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Do you agree that Christians should obey all 613 commandments?

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spiritwarrior37

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As Jesus stated in Mat. 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy , but to fulfil .
When something is fulfilled, it means it is completed. There is nothing left to do. On the cross Jesus said, " IT IS FINISHED." We are no longer obligated to be under the Law, nor should we as Christians try to be. If you are trying to live by the Law, then you make Grace of no avail. Jesus died for nothing. We are under a new and better covenant.

God bless
 
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11822

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As Jesus stated in Mat. 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy , but to fulfil .
When something is fulfilled, it means it is completed. There is nothing left to do. On the cross Jesus said, " IT IS FINISHED." We are no longer obligated to be under the Law, nor should we as Christians try to be. If you are trying to live by the Law, then you make Grace of no avail. Jesus died for nothing. We are under a new and better covenant.

God bless


Jesus Fulfilled the law of sacrifice by being the sacrifice. He fulfilled the law of 10 Cs by obeying it. He says not one little part shall pass from the law until all be fulfilled. All prophecy is not fulfilled. He fulfilled the law that requires death peanalty and a sin offering, but He teaches the law of the 10 Cs. How do we keep missing the fact that Jesus teaches from the 10 Cs?



Did Jesus Fullfill the law of fornication or adultery by abolishing it? No he did not. Heres the proof:

1Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
1Th 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1Th 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
1Th 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
1Th 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
1Th 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
1Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
1Th 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.


Does Jesus teach from the law of 10 Cs? Yes He does.



Mathew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Notic He says and, not or?

Paul teaches us to abstain from Idolatry, fornication and adultery along with many other things contained in the law. Therefor logic demands that the law is not dead. Besides, if we have the law in our heart how can it be finished?
 
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mighty2save

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Christians do not need to follow any laws of the Old Testament as per "Since you are not under law but under grace." in Romans 6:14. But if a God convicts a Christians heart to follow a certain command they should surely be a faithful and obedient servant.
 
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spiritwarrior37

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Jesus Fulfilled the law of sacrifice by being the sacrifice. He fulfilled the law of 10 Cs by obeying it. He says not one little part shall pass from the law until all be fulfilled. All prophecy is not fulfilled. He fulfilled the law that requires death peanalty and a sin offering, but He teaches the law of the 10 Cs. How do we keep missing the fact that Jesus teaches from the 10 Cs?



Did Jesus Fullfill the law of fornication or adultery by abolishing it? No he did not. Heres the proof:

1Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
1Th 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1Th 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
1Th 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
1Th 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
1Th 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
1Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
1Th 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.


Does Jesus teach from the law of 10 Cs? Yes He does.



Mathew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


Notic He says and, not or?

Paul teaches us to abstain from Idolatry, fornication and adultery along with many other things contained in the law. Therefor logic demands that the law is not dead. Besides, if we have the law in our heart how can it be finished?

Prophecy was not a part of the Law. There were laws concerning the prophets, but not prophecy in and of itself. You keep harking on the 10 Commandments; what of the other 603 laws.
 
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11822

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Prophecy was not a part of the Law. There were laws concerning the prophets, but not prophecy in and of itself. You keep harking on the 10 Commandments; what of the other 603 laws.

I hark on the ones Jesus and Paul do. If any other law of moses fulfills the requirement of love and holiness, then i'll hark on that one too
 
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11822

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Paul explains in Rom. 3:19 that the purpose of all scripture is for Jews to conclude that no one can be declared righteous from the works of the Law. Rather, what the Law accomplishes is to define sin, and to bring its violators to where they know themselves as sinners. “diagar vomou epignwsiV amartiaV” (for through law is full knowledge of sin“ -Rom. 3:20) With the Law, sin becomes defined as transgression and it becomes possible and therefore it is possible to have a knowledge of oneself as a sinner. Similarly, in Rom. 5:13, Paul says that where there is no law, there is no sin. Meaning that sin presupposes the Law; in the absence of the Law, there is no sin in the sense of transgression of the Law, although there may be disobedience.

The same idea is expressed in one of the most heated, and debated passages of Romans. In Rom. 7:7-8, Paul says:

“What then shall we say? Is the Law sin? Let it not be! But I did not know sin except through law; for also I did not know lust except the law said You shall not lust. But sin taking occasion through the commandment worked every lust in me; for apart fro law, sin was dead.”

“alla thn amartian ouk egnwn, ei mh dia nomou” Paul here begins to show how sins personified, used the commandment to entrap him. In his viewpoint, sin remains inactive without the Law (cf. Rom. 7:8-9) And says ironically, that with the introduction of the Law, what was intended to bring life brought death. When presented with the Law for the first time, the Hebrews naively assume that they can obey it, However, as stated before, the Law serves to nail a man to his sin, the unexpected result is that man is held in bondage to his sin so that now the Law is passively complicit in producing violations of itself. And this was the Jewish experience with the Law. As soon as he became aware of God’s requirements in the Law, their tendency to sin, defined as transgression of the Law, sprang to life. (cf. Rom. 7:9) For Paul, sin was a power that rules over, and becomes actual in the presence of the Law. Sin requires an external object in order to become actualized and the Law serves this purpose. (cf. Rom. 7:7)

This also appears the inferred meaning in Gal. 3:19a:

“Why, then the law? The transgressions because of it was added”

“ti oun o nomoV; twn parabasewn carin prosteqh” He means that the Law was added because the Jews (and indeed all mankind) are sinners. Paul uses a divine passive in this passage, so that it is God who added the Law because of transgressions. Paul does not explain in which sense the Law was added because of transgressions, but he does write: “until the seed comes to whom it was promised”. (Gal. 3:19b) This implies that one reason why the Law was added was in order to prepare for the coming of Christ, the “seed”. (cf. Gal. 3:16) Why the existence of transgressions required that the Law be made manifest is not stated. But with little doubt we can say that for Paul, the Law functioned to bring sin to light, so that they would see the need to be declared righteous apart from their own efforts or “works of the Law“. (cf. Gal.3:22-23; Rom. 3:20; 4:15; 5:13, 20; 7:7-8)[1] It is also probable that a view held by Paul is that the Law was added to define sin as sin and thereby functioned also to bring the sinner into condemnation and thusly prepare them to receive the righteousness of God.”

Many say that without the Law, as far as Gentiles are concerned, there would still be “conscious” (what Paul referred to as the “law written on the heart” [Rom. 2:15]), however, conscious does not function in the same manner as the Law because conscious can be defiled and even “seared”. (cf. 1 Cor. 8:7; 1 Tim. 4:2; Titus 1:15) Dictums of conscious are thusly liable to being rendered ineffectual, either in part, or wholly. Unlike the conscious, the Law is experienced as existing independently of the one who is subject to it, and not susceptible to perversion. The introduction of the Law has the effect of bringing into existence sin as being defined as violation of divinely -given commandment. It is also possible that Paul means that the Law was added in order to produce transgressions (cf. Rom. 5:2). This would also have the desired effect of preparing the Jew to receive the righteousness of God insofar as the more transgressions a Jew has, the less inclined they would be to deny their need of the righteousness of God.

[1] According to Hubner, Paul means in Gal. 3:19 that the Law was added in order to increase sin, so that the phrase is interpreted as a final and not a causal clause. (H. Hubner, Law in Paul’s Thought, [Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1984], p.24-36) The Law was not added because there were transgressions, but in order to produce transgressions. In fact, Hubner argues that Paul believes it was the angels who gave the Law in order that Jews would transgress its commandments. According to Hubner, Paul later adopted a less radical view of the Law, so that the Law is now no longer understood as provoking sin, but merely as the means of knowing and recognizing sin (69-83). Under criticism by the Jerusalem church, he came to the more balanced view that the Law was on the side of God and was for that reason “holy”, “just”, and “good” (cf. Rom. 7:12) and had an important role to play in salvation history, It is probable better to say that Paul does not change his view of the Law but rather stresses the negative aspects of the Law in Galatians precisely because the Gentile believers in the Galatian churches were very close to submitting themselves to the Law as a condition of eschatological salvation. Besides, Paul does say similar things in Rom. 4:15; 5:20; 11:32 to what he says in Gal. 3:19, and Hubner’s attempts to deny this similarity is unconvincing.

From my paper: "The Law and the Christian, A Serious Look at the Debate on Modern Day Legalism, Section 5, Various Usages of “nomoV” in the Pauline Writings, Sub-Sect. 6.1b. Rom. 3:19-20; 5:12-13; 7:7-8; Gal. 3:19"

God Bless

Till all are one.


That covers the law of salvation and how it relates to the law of Moses, but what about Holiness. Paul preaches obedience unto holiness. He preaches abstaining from adultery, fornication and other works of the the flesh. And what about the law of love? Paul says we obey thou shall not steal, covet, bear false witness or commit adultery for the sake of love.


We have the law of faith
the law of holiness
the law of love.

Paul talks about all three and this is when we get confused. Hes talking about 3 different kinds of law that are all connected to the law of moses
 
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spiritwarrior37

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And as far as the 10 Commandments go, if you want to get technical, Jesus condensed them to 2. Mark 12: "28 And one of the scribes came , and having heard them reasoning together , and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear , O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this , Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."

These two actually cover all 10. Moreover, if you want to live by the Law, where do you keep your perfect lamb for sacrifice? For if you live by the Law, you must follow all of them. Yes, Jesus did become the sacrifice for all sin, but if you are under the Law you are not under the Grace brought about by Jesus' sacrifice. Therefore, if you sin, and everyone does to some extent, you will, according to the Law, have to sacrifice a lamb. Personally, I prefer to be under Grace so that when I sin, I have only to ask Jesus for forgiveness. If you want to try and live by the Laws of Moses given to Israel that is fine with me. I wish you all the luck in the world. As a brother on here states; Know Law, no grace. No Law, Know Grace.

God bless
 
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11822

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Well i know one thing, i don't want to judge myself according to the law but i must. Its not a pretty picture. Self righteousness is not a factor for me. The same with being Holy, im lacking, the same with love, im lacking. But do i throw out that which shows my error? No, I ponder it and pray to the lord for Guidance. What else can i do? Should i declare my actions to be righteous because faith has made me so? No, because no one is good, not one.



Jesus teaches from the 10 cs. I'll go with that i guess.
 
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11822

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And as far as the 10 Commandments go, if you want to get technical, Jesus condensed them to 2. Mark 12: "28 And one of the scribes came , and having heard them reasoning together , and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear , O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this , Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."

These two actually cover all 10. Moreover, if you want to live by the Law, where do you keep your perfect lamb for sacrifice? For if you live by the Law, you must follow all of them. Yes, Jesus did become the sacrifice for all sin, but if you are under the Law you are not under the Grace brought about by Jesus' sacrifice. Therefore, if you sin, and everyone does to some extent, you will, according to the Law, have to sacrifice a lamb. Personally, I prefer to be under Grace so that when I sin, I have only to ask Jesus for forgiveness. If you want to try and live by the Laws of Moses given to Israel that is fine with me. I wish you all the luck in the world. As a brother on here states; Know Law, no grace. No Law, Know Grace.

God bless


Paul said that "love thy neighbor" is a saying that briefly comprehends the law. So if Jesus condensed it, the original law still applies. Jesus preached the last 5 commandments and added love thy neighbor as self which also means that they are not necessarily always the same. Maybe because the law has 3 different purposes, Love, condemnation and Holiness. Faith doesn't need the law but what about holiness and love, it appears they do need the law.
 
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spiritwarrior37

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Paul said that "love thy neighbor" is a saying that briefly comprehends the law. So if Jesus condensed it, the original law still applies. Jesus preached the last 5 commandments and added love thy neighbor as self which also means that they are not necessarily always the same. Maybe because the law has 3 different purposes, Love, condemnation and Holiness. Faith doesn't need the law but what about holiness and love, it appears they do need the law.

Please show me where, in scripture, that the Law brings about holiness.

Now, in one aspect, I do believe we should try to follow the 10 Commandments. But we cant even do that. Yes, Jesus taught from the 10 Commandments and quoted OT Scripture, because at that time, it was all they had. But after His sacrifice and resurrection, a new and better covenant was brought about. Now I see that you keep going back to the 10 Commandments. But like i asked before, what about the other 603? Thats what this thread is about. Following all 613 Laws. They, including the 10 Commandments, cannot bring about our salvation. The main purpose of the Laws were to bring to light just what sin was. The Law cannot bring about righteousness, or holiness. We are declared righteous in the sight of God by accepting Jesus as our Lord and Saviour. Our holiness is brought about by the process of sanctification.

God bless
 
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sheina

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Please show me where, in scripture, that the Law brings about holiness.

Now, in one aspect, I do believe we should try to follow the 10 Commandments. But we cant even do that. Yes, Jesus taught from the 10 Commandments and quoted OT Scripture, because at that time, it was all they had. But after His sacrifice and resurrection, a new and better covenant was brought about. Now I see that you keep going back to the 10 Commandments. But like i asked before, what about the other 603? Thats what this thread is about. Following all 613 Laws. They, including the 10 Commandments, cannot bring about our salvation. The main purpose of the Laws were to bring to light just what sin was. The Law cannot bring about righteousness, or holiness. We are declared righteous in the sight of God by accepting Jesus as our Lord and Saviour. Our holiness is brought about by the process of sanctification.

God bless
:amen: :amen: :clap:
 
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Does God's Law stand forever, or doesn't it?
I guess it depends on what you're calin g God's law? If it is the laws of the covenant with Israel, they have been replaced. Refer to the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus said of the 10 Cs you have heard it said... then says but I say.... This is effectively changing the law. Remember Dr Luke states that the law was until John.
 
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11822

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Please show me where, in scripture, that the Law brings about holiness.

Now, in one aspect, I do believe we should try to follow the 10 Commandments. But we cant even do that. Yes, Jesus taught from the 10 Commandments and quoted OT Scripture, because at that time, it was all they had. But after His sacrifice and resurrection, a new and better covenant was brought about. Now I see that you keep going back to the 10 Commandments. But like i asked before, what about the other 603? Thats what this thread is about. Following all 613 Laws. They, including the 10 Commandments, cannot bring about our salvation. The main purpose of the Laws were to bring to light just what sin was. The Law cannot bring about righteousness, or holiness. We are declared righteous in the sight of God by accepting Jesus as our Lord and Saviour. Our holiness is brought about by the process of sanctification.

God bless


Many of those 603 are ceremonial laws for the OC and we are not Jews under the OC and we have no Jewish temple. So those laws are of no concern to us. Some laws are sacrificial laws and some require a death penalty which Christ fulfilled Himself so no need for those.


Jesus teaches some of the remaining laws. Thats all i know.
 
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11822

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May i join the celebration?


Mathew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.:clap::clap::clap:
 
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Jesus Fulfilled the law of sacrifice by being the sacrifice. He fulfilled the law of 10 Cs by obeying it. He says not one little part shall pass from the law until all be fulfilled. All prophecy is not fulfilled. He fulfilled the law that requires death peanalty and a sin offering, but He teaches the law of the 10 Cs. How do we keep missing the fact that Jesus teaches from the 10 Cs?
Just where is this?
Did Jesus Fullfill the law of fornication or adultery by abolishing it? No he did not. Heres the proof:

1Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
1Th 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1Th 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
1Th 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
1Th 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
1Th 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
1Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
1Th 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
Did Jesus teach sin? No. He didn't teach law either. See the Sermon on the Mount.
Does Jesus teach from the law of 10 Cs? Yes He does.
Where is this?
Mathew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Is this really teaching the 10 Cs or answering a question put to Him personally? Which commandment is Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself? I missed that one in my Bible.
Notic He says and, not or?

Paul teaches us to abstain from Idolatry, fornication and adultery along with many other things contained in the law. Therefor logic demands that the law is not dead. Besides, if we have the law in our heart how can it be finished?
Can I ask a dumb question? Why is it insisted that one teaches sin if they don't teach keeping the 10 Cs? We have a different covenant and don't follow a codified written law by rote. We have the leading of the Holy Spirit. Incidence isn't obedience. Does it make sense that God would lead us back towhat He delivered us from?
 
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