Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?

[Brak]

Watch out for those dogs, those evildoers, those mutilators of the flesh. For it is we who are the circumcision, not them. We who boast in Christ Jesus.

 

[BloodyRachel]

Maybe or maybe not, but it is correct. This is CHRISTIANforums, not jewishforums.

Did you really just say that? If it's anti-Semitic, it can't be correct. All Christians should be able to agree on that.

 

[BloodyRachel]

and what a life when christians reunite with its roots of faith through Yeshua, King of the Jews.

I always root for the STUMP!

 

[Brak]

Well I can say it again if you need any further clarification:

Maybe or maybe not, but it is correct. This is CHRISTIANforums, not jewishforums.

And no, most Christians should NOT agree that being anti-Jewish is wrong. We are not Jews--we are Christians. And naturally that means being anti- any religion that denies Christ and leads to Hell. I realize that you want a get-out-of-jail-free card just for Jews, but it's not going to happen. Not on Judgment Day, not here.

 

[visionary]

We let God work out the detail.. after all the first may be last, but the last will be first... and we know the Jews are the first... but when it comes to the Messiah, they may well be last.. but then they have blinders on.. until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled.

 

[Dutch42]

Yes but Paul didn't teach Gentiles or Jews to give animal sacrifice. Im not familiar with every law but i do understand sacrifice to be a sin offering and Jesus fulfilled the sin offering by becoming the sin offering. Paul didn't teach Circumcision because it dates back to Abraham and is a sign of the old Covenant. But Paul did teach us to obey law from the 10 Cs. Not that the 10 Cs are special, but because they agree with what Jesus and Paul teach.

I understand what you said: And some is difficult to understand, like Ezek 40-48.. where we can read the animal sacrifice is coming back.

But the 10 commands means to holy the Sabbath.. And that is actually the only command what isn't teach in the NT by words.

But, by the death of Jesus, the animal sacrifice didn't stop. I want to say actually stronger... it is never written that it had to stop..

This is maybe an interesting part: Act 21:17-26
In this part we can read that the apostle Paul came back to Jerusalem. And there he met the apostle Jacobus. And he said: Paul,... see, thousends of Jews came to Jesus.. All are workers of the Torah. But they are afraid that you teach falling of the Torah of Moses. Like it isn't necessary that a Jew had to circumcise him self. And that they don't have to walk like the Torah teach.

So, what you have to do is the nazarite vow.. We got 4 people who are doing this.. and you have to pay the sacrifice for them...

The gentils is good, we agree that they don't have to walk like the Torah said...

And the apostle Paul agree with it.. (for the nazarite vow you can read Lev 6:2-21)

This had to be the talking between the both apostles.. And what we see, is that the apostle Paul, even an animal sacrifice for the Lord. And what we see is that there is a differency between a believer by Jew by birth, and a believer by gentils. .

 

[from scratch]

the problem of matt 19:16-19 for some is that they are too willing to look at the scripture in "tunnel vision".

If tunnel vision is the problem why are the 10 Cs being pushed with this reference when Jesus leaves some out and quotes another part of the law. I think it shows that Jesus isn't promoting the 10 Cs or even the law. I think that Jesus is answering the man's question without condemning him. So is Jesus' intent to show that the law can or can't secure eternal life. After all the man testified that he kept the law yet left knowing that he didn't have eternal life and must have been condemned because even his attitude is mentioned.

the fact that Jesus doesn't mention the sabbath, means we don't have to keep it is ridiculous.

Why is this? If one keeps any of the law aren't they obligated to the whole law as both James a Paul indicate?

if one would take time to really look at the exchange, maybe one would began to understand the verse in it's context.

first of all, Jesus is answering a question about salvation - eternal life.

that is a fact that can't be disputed!

I fully agree! What is the question being asked? Doesn't it include the young man's personal actions? He did ask what good thing shall I do- didn't he? What does Eph 2:8-9 say? - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Is there a boast in his testimony? Yes! Especially considering the good thing that I do part of the quesion. Eternal life can't be earned, it is a gift - Rom 6:23.

here's the question from the young man:

Matthew 19:16(NKJV)
16Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

the man wanted to know what he must do to have eternal life.

Jesus answered the man's question. the answer Jesus gave was particular to who was asking.

obviously, the man had problems with his fellow man, and his riches was the big obstacle for him.

the rich man's problem was learning to love his neighbor as himself!

that's why Jesus named the commandments that He did and included "love thy neighbor as thyself" for emphasis!

The commandment love thy neighbor as thyself isn't part of the law that is valid - remember it was nailed to the cross as it isn't one of the 10 Cs.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

All unrighteousness is sin, and the law was not made for the righteous, but for the unrighteous. The wage of sin is death, so all those who live in sin are dead to God. Just as it is written those who are born of God do not commit sin. And it is also written all those who do not righteousness is not of God.

By the law all men have become guilty before God, for all sin is the transgression of the law. In this manner no man can be justified by the works of the law, because he who broke one part of the law, has become guilty of the whole law. That is why we need the Grace of God through Jesus Christ. But grace is not the freedom to commit sin, but it is the ( freedom from sin.) For those whom the Son has set free, are free indeed.

Those who are still living in the flesh, are still under the bondage of the law of sin, and by sin death. That is why we must be born again of God's Holy Spirit to be freed from this carnal mind that lusts after the flesh. Just as Gods children are not flesh and blood, but spiritual Jews. It is written he is not a Jew who is one outward in appearance, but inward; and that circumcision is not of the flesh, but of the heart and the mind.

And just as Gods children are spiritual, so is the law spiritually discerned. Just as Paul said the law was a shadow of things to come, but not the very image of those things. Meaning many of the natural ordinances given to Israel were to be (a sign of better things to come.) Just as the Lord told the children of Israel in the day he gave them the Law through Moses; " it shall be( a sign) between me and you."

Jesus said judge not based upon appearances, but if you judge, judge the righteous judgment. And the only way to do this is through the mind of the Lord; which comes when a man is born again of the Spirit of God. When this happens we are established in the law, that is to say, it is Gods righteousness working in us to fullfill the spiritual law of righteousness.

Jesus said; I came not to abolish the law and prophets, but to fullfill, meaning the natural ordinances of the law shall be transformed in the spiritual sense, and will be fullfilled in prophecy. Keep in mind, the Lord first shows things in the natural, to be a reflection on the true spiritual meaning. Just as the true children of God are not flesh and blood, but rather spiritual Jews. For Jesus said; salvation is of the Jews. Peace

 

[11822]

Doesn't it seem anti-Semitic to you to say that Judaism is a religion of works-righteousness? Oh, you haven't said it in so many words. But you think Judaism is characterized by it. This reminds me that Martin Luther believed Judaism was characterized by lying. He wrote a little pamphlet titled On the Jews and Their Lies. Martin Luther believed that Judaism was a religion of liars, even if he didn't say those words in that exact order, without addition or subtraction. That seems pretty anti-Semitic.[/Q



Moses was a good man.

 

[sheina]

All unrighteousness is sin, and the law was not made for the righteous, but for the unrighteous. The wage of sin is death, so all those who live in sin are dead to God. Just as it is written those who are born of God do not commit sin. And it is also written all those who do not righteousness is not of God.

By the law all men have become guilty before God, for all sin is the transgression of the law. In this manner no man can be justified by the works of the law, because he who broke one part of the law, has become guilty of the whole law. That is why we need the Grace of God through Jesus Christ. But grace is not the freedom to commit sin, but it is the ( freedom from sin.) For those whom the Son has set free, are free indeed.

Those who are still living in the flesh, are still under the bondage of the law of sin, and by sin death. That is why we must be born again of God's Holy Spirit to be freed from this carnal mind that lusts after the flesh. Just as Gods children are not flesh and blood, but spiritual Jews. It is written he is not a Jew who is one outward in appearance, but inward; and that circumcision is not of the flesh, but of the heart and the mind.

And just as Gods children are spiritual, so is the law spiritually discerned. Just as Paul said the law was a shadow of things to come, but not the very image of those things. Meaning many of the natural ordinances given to Israel were to be (a sign of better things to come.) Just as the Lord told the children of Israel in the day he gave them the Law through Moses; " it shall be( a sign) between me and you."

Jesus said judge not based upon appearances, but if you judge, judge the righteous judgment. And the only way to do this is through the mind of the Lord; which comes when a man is born again of the Spirit of God. When this happens we are established in the law, that is to say, it is Gods righteousness working in us to fullfill the spiritual law of righteousness.

Jesus said; I came not to abolish the law and prophets, but to fullfill, meaning the natural ordinances of the law shall be transformed in the spiritual sense, and will be fullfilled in prophecy. Keep in mind, the Lord first shows things in the natural, to be a reflection on the true spiritual meaning. Just as the true children of God are not flesh and blood, but rather spiritual Jews. For Jesus said; salvation is of the Jews. Peace

Good post....however, I disagree with you about "spiritual Jews". There is no such a thing as a "spiritual Jew". Romans 2:28-29 is speaking of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...not Gentiles. Basically, what it says is that a Jew (physical descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) is just as guilty before a Holy God as a Gentile...however, a Jew who truly believes in God is the one who is clothed in the righteousness of Christ. IOW, those Jews are born again. Gentiles don't become "spiritual Jews" when they trust Christ for salvation. You won't find that term in Scripture.

 

[11822]

I understand what you said: And some is difficult to understand, like Ezek 40-48.. where we can read the animal sacrifice is coming back.

But the 10 commands means to holy the Sabbath.. And that is actually the only command what isn't teach in the NT by words.

But, by the death of Jesus, the animal sacrifice didn't stop. I want to say actually stronger... it is never written that it had to stop..

This is maybe an interesting part: Act 21:17-26
In this part we can read that the apostle Paul came back to Jerusalem. And there he met the apostle Jacobus. And he said: Paul,... see, thousends of Jews came to Jesus.. All are workers of the Torah. But they are afraid that you teach falling of the Torah of Moses. Like it isn't necessary that a Jew had to circumcise him self. And that they don't have to walk like the Torah teach.

So, what you have to do is the nazarite vow.. We got 4 people who are doing this.. and you have to pay the sacrifice for them...

The gentils is good, we agree that they don't have to walk like the Torah said...

And the apostle Paul agree with it.. (for the nazarite vow you can read Lev 6:2-21)

This had to be the talking between the both apostles.. And what we see, is that the apostle Paul, even an animal sacrifice for the Lord. And what we see is that there is a differency between a believer by Jew by birth, and a believer by gentils. .

I notice you said the sabbath is the only commandment of the 10cs to not be taught in the N.T. Would you agree then that Paul and Jesus teach 9 of the 10 commandments to Gentile Christians?

 

[11822]

If tunnel vision is the problem why are the 10 Cs being pushed with this reference when Jesus leaves some out and quotes another part of the law. I think it shows that Jesus isn't promoting the 10 Cs or even the law. I think that Jesus is answering the man's question without condemning him. So is Jesus' intent to show that the law can or can't secure eternal life. After all the man testified that he kept the law yet left knowing that he didn't have eternal life and must have been condemned because even his attitude is mentioned.Why is this? If one keeps any of the law aren't they obligated to the whole law as both James a Paul indicate?I fully agree! What is the question being asked? Doesn't it include the young man's personal actions? He did ask what good thing shall I do- didn't he? What does Eph 2:8-9 say? - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Is there a boast in his testimony? Yes! Especially considering the good thing that I do part of the quesion. Eternal life can't be earned, it is a gift - Rom 6:23. The commandment love thy neighbor as thyself isn't part of the law that is valid - remember it was nailed to the cross as it isn't one of the 10 Cs.

Only those Justified by the law must keep it all. Those of us Justified by faith follow the teaching of Christ and it includes commandments. Love thy neighbor is not all Jesus taught us.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

It is written the children which are of faith, these are the children of Abraham. Jesus said; I judge no man after the flesh. And he also said, flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of heaven. The Lord was showing in the natural children of Israel what he was going to do on a much bigger spiritual level. The Lord told the children of Israel that there shall be one law between you, and those who sojourn among you. Just as those strangers who were ( purchased for a price) would also be circumcised. This price was paid in the blood of Jesus.

When Christ was crucified he tore down that middle wall of partion that separated Jews from Gentiles, thereby taking the veil of the flesh that divided the 2, and making them into One by way of the Holy Spirit of God. This perfect unity has not yet been realized for those of the flesh, but will soon when the veil of the flesh is taken away, then the true spiritual meaning of this marriage made in heaven will take place.

This spiritual sign was symbolized in the natural union of marriage, first came man, then out of man came woman; and in the unity of the Holy Spirit they shall be made One flesh. Just as in the day God created man and woman, he called them both Adam. Even though there was 2, they were called by one name. Even so soon, we as spiritual children shall be gathered together into One Body, which is Jesus Christ. Peace.

 

[Pythons]

I put this one together using reftagger. I copied it from Wiki but added the function of reftagger. Hover your mouse over each verse citation to read it without clicking it. Very educational and should be wonderful for those who wish to wallow in the Law...

613 Laws of the Old Testament

The temple isn't standing any longer so Christians couldn't "keep" the commandments associated with that part of it...
...Other groups like to pick and choose which commandments they keep.

 

[from scratch]

I notice you said the sabbath is the only commandment of the 10cs to not be taught in the N.T. Would you agree then that Paul and Jesus teach 9 of the 10 commandments to Gentile Christians?

Nope!

 

[from scratch]

Ive posted it numerous times already. And i never said the 10 commandments, i said some of the 10 commandments. Paul and Jesus both teach the last 6 commandments.

mentioning and teach ing obligation are 2 different things. And no paul didn't teach keeping the 10 Cs save one and it was to children and not Christians in Eph 6:1.

 

[ivebeenshown]

In response to the thread title:

I believe that the Church was given binding and loosing authority, so I will adhere to its binding decisions -- therefore I do not agree.

 

[SummaScriptura]

In response to the thread title:

I believe that the Church was given binding and loosing authority, so I will adhere to its binding decisions -- therefore I do not agree.

Wow! We agree!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The temple isn't standing any longer so Christians couldn't "keep" the commandments associated with that part of it...
...Other groups like to pick and choose which commandments they keep.

Yeah.....that is a real bummer for the OC Jews

Matt 24:2 The yet Jesus saying to them, "not ye see all these?
Amen I am saying to ye, not no be being left here stone upon stone, which not shall be being thrown down"
[Mark 21:5/Reve 14:8]

Luke 21:5 And certain saying about the Temple that to stones ideal and devoted-things it hath been adorned He said.......

Reve 14:8 And another Messenger, second-one follows saying "She falls, She falls, Babylon the Great,
the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations".

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

..............The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover.............
.......The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins............

 

[BloodyRachel]

Yeah.....that is a real bummer for the OC Jews

Matt 24:2 The yet Jesus saying to them, "not ye see all these?
Amen I am saying to ye, not no be being left here stone upon stone, which not shall be being thrown down"
[Mark 21:5/Reve 14:8]

Luke 21:5 And certain saying about the Temple that to stones ideal and devoted-things it hath been adorned He said.......

Reve 14:8 And another Messenger, second-one follows saying "She falls, She falls, Babylon the Great,
the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations".

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

..............The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover.............
.......The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins............

They will have the last laugh when the Temple is rebuilt.