Do we choose God or does God choose us?

[ARBITER01]

Okay, what did Christ's shed blood accomplish?

This is where I'll have to stop on your questions there. You're getting into real fundamental things that are milk instead of meat, and I grew out of that years and years ago.

 

[cygnusx1]

Then that would make GOD out to be favoring individuals would it not? Jesus did shed His blood for the whole world.

then there is no election forseen or otherwise .

but the scriptures are covered in election .

and Christ refused to pray for the world , only for believers and those yet to believe .... the elect .

so you must have some explanation for why the High Priest will offer up a sacrifice (His own body) but confine His prayers to those elected ...


why would the High Priestly prayer be limited if the sacrifice is unlimited in scope ?

does it not make more sense to actually see how "world" and "whole world" is usually used in scripture , in a general sense , take ;

"love not the world" , right , are we supposed to avoid loving every person then ? how could Christians even love one another >.. they couldn't.

read my sig ...

 

[ARBITER01]

then there is no election forseen or otherwise .

but the scriptures are covered in election .

and Christ refused to pray for the world , only for believers and those yet to believe .... the elect .

so you must have some explanation for why the High Priest will offer up a sacrifice (His own body) but confine His prayers to those elected ...


why would the High Priestly prayer be limited if the sacrifice is unlimited in scope ?

does it not make more sense to actually see how "world" and "whole world" is usually used in scripture , in a general sense , take ;

"love not the world" , right , are we supposed to avoid loving every person then ? how could Christians even love one another >.. they couldn't.

read my sig ...

Sorry, but GOD does not refuse His salvation to segments of people.

 

[cygnusx1]

Incorrect,..

1. “And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.” (Ephesians 4:30)
2. “Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a deposit.” (2 Corinthians 1:21)
3. “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.” (Ephesians 1:13)
4. “Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.” (2 Corinthians 5:5 )

sorry no regeneration mentioned anywhere here .......

 

[cygnusx1]

Sorry, but GOD does not refuse His salvation to segments of people.

ahhh so you are a universalist .

if not then your comment is inaccurate , for those who remain in unbelief truly are excluded from salvation.

 

[cygnusx1]

Conversion is not regeneration.... Conversion
I. This is the result of regeneration. The new heart is prepared to turn to God and does actually so turn. Without regeneration, the sinfulness of man keeps him away from God, causes him to set his affections upon self and his own pleasure, and to find gratification in things which are opposed to God and holiness. The regenerated heart has new affections and desires and is, therefore, fitted to seek after God and holiness.


II. It is both the act of God and of man co-operating with him.
1. It is the act of God. It is thus described in the Scriptures.
1 Kings 18:37. "Thou hast turned their heart back again."
Ps. 80:3. "Turn us again, O God; and cause thy face to shine, and we shall be saved."
Ps. 85:4. "Turn us, O God of our salvation."
Song of Sol. 1:4. "Draw me; we will run after thee."
Jer. 30:21. "I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me."
Jer. 31:18. "Turn thou me, and I shall be turned."
Ezek. 36:27. "And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."
John 6:44. "No man can come to me, except the Father which sent me draw him."
2. It is the act of the regenerated heart actively co-operating in thus turning.
Deut. 4:30. "Thou shalt return to the Lord thy God."
Prov. 1:23. "Turn you at my reproof."
Hosea 12:6. "Therefore turn thou to thy God."
Isaiah 55:7. "Let him return unto the Lord."
Joel 2:13. "Rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the Lord your God."
Acts 11:21. "A great number that believed turned unto the Lord."


III. The question naturally arises what is the nature of conversion. In reply it may be said that it consists:
1. Not in mere outward reformation.
2. Not in return from backsliding.
3. But in the turning of the heart to God and holiness. It is a turning of the thoughts, desires and affections of the heart from sinful and carnal lusts and pleasures toward holy things, and God, and Christ, and salvation. It is a turning from darkness to light, from the power of Satan to God. [See Gill's Divinity 2:132-4.] It consists "in a man's turning actively to God under the influence of divine grace." [Gill 2:135]


IV. This conversion comprises:
1. A knowledge of the true God, and acceptance of him as such.
2. Knowledge of personal sin, guilt and condemnation.
3. Sorrow for sin and desire to escape condemnation.
4. Determination to turn away from sin and seek God.
5. Conviction of personal need of help in so doing.
6. Knowledge of Christ as a Saviour from sin.
7. Personal trust in Christ and his salvation.

NOTE. A man in one sense maybe called converted as soon as he has truly turned to God and is also seeking to know and do his will. This is that amount of conversion which is so nearly contemporaneous with regeneration as to be liable to be supposed to exist at the same moment with it, and which indeed in a being capable of thought on such subjects must be its immediate effect.
But what the Scriptures and common language comprise in this word is repentance and trust in God's saving power, and, in connection with Christian knowledge, trust in Jesus Christ as a Saviour. The attainment of the fullness of such conversion is by the gradual appreciation of truth, resulting not only from regeneration, and knowledge, but from spiritual illumination of the mind.


V. The relation of regeneration to conversion will, therefore, appear to be one of invariable antecedence.
Wherever the appropriate truth is at the time present its relation is almost that of producing cause, for the prepared heart at once receives the truth. Hence, as this is so generally the case, they have been usually regarded as contemporaneous and by some even as identical. But that regeneration is the invariable antecedent is seen,

1. From the fact that the heart is the soil in which the seed, the word of God, is sown, and that seed only brings forth fruit in the good soil. The heart is made good soil by regeneration.

2. Regeneration (as in infants) may exist without faith and repentance, but the latter cannot exist without the former. Therefore, regeneration precedes.

3. Logically the enabling act of God must, in a creature, precede the act of the creature thus enabled. But this logical antecedence involves actual antecedence, or the best conceptions of our mind deceive us and are not reliable. For this logical antecedence exists only because the mind observes plainly a perceived dependence of the existence of the one on the other. But such dependence demands, if not causal, at least antecedent existence. Here it is only antecedent.

Founders Ministries | ch32

 

[ARBITER01]

ahhh so you are a universalist .

if not then your comment is inaccurate , for those who remain in unbelief truly are excluded from salvation.

No I'm not a universalist, wrong assumption there friend. I for one know that many will go to hell.

You're stating that GOD picks and chooses and refuses others, that is what I disagree with, as well as scripture does not affiliate such a notion of GOD in that way.

 

[nobdysfool]

You post what particular scripture it is that you feels justifies your opinion and we can go over it. Just saying "er well john 3 derp derp" doesn't identify what in John 3 you are using to solidify your points.

You are given tools from GOD to use, so start using them. I'm not addressing anything from you if you won't.

Show some respect, and I will. Imperious gets you nowhere.

 

[beloved57]

arbi:

You're stating that GOD picks and chooses and refuses others,

He does, He before the foundation chose a specific people in Christ, those He chose for salvation through Him, The rest He was pleased to ordain them to hell for their sins.

 

[ARBITER01]

arbi:

He does, He before the foundation chose a specific people in Christ, those He chose for salvation through Him, The rest He was pleased to ordain them to hell for their sins.

He does not refuse salvation to anyone. GOD is no respecter of persons. He does not discriminate against anyone down here with His salvation.

There is absolutely nothing in scripture that remotely suggests that He does, nor has such a notion ever been considered orthodox teaching.

 

[Hammster]

This is where I'll have to stop on your questions there. You're getting into real fundamental things that are milk instead of meat, and I grew out of that years and years ago.

So the Cross us just milk, now. Too bad you think. More than likely, you just don't want to answer.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner while driving down the freeway at 70 mph. (jk)

 

[Hammster]

He does not refuse salvation to anyone. GOD is no respecter of persons. He does not discriminate against anyone down here with His salvation.

There is absolutely nothing in scripture that remotely suggests that He does, nor has such a notion ever been considered orthodox teaching.

You are correct. He does not refuse salvation to anyone who seeks it.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner while driving down the freeway at 70 mph. (jk)

 

[Phaedron777]

You're stating that GOD picks and chooses and refuses others, that is what I disagree with, as well as scripture does not affiliate such a notion of GOD in that way.

This cannot be answered without an accurate theology of the following:

1) What happens to babies and young children when they die?
2) What happens to people in the old testament when they die?
3) What happens to people who never heard of Jesus when they die?

The basic belief of Christianity is that you must have Christ or go to hell. We are all born with original sin, and to fall short in any way is to break the entire law. Neither are we saved through works. Possibilities:

1) The Standard View: The Old Testament Jews had a special covenant with God, they will get into the kingdom of heaven without Christ. Everyone else goes to hell, God merely changed his mind about what saves and doesn't save you when Christ came along. Everyone who didn't hear of Christ goes to hell, babies either go to hell or get a free pass to Heaven. This view portrays an injust God who can do whatever he wants, creating many people with zero chance to escape eternal damnation.

2) The Compassionate View: People in the old testament and those who didn't hear of Christ are judged according to their works. This view implies that Christ is only necessary to save really sinful people and conflicts with the basic belief Christ is absolutely necessary for salvation. This view portrays a compassionate God, and elevates Christian merely to a higher level in God's kingdom.

3) The Universalist View: God is perfectly just, therefore people who never heard of Christ, babies, and most people prior to Christ are reborn into this world. Once they accept Christ the battle for the souls eternal fate is waged. This view solves the issue with needing Christ for salvation, and reduces the population of mankind over thousands of years of history so that more people can incarnate or live during the 1000 year reign of Christ. Others will incarnate after this time, during which the devil will again be released for a while. This unorthdox view might be supported by the following scriptures:

Revelation "The rest of the dead lived not again until after the 1000 years."

John 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven, except he that came down from heaven." (Jesus was talking about himself)

Jude "There are certain men crept in unawares who were preordained of old for this condemnation."

There are many good arguments for reincarnation in the Bible. Regardless I think the view is most accurate due to abortions. Clearly it is evil to punish babies and children who die for eternity, and clearly it is ridiculous to give them free access to heaven. If the latter is true then the murder of babies would be a good thing, because it would save them from the possibility of going to hell and from the fear of having to die for Christ anyway.

Nevertheless, reincarnation is not worth believing in. If it happens, it happens, nothing is gained from it's belief, and everything is gained from fearing the one true God, who has the power and authority to eternally torture anyone he wishes. Life is unfair, so would really come as any surprise if God is unfair too?

It is wise to prepare for the worst case scenario, that of the standard view. We think it's unfair, but God, like any other king, makes the rules and may create people to eternally suffer if he so chooses. We know that nobody is righteous enough to meet his standards on their own anyway, and without proper guidance most live after the flesh.

 

[ARBITER01]

This cannot be answered without an accurate theology of the following:

1) What happens to babies and young children when they die?
2) What happens to people in the old testament when they die?
3) What happens to people who never heard of Jesus when they die?

The basic belief of Christianity is that you must have Christ or go to hell. We are all born with original sin, and to fall short in any way is to break the entire law. Neither are we saved through works. Possibilities:

1) The Standard View: The Old Testament Jews had a special covenant with God, they will get into the kingdom of heaven without Christ. Everyone else goes to hell, God merely changed his mind about what saves and doesn't save you when Christ came along. Everyone who didn't hear of Christ goes to hell, babies either go to hell or get a free pass to Heaven. This view portrays an injust God who can do whatever he wants, creating many people with zero chance to escape eternal damnation.

2) The Compassionate View: People in the old testament and those who didn't hear of Christ are judged according to their works. This view implies that Christ is only necessary to save really sinful people and conflicts with the basic belief Christ is absolutely necessary for salvation. This view portrays a compassionate God, and elevates Christian merely to a higher level in God's kingdom.

3) The Universalist View: God is perfectly just, therefore people who never heard of Christ, babies, and most people prior to Christ are reborn into this world. Once they accept Christ the battle for the souls eternal fate is waged. This view solves the issue with needing Christ for salvation, and reduces the population of mankind over thousands of years of history so that more people can incarnate or live during the 1000 year reign of Christ. Others will incarnate after this time, during which the devil will again be released for a while. This unorthdox view might be supported by the following scriptures:

Revelation "The rest of the dead lived not again until after the 1000 years."

John 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven, except he that came down from heaven." (Jesus was talking about himself)

Jude "There are certain men crept in unawares who were preordained of old for this condemnation."

There are many good arguments for reincarnation in the Bible. Regardless I think the view is most accurate due to abortions. Clearly it is evil to punish babies and children who die for eternity, and clearly it is ridiculous to give them free access to heaven. If the latter is true then the murder of babies would be a good thing, because it would save them from the possibility of going to hell and from the fear of having to die for Christ anyway.

Nevertheless, reincarnation is not worth believing in. If it happens, it happens, nothing is gained from it's belief, and everything is gained from fearing the one true God, who has the power and authority to eternally torture anyone he wishes. Life is unfair, so would really come as any surprise if God is unfair too?

It is wise to prepare for the worst case scenario, that of the standard view. We think it's unfair, but God, like any other king, makes the rules and may create people to eternally suffer if he so chooses. We know that nobody is righteous enough to meet his standards on their own...

Sorry, not interested in an abortion thread.

 

[cygnusx1]

No I'm not a universalist, wrong assumption there friend. I for one know that many will go to hell.

then you mispoke , many are excluded from salvation .

You're stating that GOD picks and chooses and refuses others,

it is you who are stating God will not save every person , so some are saved and others lost , thus many are excluded from salvation otherwise they would be saved.

that is what I disagree with, as well as scripture does not affiliate such a notion of GOD in that way.

not true !

“Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil,” Prov. 16:4.
Christ is said to be to the wicked, “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient; whereunto also they were appointed,” I Peter 2:8.

“For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ,” Jude 4.

“But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,” II Peter 2:12.

“For God did put in their heart to do His mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the word of God should be accomplished,” Rev. 17:17.

Concerning the beast of St. John’s vision it is said, “All that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the lamb that hath been slain,” Rev. 13:8; and we may contrast these with the disciples whom Jesus told to rejoice because their names were written in heaven (Luke 10:20), and with Paul’s fellow-workers, “whose names are in the book of life,” Phil. 4:3.

Paul declares that the “vessels of wrath” which by the Lord were “fitted unto destruction,” were “endured with much long suffering” in order that He might “show His wrath, and make His power known”; and with these are contrasted the “vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory” in order “that He might make known the riches of His glory” upon them (Rom. 9:22, 23).



Concerning the heathen it is said that “God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting,” Rom. 1:28; and the wicked, “after his hardness and impenitent heart treasures up for himself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,” Rom. 2:5.




In regard to those who perish Paul says, “God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie,” II Thess. 2:11. They are called upon to behold these things in an external way, to wonder at them, and to go on perishing in their sins. Hear the words of Paul in the synagogue at Antioch in Pisidia: “Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you,” Acts 13:41.

 

[Hammster]

then you mispoke , many are excluded from salvation .

it is you who are stating God will not save every person , so some are saved and others lost , thus many are excluded from salvation otherwise they would be saved.

not true !

"Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil," Prov. 16:4.
Christ is said to be to the wicked, "A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient; whereunto also they were appointed," I Peter 2:8.

"For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ," Jude 4.

"But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed," II Peter 2:12.

"For God did put in their heart to do His mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the word of God should be accomplished," Rev. 17:17.

Concerning the beast of St. John's vision it is said, "All that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the lamb that hath been slain," Rev. 13:8; and we may contrast these with the disciples whom Jesus told to rejoice because their names were written in heaven (Luke 10:20), and with Paul's fellow-workers, "whose names are in the book of life," Phil. 4:3.

Paul declares that the "vessels of wrath" which by the Lord were "fitted unto destruction," were "endured with much long suffering" in order that He might "show His wrath, and make His power known"; and with these are contrasted the "vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory" in order "that He might make known the riches of His glory" upon them (Rom. 9:22, 23).

Concerning the heathen it is said that "God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting," Rom. 1:28; and the wicked, "after his hardness and impenitent heart treasures up for himself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God," Rom. 2:5.

In regard to those who perish Paul says, "God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie," II Thess. 2:11. They are called upon to behold these things in an external way, to wonder at them, and to go on perishing in their sins. Hear the words of Paul in the synagogue at Antioch in Pisidia: "Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you," Acts 13:41.

When he isn't able to respond (either out of ignorance or because he sees where his view will lead) he'll give some excuse like this is just milk and he's beyond that, or he'll say you are mean in the way you stated something. I seriously doubt he's thought through these issues with any depth.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner while driving down the freeway at 70 mph. (jk)

 

[ARBITER01]

When he isn't able to respond (either out of ignorance or because he sees where his view will lead) he'll give some excuse like this is just milk and he's beyond that, or he'll say you are mean in the way you stated something. I seriously doubt he's thought through these issues with any depth.

It certainly was you that said that I didn't have to answer any of your questions, so why are you upset?

 

[ARBITER01]

then you mispoke , many are excluded from salvation .

it is you who are stating God will not save every person , so some are saved and others lost , thus many are excluded from salvation otherwise they would be saved.



not true !

“Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil,” Prov. 16:4.
Christ is said to be to the wicked, “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient; whereunto also they were appointed,” I Peter 2:8.

“For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ,” Jude 4.

“But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,” II Peter 2:12.

“For God did put in their heart to do His mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the word of God should be accomplished,” Rev. 17:17.

Concerning the beast of St. John’s vision it is said, “All that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the lamb that hath been slain,” Rev. 13:8; and we may contrast these with the disciples whom Jesus told to rejoice because their names were written in heaven (Luke 10:20), and with Paul’s fellow-workers, “whose names are in the book of life,” Phil. 4:3.

Paul declares that the “vessels of wrath” which by the Lord were “fitted unto destruction,” were “endured with much long suffering” in order that He might “show His wrath, and make His power known”; and with these are contrasted the “vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory” in order “that He might make known the riches of His glory” upon them (Rom. 9:22, 23).



Concerning the heathen it is said that “God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting,” Rom. 1:28; and the wicked, “after his hardness and impenitent heart treasures up for himself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,” Rom. 2:5.




In regard to those who perish Paul says, “God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie,” II Thess. 2:11. They are called upon to behold these things in an external way, to wonder at them, and to go on perishing in their sins. Hear the words of Paul in the synagogue at Antioch in Pisidia: “Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you,” Acts 13:41.

Sorry, nothing that you stated here describes GOD as refusing salvation to segments of people. That is your assertion and it is wrong.

 

[ARBITER01]

I guess I should post the rules here,..

Flaming and Harassment
● Do not insult, belittle, mock, goad, personally attack, threaten, harass, or use derogatory nicknames in reference to other members or groups of members. Address the context of the post, not the poster.
● If you are flamed, do not respond in-kind. Alert staff to the situation by utilizing the report button. Do not report another member out of spite.
● Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian.
● Those who do not adhere to the Statement of Faith are welcome as members and participants in discussions, but you are required to respect these beliefs, even if you do not share them.
● Do not make another member's experience on this site miserable. This includes, making false accusations or persistently attacking them in the open forums.
● Respect another member's request to cease personal contact.

From this point on, I'm gonna crank up the report machine with anymore flaming towards me. That's not a threat, it's a promise.

 

[Hammster]

Sorry, nothing that you stated here describes GOD as refusing salvation to segments of people. That is your assertion and it is wrong.

Nobody said God refuses salvation to any who seek Him.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner while driving down the freeway at 70 mph. (jk)