Do we choose God or does God choose us?

[ARBITER01]

Nobody said God refuses salvation to any who seek Him.

No this is what he said,..

then you mispoke , many are excluded from salvation .

He is stating that GOD is purposely denying salvation to individuals, as in, GOD is refusing to offer it to them at all.

That is his assertion here, and his doctrine is wrong.

 

[Hammster]

No this is what he said,..

He is stating that GOD is purposely denying salvation to individuals, as in, GOD is refusing to offer it to them at all.

That is his assertion here, and his doctrine is wrong.

If not everyone is saved, then by default some are excluded. Where we differ is why. But we never say that God refuses salvation to those who sincerely seek it.

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[Hammster]

Plus, we've already established that God doesn't off salvation to all (in the way the synergist thinks). If He gave the gift of faith to all, then all would believe.

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[ARBITER01]

Plus, we've already established that God doesn't off salvation to all (in the way the synergist thinks).

Oh really?

So you are saying that GOD discriminates, that He is a respecter of persons, whereas scripture says He isn't?

 

[ARBITER01]

If not everyone is saved, then by default some are excluded. Where we differ is why. But we never say that God refuses salvation to those who sincerely seek it.

GOD doesn't refuse salvation to anyone, period.

He doesn't refuse to offer it, and thereby turns His back on folks. They may refuse Him, and choose to not accept Him and His Son, but Jesus payed for everyone with His blood, not just certain ones.

 

[Hammster]

Oh really?

So you are saying that GOD discriminates, that He is a respecter of persons, whereas scripture says He isn't?

No, He's not. If He was, He'd offer it to all or offer it to none because we are all equally sinful. He has mercy on whom He has mercy.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner while driving down the freeway at 70 mph. (jk)

 

[Hammster]

GOD doesn't refuse salvation to anyone, period.

He doesn't refuse to offer it, and thereby turns His back on folks. They may refuse Him, and choose to not accept Him and His Son, but Jesus payed for everyone with His blood, not just certain ones.

You've made this claim twice about Him paying for everyone with His blood. So I ask again, to what effect was this sacrifice? You may think it milk, but it goes to the heart of the issue.

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[ARBITER01]

No, He's not. If He was, He'd offer it to all or off it to none because we are all equally sinful. He gas mercy on whom He has mercy.

Sorry my friend, but scripture is pretty clear on this,..

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

 

[heymikey80]

Sorry my friend, but scripture is pretty clear on this,..

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

"all people" is a general term for humanity in Greek. "‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people." Acts 2:17

The context of Titus 2:11 describes classes of people. And it's a conclusion phrase, starting with "For".

Teach the older men ... Likewise, teach the older women... Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, .. Similarly, encourage the young men ... Teach slaves to be subject to their masters ... Titus 2, phrases of people classes

So Scripture is not clear on the grace of God appearing to every single individual. Scripture is clear that there is no respect of persons as to class, as defined by any social structure, national membership or ethnicity.

 

[Hammster]

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

"all people" is a general term for humanity in Greek. "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people." Acts 2:17

The context of Titus 2:11 describes classes of people. And it's a conclusion phrase, starting with "For".

Teach the older men ... Likewise, teach the older women... Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, .. Similarly, encourage the young men ... Teach slaves to be subject to their masters ... Titus 2, phrases of people classes

So Scripture is not clear on the grace of God appearing to every single individual. Scripture is clear that there is no respect of persons as to class, as defined by any social structure, national membership or ethnicity.

Agreed.

In most of the "all" verses, if you look back a bit, you see that groups or classes of people have been recently mentioned. I guess that's just not as sexy as pulling verses out of context, though, to support a view. Its the folly of the synergist.

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[heymikey80]

Sorry, nothing that you stated here describes GOD as refusing salvation to segments of people. That is your assertion and it is wrong.

If Scripture puts a name on a group of people -- "hardened","ordained", "not chosen", "wicked", "unrepentant" ... God is no more obligated to save them as a segment of humanity than He was before naming them.

What segment of people did CygnusX1 mention that God is not refusing salvation to?

 

[Hammster]

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,
13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

If salvation is brought to all, then all are being trained and are waiting for Jesus. But I don't think that's the case.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner while driving down the freeway at 70 mph. (jk)

 

[ARBITER01]

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

"all people" is a general term for humanity in Greek. "‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people." Acts 2:17

The context of Titus 2:11 describes classes of people. And it's a conclusion phrase, starting with "For".

Teach the older men ... Likewise, teach the older women... Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, .. Similarly, encourage the young men ... Teach slaves to be subject to their masters ... Titus 2, phrases of people classes

So Scripture is not clear on the grace of God appearing to every single individual. Scripture is clear that there is no respect of persons as to class, as defined by any social structure, national membership or ethnicity.

Nice try, but the word "all" is there, in reference to mankind. If it is all of mankind, then that is what it means, all of mankind.

Such a stance agrees with things attributed to Jesus,..

1 John 2:1, 2 Jesus didn’t die only for our sins, but for the sins of the whole world

1 John 4:14 Jesus is the Savior of the world

1 Timothy 1:15 Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners

2 Cor. 5:14, 19 Christ died for all and He wants to bring the world to Himself

2 Cor. 5:19 God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ

John 1:29 Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world

John 16:8 He will convict the world of guilt

John 18:23 Jesus asked God to let the world know He sent Jesus and loved them as much as He loved Jesus

John 3:16 For God so loved the world

John 3:17 God did not send the Son to condemn the world … but to save the world through Him

John 4:42 Jesus is the Savior of the world

John 6:51 This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world

John 8:12 I am the light of the world

John 9:5 I am the light of the world

Do we somehow begin to think that "of the world" in scripture meant something else besides of the world? I would hope not.

 

[ARBITER01]

If Scripture puts a name on a group of people -- "hardened","ordained", "not chosen", "wicked", "unrepentant" ... God is no more obligated to save them as a segment of humanity than He was before naming them.

Sorry, GOD is no respecter of persons, and certainly no bigot, He doesn't single out people to not receive salvation. They can choose to not want Him and refuse what He offers, but He would be unjust to offer it to only segments of the population and refuse others.

 

[Hammster]

Sorry, GOD is no respecter of persons, and certainly no bigot, He doesn't single out people to not receive salvation. They can choose to no want Him and refuse what He offers, but He would be unjust to offer it to only segments of the population and refuse others.

How would He be unjust?

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[ARBITER01]

Additionally, I'm confused as to why folks would even suggest that GOD refuses segments of mankind when our apostles never made any such claim,..

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you–ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

How could GOD want all to come to repentance if salvation wasn't offered to all?

 

[Hammster]

Additionally, I'm confused as to why folks would even suggest that GOD refuses segments of mankind when our apostles never made any such claim,..

How could GOD want all to come to repentance if salvation wasn't offered to all?

It's offered.

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[Hammster]

Nice try, but the word "all" is there, in reference to mankind. If it is all of mankind, then that is what it means, all of mankind.

Such a stance agrees with things attributed to Jesus,..

Do we somehow begin to think that "of the world" in scripture meant something else besides of the world? I would hope not.

You forgot one.

I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

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[Hammster]

You forgot one.

I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

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And this one.

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Hmmm. Maybe the writers used "world" in more than one way.

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[heymikey80]

Nice try, but the word "all" is there, in reference to mankind. If it is all of mankind, then that is what it means, all of mankind.

All this focus on "all" without recognizing all the facts allways obscures the meaning of the word.

The word is used generally, talking about a grouping as a whole.

And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. Mark 1:4-5

Under the comprehensive definition of "all", the Gospel of Mark should've stopped there. Every person in Jerusalem repented and was saved.

Such a stance agrees with things attributed to Jesus,..

Do we somehow begin to think that "of the world" in scripture meant something else besides of the world? I would hope not.

There's no change to the answer when the verses brought out are actually consistent with the answer.

"The world" doesn't mean every single item within the world. That's awfully clear given the Scriptures on ... the Judgment: Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. Mt 25:46 So clearly not every person in the world will be saved. And so clearly "world" doesn't mean every person in the world, because Jesus came to save the world.

BTW, is "nice try" more than a rhetorical statement intended to goad the prior poster? No matter who's posting, "he one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him." Pr 18:17