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Sola Scripturists guide on the authority of the Bible

CaliforniaJosiah

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Josiah said:
No. It contains law and Gospel...

But is your point that it is ergo an unsound rule if Scripture is written - and thus objectively knowable? Would the laws of the USA be a better rule if they were unwritten, unknowable? Do you reject the Rule of Law because it's law - written down?



No. But I'm lost what that has to do with ANYTHING remotely related to what is most sound as the rule in the norming of disputed doctrines among us? Or does it not matter to you whether doctrines are true or false?


Read this, especially the sections "Why Scripture?" and "Why the Rule of Scripture is Rejected by Some?" http://www.christianforums.com/t7544221/ I'm confident it will help you understand the topic here.

I reject to see the Bible as the US law. Period !


Do you reject using the Bible as the Rule in the norming of disputed doctrines among us because you reject the concept of Truth OR because you regard truth as simply moot OR because you regard truth as unknowable in any sense?

Do you also reject the Rule of Law? IF so, why?

Do you reject ALL norma normans in all disciplines or just in theology?





There is nothing like the Bible in the whole universe as it is God's truth manifested in it. It cannot compare to anything of human value

Then why is it an unreliable Rule?

What do you propose as MORE true, MORE inspired, MORE inerrant, MORE knowable by all and alterable by none, MORE ecumenically embraced (say by 50,000 denominations), MORE historically embraced (say to 1400 BC)? What is MORE sound as the rule/canon/norma normans?





Cause that does injustice to the TRUTH of God that has been revealed and to God that has not.


Finally we agree on something. Yes, forbidding accountability IS a great injustice to Truth. Read http://www.christianforums.com/t7544221/ under the heading of "Why the Rule of Scripture is Rejected by Some" and you'll find we're evidently in agreement.








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ivebeenshown

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Do you reject using the Bible as the Rule in the norming of disputed doctrines among us because you reject the concept of Truth OR because you regard truth as simply moot OR because you regard truth as unknowable in any sense?
What kind of false dilemma proposition is this??? You should be ashamed.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Like Universalism? LOL!:p
Not many threads on that topic on GT....here is an oldy I found :wave: :groupray:

http://www.christianforums.com/t148163/#post2573985
Universalism vs. orthodoxy

*snip OP:

................As you all can see, the Universalist arguement is pretty convincing and so I find myself on the fence. I'm waiting for a champion of orthodoxy to stand up and refute this nonsense, to show me how aionion can mean eternal, and why sinners really do deserve everlasting punishment in a place like where the rich man, in the rich man and lazarus was.

For myself, I have never questioned the idea that because of my sins I deserve to die, but it does not com enatural to me to say that because of my sin I deserve the same fate of the rich man ETERNALLY. One last thing the Universalists say is that God is a purifying fire and the fires of hell are all about getting people--the unsaved-- ready for God's kingdom.
 
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Standing Up

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-snip-

The Holy Scriptures are not a legal text, nor are the writings of the ECFs.

No problem. Scripture is simply written so we know the truth, and knowing we might be saved.

If folks want to go beyond for whatever reason, they'll do so.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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What kind of false dilemma proposition is this???

IF there is a response, we might find out why Scripture is regarded as unreliable and if, so, what is MORE truthful, MORE inerrant, MORE inspired by God, MORE knowable by all and alterable by none, MORE ecumenically embraced (say by 50,000 denominations) and MORE historically embraced (say to 1400 BC) than is Scripture - what ergo is a better rule/canon/norma normans. Or maybe we'll find the response is that it just doesn't matter because truth just doesn't matter when it comes to binding, divisive, Christian dogma among us. Perhaps we'll see.





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Ortho_Cat

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The portions that I bolded in your post are the issue. You honestly think that you have found this group or church that has the "most accurate" interpretation of scripture. Likewise, I honestly believe that I have found this group or church that has the "most accurate" interpretation of scripture. Many here, in their respective mainstream churches, believe that they have found that group or church that has the "most accurate" interpretation of scripture. The reason why there are multiple mainstream churches is because of the fallibility of man. ALL churches and groups of individuals are composed of fallible men. Even the "great" historical and current theologians disagree with one another on a variety of points.

Now, truth can be absolute because to say that truth is relative is in itself an absolute truth statement and consequently self defeating. I am going to posit, in my opinion, that the writers of the Nicene creed got it right and highlighted the essentials of the faith. The vast majority of believers in mainstream churches have beliefs that are consistent with it. We, Christians in mainstream churches, are in agreement that the Nicene creed provides the essentials of the faith, consequently, all other teachings, rites, traditions, "T"raditions, etc. are denomination centric and relative to a church or group of individuals. This is variety not disunity.

Some interesting ideas here. I have a few thoughts along these lines.

I think that it is entirely possible for two churches to be entirely biblical (that is, the church practices follow the letter of the bible to a "T") and yet also for both of these churches to have significantly different beliefs and practices. How is this possible? Because each body can interpret scripture differently. Further I think it goes deeper than this. I believe that in order for a person to get a fully developed, accurate picture of what "biblical" Christianity is like, that person must also delve into early Church History, and early Christian writings. To me, the NT picture does not provide a 'fully-orbed' picture of what Christianity was like during the 1st century. It seems much of the letters of Paul etc. were written for specific reason towards specific churches at the time.

So that is what I contend, in order for a church to be truly "biblical", that is following the letter of the bible, as well as the spirit, it must defer to these other sources to 'fill in the gaps' of our understanding, so to speak. For example, early church history gives us more details on the practice of baptism, eucharist, etc and how they were conducted. The early christian writings show us how the early church's understood such practices, as well as scripture itself.

Just a few thoughts regarding this, I hope I didn't veer too far OT...:sorry:
It does tye into authority though, which I hope to address later.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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I think that it is entirely possible for two churches to be entirely biblical (that is, the church practices follow the letter of the bible to a "T") and yet also for both of these churches to have significantly different beliefs and practices. How is this possible? Because each body can interpret scripture differently.

IF Scripture is the issue - then I agree, there still can be valid, honest differences as that Scripture is interpreted and applied. Perhaps this is reason to embrace humility....

But if Scripture isn't the issue (at least primarily) but rather the views of self (typically called "tradition") then the range of what might be embraced grows enormously. For example, perfectly within that rubric would be the INFALLIBILITY of the papacy, Jesus visiting the Americas and founding His Church here and a plethora of other concepts not taught in Scripture (nor contradicted by such) but supported by "tradition" as that self so chooses, defines and interprets. And if Scirpture is place UNDER Tradition (must be interpreted IN LIGHT OF or "though the lens of" as my Catholic teaches put it) then, well - anything and everything "goes." And if self determines that self is exempt from the issue of whether what self proclaims is true - then even the very issue is rendered moot.




Further I think it goes deeper than this. I believe that in order for a person to get a fully developed, accurate picture of what "biblical" Christianity is like, that person must also delve into early Church History, and early Christian writings. To me, the NT picture does not provide a 'fully-orbed' picture of what Christianity was like during the 1st century. It seems much of the letters of Paul etc. were written for specific reason towards specific churches at the time.

Perhaps.... although since even the LDS determines that it's views are those of the apostles, MUCH depends on WHO is regarded as a "Father," WHAT they wrote is regarded as normative and WHO then interprets that. And we've simply made the chosen views of men equal to the inspired words of God. I think that Tradition (Protestant definition!) is very, very important - I just don't place it on a par with God. Thus, I don't place Tradition (even in the Protestant sense) on a par with Scripture. IMO, it is the responsibility of man to agree with God - not the other way around.





So that is what I contend, in order for a church to be truly "biblical", that is following the letter of the bible, as well as the spirit, it must defer to these other sources to 'fill in the gaps', so to speak.

I disagree. I don't think God gave us the Scriptures and then commanded one denomination with this task: "Now, in My wisdom, I've left a lot of blanks here - you fill them in and I'll just go along with whatever you come up with."

IMO, as we look at the defining, definitive, distictive dogmas of the RCC and LDS (both taking this: I appoint ME to fill in the blanks mentality) - these things that come from the invisible words God never inspired but self put there - we simply find a disregard for what is THERE and a laser focus on what they put there.




For example, early church history gives us more details on the practice of baptism, eucharist, etc and how they were conducted. The early christian writings show us how the early church's understood such practices, as well as scripture itself.

Yes, there is a Tradition.... And in HERMENEUTICS, such is very important. And if this thread were about hermeneutics or tradition, I'd like to discuss that - but I think it's a rule violation here.





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razeontherock

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Scriptures are static and are not dynamic since there can only be one meaning and that is the one given by the author.

While I agree with what you have been saying generally, I can't really conceive of an infinite G-d giving such limited meaning via any passage of Scripture.
 
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Dorothea

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She mentioned she does read other things. She doesn't give them the same authority others do. Simple really.

She didnt answer the question. Your answers do not make them hers.
 
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Ortho_Cat

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While I agree with what you have been saying generally, I can't really conceive of an infinite G-d giving such limited meaning via any passage of Scripture.

I believe a particular passage of scripture can contain many non-conflicting interpretations (layers) as well.
 
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ivebeenshown

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I believe a particular passage of scripture can contain many non-conflicting interpretations (layers) as well.
I believe so as well. For instance, 'the seed of the woman' in Genesis 3 is related not only to Christ being born of Eve but also to Christ being born of Mary and Christ being born of Heavenly Jerusalem.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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I believe a particular passage of scripture can contain many non-conflicting interpretations (layers) as well.


Um.... But if the "layer" that exists is simply mitigated as moot by the "layers" that don't but the "reader" feels is "implied" - then does the text matter at all? In my study of the LDS, they insist that NOTHING the LDS teaches as doctrine "conflicts" with anything actually stated - although it generally IS in "layers" underneigh (as you put it). When IMPLIED trumps STATED, stated becomes moot. Taken to the extreme, IMO you have the RCC insisting that the "Scripture" it itself alone permits it itself alone to "interpret" is "written in the heart" of itself - not in words you or I could read.






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ivebeenshown

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Christ being born of heavenly Jerusalem? Hm, there's a "layer" I haven't considered!
It's because of Revelation 12, where Heavenly Jerusalem is depicted as a woman who gives birth to a man child who is caught up to the throne of God. She is a stark contrast to the Harlot Babylon. In RC we also see her as an allusion to Mary.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by razeontherock Christ being born of heavenly Jerusalem? Hm, there's a "layer" I haven't considered!
It's because of Revelation 12, where Heavenly Jerusalem is depicted as a woman who gives birth to a man child who is caught up to the throne of God. She is a stark contrast to the Harlot Babylon. In RC we also see her as an allusion to Mary.
Interesting :)

Revelation 12:1 And a great Sign was seen in the heaven.
A Woman having been about-cast/peri-beblhmenh <4016> (5772) the sun, and the moon underneath of the feet of her

Reve 17:4 And the Woman was having been about-cast/peri-beblhmenh <4016> (5772) purple and scarlet and having been gilded to gold and precious stone and pearls
Reve 19:3 And a second-time they have declared "allelouia and the smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages".


2 Women enter, 1 Woman leaves ehehe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmRAiUPdRjk




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LittleLambofJesus

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Um.... But if the "layer" that exists is simply mitigated as moot by the "layers" that don't but the "reader" feels is "implied" - then does the text matter at all? In my study of the LDS, they insist that NOTHING the LDS teaches as doctrine "conflicts" with anything actually stated - although it generally IS in "layers" underneigh (as you put it). When IMPLIED trumps STATED, stated becomes moot. Taken to the extreme, IMO you have the RCC insisting that the "Scripture" it itself alone permits it itself alone to "interpret" is "written in the heart" of itself -not in words you or I could read.
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:thumbsup: :amen:
 
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