Sola Scripturists guide on the authority of the Bible

[sunlover1]

Again, somebody or group or church has to possess the truth revealed to them by God as to avoid belief in relativism.

That's what he said, He said we have Scripture.
GOD's words... THE truth
(Thy word O God is truth)
We got it, yes, we DO have the truth which
was revealed to us by God!

I seriously cannot fathom why this is insufficient in your mind.

Also, IMO, the ECF's interpretation is better than ours. After all, they were much farther along in spiritual wisdom than any of us.

Interesting opinion but seriously, it's not at all a fact.
Especially in light of the fact that they were often at odds
with each other. But we disagree is all. I put no stock in men.
And Scripture says not to go beyond what is written for this
exact reason, that no man be exalted over another (imo)

Of course, it is our goal to get to that point or at least close to it while still on this earth. But for right now, my spiritual state is one of immaturity, and I look to those more mature in the faith and who knew the Apostles or those who knew the Apostles because they knew a heck of a lot more than I could in the 21st century, surrounded by all the clutter in this mixed up world.

[/QUOTE]
I look to the Apostles themselves and do not go beyond what is written.
But more than that. I have God's help.

Or alternatively, one could assert that no one knows who is right; that is, the true teaching be out there somewhere, but no one can know for sure. A distinction, but one which I think still leads down the same path towards relativism that you mentioned.

Wow, like I said earlier, in part:

And if it's not enough that God dwells inside of us:
We have the Messiah, interceding on our behalf! (Gets better and better baby!)
We have the Written Word of God, lol (oh man God is good!)
We have the assurance that IF any man lack wisdom, He can ask
His Father who WILL give HIm wisdom!!! Glory to God!!
We have the ability to hear the very voice of GOD! (His sheep be blessed man!)
We have...promises and we have God speaking to us, and we have an unction
from the Holy one and we have been given everything we could need for life and godliness..

Like it says in the Bible,
He's given us all we need for life and godliness..
And aint THAT the truth!

 

[Philothei]

That's what he said, He said we have Scripture.
GOD's words... THE truth
(Thy word O God is truth)
We got it, yes, we DO have the truth which
was revealed to us by God!

so if I prove to you that Christ is not God and use the Bible then it should be true? When unorthodox Christians say that Christ is not the the Son of God do you agree Sunlover ? And if not why? They use the Bible

 

[sunlover1]

so if I prove to you that Christ is not God and use the Bible then it should be true? When unorthodox Christians say that Christ is not the the Son of God do you agree Sunlover ? And if not why? They use the Bible

They MISuse the bible... but then that's stating the obvious isn't it?

The unlearned and unstable do, to their own destruction.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

They MISuse the bible... but then that's stating the obvious isn't it?

The unlearned and unstable do, to their own destruction.

But how do we know who the learned and stable are? Like I said, my brother accuses me on both accounts all the time. Should I believe him? All Christians use the bible, yes, but they vary radically on their beliefs and practices. Which ones are right? Do correct beliefs and practices matter?

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Just one more thing...it seems we are getting hung up on the definition of truth. Perhaps this question is more specific:

Do you think that there is a church or group of individuals out there who hold the 'most correct' or 'most accurate' interpretation of scripture? If there is, shouldn't we as Christians feel obligated to search for this 'group' of believers?

 

[sunlover1]

But how do we know who the learned and stable are?

IF you have studied to show yourself approved and can rightly divide
the word of truth and IF you cannot spot ignoramuses who twist
the Word of God..., Pray for discernment.
NORMally, i can spot twisting because it never lines up with the rests of the story.

Like I said, my brother accuses me on both accounts all the time. Should I believe him?

Is he serious?
(I don't know you and I don't know him,
are you unstable? Do you twist Scripture? lol)

All Christians use the bible, yes, but they vary radically on their beliefs and practices. Which ones are right? Do correct beliefs and practices matter?

Hmmmmm.. Why do you keep asking me this over and over and over?
I mean, I can keep saying the same answer but why?
Do you find it so hard to believe that someone can read the same book
and get (SOMEWHAT) different takes?
Happens with the Bible, happens with the law books
happens with the writings of the Early Christians..
Or do you disbelieve me, or .. am I not giving a clear
response? Or do you believe I am wrong?

Multiple choice lol.

 

[Thekla]

Interesting opinion but seriously, it's not at all a fact.
Especially in light of the fact that they were often at odds
with each other. But we disagree is all. I put no stock in men.
And Scripture says not to go beyond what is written for this
exact reason, that no man be exalted over another (imo)

I'm still not sure what "disagreements" you're referring to ...
maybe some examples could be given ?

Re: "I put no stock in men" - indeed, God speaks through others, just as He can speak to you or me. He spoke through those who wrote Scripture. Is it impossible that He spoke through the ECFs ?

 

[Hentenza]

Just one more thing...it seems we are getting hung up on the definition of truth. Perhaps this question is more specific:

Do you think that there is a church or group of individuals out there who hold the 'most correct' or 'most accurate' interpretation of scripture? If there is, shouldn't we as Christians feel obligated to search for this 'group' of believers?

The portions that I bolded in your post are the issue. You honestly think that you have found this group or church that has the "most accurate" interpretation of scripture. Likewise, I honestly believe that I have found this group or church that has the "most accurate" interpretation of scripture. Many here, in their respective mainstream churches, believe that they have found that group or church that has the "most accurate" interpretation of scripture. The reason why there are multiple mainstream churches is because of the fallibility of man. ALL churches and groups of individuals are composed of fallible men. Even the "great" historical and current theologians disagree with one another on a variety of points.

Now, truth can be absolute because to say that truth is relative is in itself an absolute truth statement and consequently self defeating. I am going to posit, in my opinion, that the writers of the Nicene creed got it right and highlighted the essentials of the faith. The vast majority of believers in mainstream churches have beliefs that are consistent with it. We, Christians in mainstream churches, are in agreement that the Nicene creed provides the essentials of the faith, consequently, all other teachings, rites, traditions, "T"raditions, etc. are denomination centric and relative to a church or group of individuals. This is variety not disunity.

 

[Hentenza]

I'm still not sure what "disagreements" you're referring to ...
maybe some examples could be given ?

Re: "I put no stock in men" - indeed, God speaks through others, just as He can speak to you or me. He spoke through those who wrote Scripture. Is it impossible that He spoke through the ECFs ?

The ECFs did not make that claim. I am yet to read where an ECF called himself a prophet of God. However, we read time and time again where the writers of scripture do.

 

[Thekla]

The ECFs did not make that claim. I am yet to read where an ECF called himself a prophet of God. However, we read time and time again where the writers of scripture do.

The actual meaning of prophet goes beyond "telling of the future", but in Judaism meant also "friend of God". Per the Jewish view, not all prophets wrote, and a prophet did not even have to teach to be considered a prophet. Can it be said that some of the ECFs could be said to be very close to God, more spiritually mature ? The terminology permits this. All prophecy ended/was fulfilled with Christ, but there are still prophets mentioned in the NT - after His ascension.

If, for example, you agree with the Nicene Creed this is no different than asserting that per your prayerful view those who "composed" it were hearing God (and, by default, those who denied it did not). Likewise on the compiling of the NT.

So, either God spoke to/worked through them or He did not.

 

[Hentenza]

The actual meaning of prophet goes beyond "telling of the future", but in Judaism meant also "friend of God". Per the Jewish view, not all prophets wrote, and a prophet did not even have to teach to be considered a prophet. Can it be said that some of the ECFs could be said to be very close to God, more spiritually mature ? The terminology permits this. All prophecy ended/was fulfilled with Christ, but there are still prophets mentioned in the NT - after His ascension.

If, for example, you agree with the Nicene Creed this is no different than asserting that per your prayerful view those who "composed" it were hearing God (and, by default, those who denied it did not). Likewise on the compiling of the NT.

So, either God spoke to/worked through them or He did not.

Biblical prophets were used by God to bring in new revelation and prophesy. My usage of prophets pertained to fore-telling versus forth-telling. I am sorry that I was not specific. None of the ECFs and subsequent theologians claim fore-telling. All are forth-telling what has already been told from their perspectives. None claim to be inspired and infallible.

 

[Thekla]

Biblical prophets were used by God to bring in new revelation and prophesy. My usage of prophets pertained to fore-telling versus forth-telling. I am sorry that I was not specific. None of the ECFs and subsequent theologians claim fore-telling. All are forth-telling what has already been told from their perspectives. None claim to be inspired and infallible.

Indeed, none claimed to be infallible.

But this leaves the question unanswered, and to rephrase it:

if we can hear God speak in us, can we hear Him speak in others ?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

But how do we know who the learned and stable are? Like I said, my brother accuses me on both accounts all the time. Should I believe him? All Christians use the bible, yes, but they vary radically on their beliefs and practices. Which ones are right? Do correct beliefs and practices matter?

1. USING the Bible.....for what? No, not all Christians or Christina denominations embrace Scripture as the final Rule in the norming of disputed doctrines among us. You don't. Your denomination doesn't.


2. It seems to ME you might think that truth matters, that it actually matters (at least a bit) if a doctrine is true or false. IF I'm correct in that, then you also embrace accountability and norming - and the issue then becomes WHAT will serve as the rule/canon/norma normans for that norming. And you have finally come to the issue of the Rule of Scripture (aka Sola Scriptura) Read the opening post here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7544221/








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[sunlover1]

Just one more thing...it seems we are getting hung up on the definition of truth. Perhaps this question is more specific:

Do you think that there is a church or group of individuals out there who hold the 'most correct' or 'most accurate' interpretation of scripture? If there is, shouldn't we as Christians feel obligated to search for this 'group' of believers?

It's MUCH easier than that.
Those who are led by the Spirit of God are called the children of God.
Ask GOD to lead you to exactly where He wants to.
No. I don't search for some "group of believers"
I seek God and God sends me. It's been an incredible,
knock your socks off adventure so far too!
I could never go back now.

I'm still not sure what "disagreements" you're referring to ...
maybe some examples could be given ?

Oh certainly examples could be given!
A simple google search might help.

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[Hentenza]

Indeed, none claimed to be infallible.

But this leaves the question unanswered, and to rephrase it:

if we can hear God speak in us, can we hear Him speak in others ?

Sure but how do we discern that it is indeed God talking?

 

[Thekla]

Oh certainly examples could be given!
A simple google search might help.

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Have you read some of the ECFs (their writings) and discovered this ?
Can you point out what you have found, the disagreements, through reading their writings ?

 

[sunlover1]

Sure but how do we discern that it is indeed God talking?

Amen.. since they don't all agree on everything, how can we know which ones
are right?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Indeed, none claimed to be infallible.

But this leaves the question unanswered, and to rephrase it:

if we can hear God speak in us, can we hear Him speak in others ?

The mother of a friend is a self-professed Apostle and Prophet - who (with some regularity) receives revelations from God. She is also a Penteocostal minister (but has never had a church) and quite internet able. She sends out the divine revelations she receives and (for reasons entirely unknown to me), I'm on her long email notification list. Since she claims that God speaks to her, ergo He does- and this then is the final rule/norm for the evaluation of doctrines? Or can this be done only by you or your denomination?





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[sunlover1]

Have you read some of the ECFs (their writings) and discovered this ?

Does it matter how i discovered this?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do follow and read links.

Can you point out what you have found, the disagreements, through reading their writings ?

I could.
Or I could search through GT for times you've already
been shown some..
I most likely will refrain from either though since
we all have google and i could make a carreer out
of wild goose chases defending my faith.
Interesting conversations here to be sure.

 

[Thekla]

Does it matter how i discovered this?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do follow and read links.

But have you read the ECFs you claim disagree ?
What were the disagreements you found in the writings of the ECFs you have read ?

I could.
Or I could search through GT for times you've already
been shown some..
I most likely will refrain from either though since
we all have google and i could make a carreer out
of wild goose chases defending my faith.
Interesting conversations here to be sure.

The ones "I've been shown" were not "shown" but claimed ...

I'm not asking you to defend your faith.