup:
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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God picked it.. we just obey it..besides it has been blessed..it is like good food, tastes better after it has been blessed:thumbsup:
If you are happy with Saturday, that is ok with me :thumbsup: :) :hug:
 
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INTJ-F

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The is what perplexes me concerning the MJ sect of Christianity. No offense, but why do the MJs specifically pick Saturday for the Sabbath instead of another day? Thank you


Because God told us which day to keep as His Sabbath. Anything else is a perversion
. It's like the Holy Temple Priests that told Ezekiel (who God sent to tell them to repent) to "Go away, Ezekiel, we will worship God OUR way"

God told us how He wants to be worshiped. Changing what He said to fit what you "feel" is right is not obeying Him.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Because God told us which day to keep as His Sabbath. Anything else is a perversion. It's like the Holy Temple Priests that told Ezekiel (who God sent to tell them to repent) to "Go away, Ezekiel, we will worship God OUR way"

God told us how He wants to be worshiped. Changing what He said to fit what you "feel" is right is not obeying Him.
Hello. I am not here to debate the day of the Sabbath, and I find your remark rather ad-hominem.

And with that I now unsubscribe from this thread. Shalom and God bless :wave: :groupray:

False prophets in Daniel in the Bible. Revived Roman Empire, Beast of the Apocalypse of Mark, and Antiochus the Selucid Greek
Apocalyptic fervor in the early church
The Revived Roman Empire,
the Beast of the Apocalypse of Mark,
and Antiochus the Selucid Greek

JPS1917 OT) Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High;
and he shall think to change the seasons and the law; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and half a time.

JPS1917 OT) Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he lifted up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and swore by Him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and when they have made an end of breaking in pieces the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Revelation 10:5 And the Messenger whom I saw standing upon the sea, and upon the land, lifts the hand of him, the right, into the heaven,
6 and swears in the One-living who lives into the ages of the ages, who creates the heaven and the in it, and the land and the in it, and the sea and the in her--that time not still shall be, [Daniel 12:7]
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by INTJ-F
Because God told us which day to keep as His Sabbath. Anything else is a perversion. It's like the Holy Temple Priests that told Ezekiel (who God sent to tell them to repent) to "Go away, Ezekiel, we will worship God OUR way"
God told us how He wants to be worshiped. Changing what He said to fit what you "feel" is right is not obeying Him.
LLoJ
You are well aware of what and why MJs do what we do. I saw no attacks agaiinst you in INTJ-Fs reply.
Sorry about that, but the poster also used the word "perversion", which would imply I am also a "pervert" :D :p

KJV) Luke 9:41 And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither.

KJV) Philippians 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

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Gxg (G²)

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Are you saying the Lord does not know what is going to happen in advance so He has to adapt to whatever comes up???
.
Never said that. What I was speaking of specifically was the reality is that God is complex---and while there are many things which the Lord ordained to come to pass without the actions of man influencing Him, there are other things which he has truly left open-ended/not determined...choosing to be in relationship with his creation and respond to what they do.


Jonah prophesied that in 40 days that Nineveh would be destroyed. But Nineveh repented and God relented. Isaiah prophesied to Hezekiah to get his house in order because he was going to die. Hezekiah prayed to the Lord and wept. The Lord heard him, and Isaiah came right back in with another word that he would live and go up to the house of the Lord. Hezekiah asked for a sign that the second word was true, and God granted it, moving the shadow of the steps in the 'wrong' direction.

There are a host of theological issues that the conditional nature of prophecy brings to mind. One of them is that is argues strongly against theistic determinism. It argues against the idea that God has already planned every detail out and that the future is already created. I know some people who think that 'God exists outside of time' in eternity. I can't find that kind of thinking in the Bible, that eternity is some sort of plane outside of time. It seems to me to be a case of either God pretending to change His mind, having the authors of scripture write that God 'repented' when He really didn't, or else God really does change His mind at times. The most obvious explanation to me is that the future has not been created yet.

Certain things are predestined. There are people who are foreknown and predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. The book of Jude indicates that certain people were foreordained to destruction from long ago. But I can't see from scripture where God has set every detail of history in stone. And I think a lot of theology that tries to make God into someone putting all these stories in the Bible to anthropromorphize(sp) Himself is grasping at straws to justifyin a Neo-Platonic view of God. I've even read someone try to argue that God does not have emotions based on the idea that the etymology of the word has to do with 'changing'-- as if that had anything to do with it. God gets angry in the Bible, rejoices, and exhibits other 'emotions.' Let's just believe what the Bible says about the nature of God, instead of assuming some philosophical concept is true and try to explain away scripture that doesn't fit our model.

I know some people may see this as open theism. What I am suggesting is similar to Open Theism in some ways, but Open Theism goes way off into the idea of God learning, being refined by creation, and I can't justify that. I'm saying let us look at how God is revealed in scripture and believe that, instead of trying to make scripture fit some Platonic mold.

When you're in possession of infinite knowledge, you also have the capicity to be aware of infinite possibilities. When you have infinite knowledge, I'm sure it just something you know..and in that sense, I see many examples in scripture showing where the Lord intended for one thing to occur and yet got another/adapted in kind to it. Its very strategic. When I play Chess, I make a move, and I know you have a finite number of possible moves. It is just something I know.



Sorry, but if He gives us prophecy about what will happen in the future and He gave Israel the exact day Messiah Yeshua would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey (and all the other prophecy) then I seriously doubt He has to adapt to anything.

He knows the beginning from the end and nothing surprises Him so He does not have to adapt to anything
That, again, is a demonstration of how there are many events that the Lord ordained to come to pass. However, I don't see scripturally where it's the case that every single event the Lord has shown awareness of. Jesus was certainly amazed at the faith of the centurion in Luke 8 and Matthew 8. Moreover, there were many instances within the Word where the Lord noted that what people chose was never what He desired or had in mind to begin with. ..be it with the Flood of Man or the Exodus 32/Numbers 14 account where the Lord changed His mind about certain paths he had planned to take his people down on. This goes into things such as the Declarative WIll of God and His permissive Will, where he will allow things to occur/honor the actions of men---seeking to tie it into His plans.

Some of this also goes into the subject of addressing if the world is the way it is because of what man has done or because it of how the Lord DESIRED it to be such (as they do in many circles for Determinism or Hyper-Calvinism....even saying that the Fall of Man was planned by God)? Does prophecy/judgement happen in response to what man does or in anticipation of what man was destined to do regardless?

Alongside that comes the issue of asking, "DP our prayers make any difference or are all of the outcomes predetermined by God regardless of our requests?"

As I read through the scriptures I have to argue for the former. I believe God’s mind can be changed on a particular situation and that the outcome is not predetermined to the point where regardless of what I ask God has set the course in “eternity past”...or to the point where the Lord is not either GRIEVED or Sorrowful..
Amos 7:3
So the LORD relented. "This will not happen," the LORD said.
Amos 7:2-4 (in Context) Amos 7
2 Samuel 24:15-17 (in Context) 2 Samuel 24
So the LORD sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the LORD was grieved because of the calamity and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, "Enough! Withdraw your hand." The angel of the LORD was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite



Reading through James he says in Chapter 5 “the prayer of a righteous man has much power”! Power to do what? Power to submit to the predetermined plan of God? Or power to effect change in the circumstances of others? I think the latter in these two rhetorical questions.

I recall many times in both the Old and New Testament, God willing or saying one thing but then changing His mind due to a human response. Rather that is prayer, sin, a righteous act or faith. I think the predetermined view robs prayer of its power and does a disservice to quite a few narratives God has revealed through His word. For example, the stories of Hezekiah, Moses interceding twice for Israel, the Flood, numerous times in the Gospels where someone’s faith got them or someone else healed. A few times in Acts and so on.




And for some other scriptures which come to mind....
Genesis 6
The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them."
I Samuel 15:10-11

10 Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel: 11 ‘I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.’29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind.’ 1 Samuel 13:12-14

12 I thought, 'Now the Philistines will come down against me at Gilgal, and I have not sought the LORD's favor.' So I felt compelled to offer the burnt offering."

13 "You acted foolishly," Samuel said. "You have not kept the command the LORD your God gave you; if you had, he would have established your kingdom over Israel for all time. 14 But now your kingdom will not endure; the LORD has sought out a man after his own heart and appointed him leader of his people, because you have not kept the LORD's command."


II Kings 22
18 Tell the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the LORD, 'This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says concerning the words you heard: 19 Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before the LORD when you heard what I have spoken against this place and its people, that they would become accursed and laid waste, and because you tore your robes and wept in my presence, I have heard you, declares the LORD. 20 Therefore I will gather you to your fathers, and you will be buried in peace. Your eyes will not see all the disaster I am going to bring on this place.' " So they took her answer back to the king.
23 Yet they did not listen or pay attention; they were stiff-necked and would not listen or respond to discipline. 24 But if you are careful to obey me, declares the LORD, and bring no load through the gates of this city on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy by not doing any work on it, 25 then kings who sit on David's throne will come through the gates of this city with their officials. They and their officials will come riding in chariots and on horses, accompanied by the men of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, and this city will be inhabited forever23 Yet they did not listen or pay attention; they were stiff-necked and would not listen or respond to discipline. 24 But if you are careful to obey me, declares the LORD, and bring no load through the gates of this city on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy by not doing any work on it, 25 then kings who sit on David's throne will come through the gates of this city with their officials. They and their officials will come riding in chariots and on horses, accompanied by the men of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, and this city will be inhabited forever

Jeremiah 17:23-25 Jeremiah 17
Ezekiel 20:21
" 'But the children rebelled against me: They did not follow my decrees, they were not careful to keep my laws—although the man who obeys them will live by them—and they desecrated my Sabbaths. So I said I would pour out my wrath on them and spend my anger against them in the desert.
Ezekiel 20:20-22 __________________
__________________






But some of this, again, I've sought to discuss more in-depth elsewhere...and for more, one can go here to #362. There's also an excellent book on the subject that really blessed me, entitled The God Who Risks .

9780830828371.jpg


Greg Boyd has also shared many interesting thoughts on the issue as well, as seen here
'
 
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Gxg (G²)

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When I have money, I fly airplanes, ride and show horses, take numerous day trips, enjoy photography, hiking, travel, attend concerts and plays, baseball games, etc. Of course now I keep Shabbat and many events are scheduled for saturday only, that leaves me out f participating in some events.
Cool to know that you seek to live life to the fullest. I try to travel as often as I can, do music/singing and dancing...as well as enjoying nature/simply taking time to hang out with the fam and friends whenever I can. Thank the Lord for Shabbat
 
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INTJ-F

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Some of this also goes into the subject of addressing if the world is the way it is because of what man has done or because it of how the Lord DESIRED it to be such (as they do in many circles for Determinism or Hyper-Calvinism....even saying that the Fall of Man was planned by God)? Does prophecy/judgement happen in response to what man does or in anticipation of what man was destined to do regardless?

There is a difference with what God desired and what He knew what would happen.

Sometimes I'm amazed when something happens even though I know it would. Messiah Yeshua may have temporarily voluntarily given up His foreknowledge to what would happen when He was on earth.

I've done some things I knew would fail in order to observe (and to learn) Maybe God had reasons for designing the earth and man even though He knew man would fall. This is something I doubt we can know for sure until we reach eternity and gain understanding. It's interesting to discuss different viewpoints on it though.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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There is a difference with what God desired and what He knew what would happen.
Indeed, though the real issue is showing that God knows all things that WOULD happen even when/if he desires something.....and whether or not its impossible for the Lord to experience both.


Sometimes I'm amazed when something happens even though I know it would. Messiah Yeshua may have temporarily voluntarily given up His foreknowledge to what would happen when He was on earth.
That's amazing to consider as well...


For some good articles on the issue, one can go to his site and look up the following articles:

The issue that may wrestle with is whether or not its possible that the Lord ordained for Himself to go through pain...willing his own displeasure/being willing to endure it for the sake of illustrating to others who He is.


I've done some things I knew would fail in order to observe (and to learn) Maybe God had reasons for designing the earth and man even though He knew man would fall. This is something I doubt we can know for sure until we reach eternity and gain understanding. It's interesting to discuss different viewpoints on it though.
It really does make for interesting discussion...though it also does serve to make one ponder how things all began to come together.



"Did God Plan The Fall of Man?" or "Was the Fall Necessary for Man to See God truly as He was?....and on that, I have issue. For one must wonder that even in Paradise, man was with perfect communion with the Lord and yet to a degree, He may've been unable to see the Lord as He was fully when it comes to love since the ultimate expression of love is seen in being able to give up one's life for another, John 15:12-14/John 15, 1 John 3:15-17 / 1 John 3.

Again, that's a very complex issue---especially seeing that on the flip side, God made clear in many places that He did not desire sin/suffering to occur originally, hence, why man was given a choice IN THE garden/warning from the Lord (which was genuine and that man was not bound to do so/could've chosen differently) and is continually given one daily to make since one doesn't HAVE to sin in order to understand grace. With the garden, one must also wonder in light of the "Middle Knowledge" perspective if it was planned by the Lord to give Adam free-will and yet somehow setting up circumstances whereby Adams choice would naturally go toward rebellion---as in what occured when the Accuser was kicked out of Heaven and allowed to come to the Earth to tempt Adam through His wife.

To a degree, it does seem like a Divine Soap Opera and much of Human History going according to a script. And as Christ was prepared before the foundation of the World to die, one can either see things playing out in the sense of the "Christus Victor" view where God literally had to rescue us from the Dominion of Darknes or in the sense of the Lord really playing us like on a Divine Chess Board or puppets in a "play"...

To a significant degree, I'm reminded of “The Matrix” Trilogy..paticularly, the second one known as "The Matrix Reloaded" ()where Neo discovers that the entire issue of "The One" prophecy and his choosing to leave the Matrix to wage war on the Machines was in no way really true freedom--as it was all set up as a system of control, with the Oracle playing off of intuition/knowledge of free-will choices and influences others toward certain action.


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But from a Christian perspective, as God (whether directly or indirectly) causes no man to sin (James 1) andGod is not the author of our sin, man is the first cause of his own actions.

One cannot deny that Adam’s choice to sin was within the sovereign plan of God---where it was allowed and the Lord was more than prepared for it, even though the effects of it grieved Him significantly, as seen in Gen 6:6 where the Lord was greatly saddened at the turn-out of man. But I will not agree when others say that Adam sinned because God ordained him to sin...as in essence, that's akin to saying that if a man rapes a child/sins just like Adam, man is not the FIRST cause of his actions or choices. IMHO, God is the First cause of ALL, and God created man (in His own image a moral agent), consequently meaning that man is the first cause of his own actions and choices. But it is still something I'm wrestling with/over...

Something that one of my brothers in Christ said on the issue when it came to addressing the issues of Arminism and Calvinism in regards to how could God both plan an event and yet allow free will to men or change His mind if He does know all things:
There are two perspectives involved, that of God's eternal plan which is unfailingly carried out, and that of temporal events. Thus, God's relation to any event (or moment) is two-fold. For example, God hates all sin. One aspect of God's relation to any sin is that it is against His will and incurs His wrath. But the other aspect of God's relation to that sin is that it is part of God's eternal plan, having been incorporated at the beginning for God's ultimate glory. Sinful acts were necessary in the crucifixion of Christ, and yet it was accomplished by God as part of His plan. So I would say that God does change His mind within time, but always in accordance with the eternal plan that He formed before time began.


All of that I thought was highly intriguing. On the issue he brought up with changing His mind in accordance with what's akin to His "Master Blueprint" which was already laid out, I couldn't help but be reminded of the passage itself in Numbers where the Lord made clear He would do otherwise if his people acted one way and then chose to do opposite when they went against Him did not seem to be dealt with. It'd seem to be avoiding the text if saying "God chose to respond to the Israelites exactly as He always planned" when it seems clear from other texts that He also made clear certain outcomes could be avoided/that He would do differently.


It's the entire issue of having infinite knowledge of multiple possibilities/knowing how you'll respond in each and every scenario rather than saying that one will respond only a certain way. God changed His mind, knowing full well how he would react to certain actions, acting consistent with His nature...just like with Moses in Exodus 32/Exodus 32:1 when He intercedded with the Lord. God relented, yet it did not mean that God changed His mnd in the sense that a parent decides not to discipline a child. Instead, He changed His behavior to remain consistent with His nature.

Whe God first wanted to destroy the people, He was acting in accordance with His justice. But when Moses interceded for the people, God relented in order to act consistently with His Mercy. God had often told the people that if they changed their ways, he would not condemn them. And many times, they changed, thus activating the other possibility of what He had planned beforehand on how He'd choose to respond based on what He had laid down before time. That's part of the issue of promises, blessings and curses.

As it seems, what the issue also comes down to is whether or not all things in the future are PRE-Determined by the Lord or whether or not there're other things open for possibility...and that'll always be at the "crux of the matter" whenever discussing Open Theism and its implications.

.
On the issue of "temporal perspective", I came across an article that sought to refine many of the points people may bring up in Open Theism...and one of them dealt with the concept of the Lord "learning" in regards to scripture where God said "Now I know.." after testing someone, much as it was with Hezekiah when He tested Him to know all that was in His Heart in 2 Chronicles 32:30-32 /2 Chronicles 32or other passages where it makes clear the Lord was waiting to see what His people would do.

As an excerpt from one article said (on Greg Boyd's stance) dealing with the example of the Testing of Abraham in Hebrews 11:16-18 /Hebrews 11:
The Testing of Abraham's Fear of God
Genesis 22:9-12
Then they came to the place of which God had told him; and Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood, and bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." 12 He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."

Observations:

1. Boyd says that God did not know if Abraham would remain faithful and that the words "now I know" are disingenuous if this were not so. The test would be a charade if God already knew the outcome.

2. There is another way to think about God's knowing here. If God knows what will come to pass, does that mean that all testings in history are pointless? we don't think so. God has not created the world simply so that it might have been foreknown. He created the world to be actualized in history. That is, he wills not just to foreknow, but also to know by observation and experience. That is the point of creating a real world, rather than just knowing one that might be. Therefore, may not God truly know what Abraham is going to do, and yet also want to externalize that reality in a test that enables him to know it by observation, not just prognostication? "Now I know," thus may mean, "Now I see . . . now I experience by observation of your real action."


Seeing that really made me reconsider many things----as it made perfect sense, especially when the reality is that one's dealing with a God BEYOND our comprehension who is more than able to do that which may seem like paradoxes to us, in that it is more than possible for God to live in the realm of eternity/knowing all things and yet simultaneously choose to experience "temporal" time and limited knowledge as we do in differing situations. Trying to make sense of that would be no more logical than trying to say "How can God be everywhere and yet in a single place all at once?"


Personally, I have no problem believing God works with the leaders of the world to bring about certain things. He can use those people to bring judgments on others...and has shown repeatedly in the Word where that's the case. But where I have a problem is the idea that God actively controls every single detail in every single person, every single day

There is a specific view that seemed to make the most sense to me (to a degree) with reconcilling issues. The view advocates that God foreknows not only what will come to pass but also what would have come to pass under any and all circumstances in any and all possible worlds....and in regards to the view, it seems logical that can embrace both God's sovereignty and man's free choice. Though even with the view, there're variations. In example, Gregory Boyd discussed it best when describing something on his site under the article title of Neo-Molinism and the Infinite Intelligence of God ( )--in which the argument came up describing how "classical Molinism overlooked a whole left category of truths that an omniscient God would know: namely, the category of truths about what free agents might and might not do"
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Messiah Yeshua may have temporarily voluntarily given up His foreknowledge to what would happen when He was on earth.

I've done some things I knew would fail in order to observe (and to learn) Maybe God had reasons for designing the earth and man even though He knew man would fall. This is something I doubt we can know for sure until we reach eternity and gain understanding. It's interesting to discuss different viewpoints on it though.
Some of what you bring up does seem to make one reconsider Christ and the Ressurection. I rememeber someone saying that I John 4-5 discusses how God is love and love was demonstrated in sending His Son to die since no greater love has any man than him laying down his life....and perhaps God knew that men in the Garden would never know the depths of God's Love unless they had fallen/been given the chance to See the Lord truly sacrifice for them.



The other perspective is that the phrase "Christ was slain before the foundation of the world" was that the Lord already knew what would happen and had it covered.....knowing that if man messed up, Christ was already prepared to die for the world---and the Lord could thus prophesy immediately in Genesis 3 about the Seed of the woman coming to crush the Serpent's head. As the Lord could go to the future/immediately see the final result, he was prepared.


The death of Christ being pre-planned is heavy to consider, seeing that sinful acts were necessary for Christ to die (i.e. "betrayal", "accusation", "trial", "beatings", etc) and were apart of God's plan...yet God still made clear that even with it being apart of His Sovereign plan the people chose freely/were responsible.

That's something worth pausing on, IMHO. One must naturally ask the question of whether or not the Resurrection/The Death of Christ involved men choosing out of their own free-will to help make it happen WITHOUT THE LORD KNOWING the outcome of it all or whether it was the Lord divinely setting it up to where men's hearts were influenced toward a certain course of action in crucifying the Messiah, begging the question of if those men doing so were ever fully in control or aware......
Acts 4:11
You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
" 'Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the Lord
and against his Anointed One.[a]'[b] 27Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people[c] of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
Acts 2:23 Acts 2:4
22"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him
John 11:49-51 / John 11
Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, "You know nothing at all! 50You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish."
51He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one. 53So from that day on they plotted to take his life
Christ was not a victim of circumstances.....and his death wasn't the result of circumstances, caprice, chance, fortune or luck. It was all a matter of the Lord being in control. From here, however, thoughts naturally come up of whether or not people like Judas chose to betray Christ or whether it was already set up for him to take the fall. And the same with those who chose to murder the SOn of God. On the aspect of man's will being affected for the purposes of the Cross, it'd make perfect sense as to why the Son of Man had such an ability to forgive them even when they were sinning against him--for to a significant degree, they REally didn't know what they were doing....and had they knew the full ramifications of it, they'd probably would've stopped--just as it is with nearly all sinful activities where people willfully choose sin and yet are not really aware of the full ramifications of it when in the process of committining.
Luke 23:34
Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.
Luke 23:33-35 (in Context) Luke 23 (
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Gxg (G²)

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I've done some things I knew would fail in order to observe (and to learn) Maybe God had reasons for designing the earth and man even though He knew man would fall. This is something I doubt we can know for sure until we reach eternity and gain understanding. It's interesting to discuss different viewpoints on it though.
It'll be interesting to see what occurs when believers get to Heaven and are able to ask the Lord why it was that man went through what He did. I believe he does seem to give us hints throughout his Word, with the most obvious being that man chose to rebel and needed a savior---who redeemed us through Christ. This goes with what's known as the “Christus Victor” View of the Atonement

Curious as to what you may've felt at times where his reasons for designing the Earth knowing man would fall. Sometimes, what I've often heard from others (on misconceptions about Messianics/believers of Jesus) is that people just accept whatever happens and never seem to ask any questions of God....
 
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Curious as to what you may've felt at times where his reasons for designing the Earth knowing man would fall. Sometimes, what I've often heard from others (on misconceptions about Messianics/believers of Jesus) is that people just accept whatever happens and never seem to ask any questions of God....

As a INTJ, I ALWAYS ask questions of God. Some of the concepts I think of I never reveal to anyone because they could easily become false doctrines.

Yeshua did have some knowledge - He foretold of His death - only His disciples didn't hear what He said.

It will be interesting to see why we went through some of the stuff we did. I suspect some of those we trusted and were betrayed by will be revealed to have been nephillim and we will see them for what they really were - obstacles, roadblocks, and stumbling stones for our faith. There will be eyes opened more than we know at present.
 
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ContraMundum

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Are there common misconceptions about your faith that you hear from people?

Regarding Judaism, two that I have heard:

-food is kosher because a rabbi blesses it
-Chanukah is when Jews celebrate the birth of Jesus :)doh:)

Misconceptions about my faith:

- We don't live according to the moral law, and just do whatever we want.

- You have to throw away all of your Jewish heritage to be Christian,

- You don't keep or respect Jewish heritage unless you belong to a Messianic congregation. That is the only way.

- There is no sign of the OT in Christianity, it has only pagan roots.

All woefully wrong.
 
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ContraMundum

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Does it have a split hoof? Does it ruminate? If your answer is no to either of these questions, it's not kosher. That's the rule for land animals. Easy enough? :)

How can you really tell if an animal is ruminating? The look on its face? Resting its chin on its hoof until it has a "eureka!" moment?

:D:cool:
 
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