Do we choose God or does God choose us?

[Hammster]

GOD pierces the heart with faith, enabling a person to believe once the gospel message is preached. This does not happen unless the message of Jesus is preached to that person, as the account of Peter depicts..

Okay, then since not everyone believes, then not everyone gets faith. So whole the preaching of the Gospel is the mechanism in which God uses to give faith, not everyone who hears the Gospel gets faith because God doesn't save everyone.

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[nobdysfool]

I'm not sure where people are getting such ideas, but validate your claim with scripture.

It will either easily prove you correct, or just as easy, prove you wrong.

Personal opinions do not work, they are not correct doctrine.

Well, it's not a personal opinion that you didn't choose to be born physically. You had nothing to do with that, other than being the one born. That is FACT.

Jesus Himself compared physical birth and the new birth. The physical gives insight into the spiritual. That is not opinion, that is FACT.
John 3.

And it is also FACT that sloppy definitions make for sloppy doctrine.

Do you deny this?

 

[ARBITER01]

Okay, then since not everyone believes, then not everyone gets faith. So whole the preaching of the Gospel is the mechanism in which God uses to give faith, not everyone who hears the Gospel gets faith because God doesn't save everyone.

I would agree with that, and would also add, that GOD does not override a persons free will. He gives them faith to believe, but they are still in a position to choose to repent, or walk away.

 

[ARBITER01]

Well, it's not a personal opinion that you didn't choose to be born physically. You had nothing to do with that, other than being the one born. That is FACT.

Jesus Himself compared physical birth and the new birth. The physical gives insight into the spiritual. That is not opinion, that is FACT.
John 3.

And it is also FACT that sloppy definitions make for sloppy doctrine.

Do you deny this?

Well, you need to present some scripture if you are going to debate this.

 

[Hammster]

I would agree with that, and would also add, that GOD does not override a persons free will. He gives them faith to believe, but they are still in a position to choose to repent, or walk away.

Show me from Scripture that some can believe and not believe at the same time.

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[ARBITER01]

Show me from Scripture that some can believe and not believe at the same time.

The writer of hebrews talks about it,..

Heb 4:2 For, indeed, we have had the gospel preached to us, even as they also; but the word did not profit those hearing it, not having been mixed with faith in the ones who heard.

 

[Hammster]

The writer of hebrews talks about it,..

Exactly. They had it preached to them, yet didn't believe.

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[ARBITER01]

Exactly. They had it preached to them, yet didn't believe.

Free will is what it is, GOD cannot force Himself upon someone, they must be open to the message and choose to accept. GOD can give the faith to believe, but that doesn't mean everyone will automatically accept His Son.

 

[Hammster]

Free will is what it is, GOD cannot force Himself upon someone, they must be open to the message and choose to accept. GOD can give the faith to believe, but that doesn't mean everyone will automatically accept His Son.

Faith isn't some mystical goo that we can apply as we see fit. Faith is believing. Part of belief is trusting in that which you've put your faith in. If I say that I have faith that two plus two equals four, but on every test I write three or five, is my faith in the answer valid?

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[ARBITER01]

Faith isn't some mystical goo that we can apply as we see fit. Faith is believing. Part of belief is trusting in that which you've put your faith in. If I say that I have faith that two plus two equals four, but on every test I write three or five, is my faith in the answer valid?

Of course not, because actions speak louder than words. You say one thing but do another in that case.

 

[Hammster]

Of course not, because actions speak louder than words. You say one thing but do another in that case.

Then that isn't faith. So if you "say" you believe in the Gospel, yet there's no evidence of it, them you really don't have faith.

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[nobdysfool]

Well, you need to present some scripture if you are going to debate this.

I did quote you John 3. As for the rest, Scripture doesn't address the subject of whether or not you chose to be physically born, but simple logic tells us that NO, you didn't. You were a passive participant, only.

Also, simple logic suffices for the point that sloppy definitions make for sloppy doctrine, and sloppy doctrine is bad doctrine. For some reason, you want to ignore those points, and throw me on the defensive, by trying to make it look as though I'm trying to avoid using scripture. In simple fact, that is deflection.

Please address what I said, rather than trying to marginalize me with replies that completely avoid what I said, but try to harm my credibility without ever answering my points.

 

[cygnusx1]

I don't think anyone said it was a mere human choice, and scripture would not affirm such a notion,..

The Lord brings about the faith in one to make the choice, but it is still a choice that requires a person to repent to Him and desire Him. If they don't do that, they will not be born again.

what I am getting from this response is that human choice is not the cause of the NEW BIRTH , then again , it all depends , if a person doesn't do this or that then he will not be born again , thus the REAL trigger for being born again IS HUMAN WILL ....

the truth is regeneration has nothing to do with any human will , some think that they agree with scripture because they know it teaches regeneration is ONLY by a Sovereign act of God's will , God will discriminate amongst men , but then many deny this truth and propose regeneration and salvation can be brought about by baptism ..... synergistic-regeneration by the back door !

 

[ARBITER01]

Then that isn't faith. So if you "say" you believe in the Gospel, yet there's no evidence of it, them you really don't have faith.

It will be somewhat two-fold, a personal evidence from the risen Lord to the individual, and an external evidence to those around him/her. The external varies since it could be from the simple changing of their lives away from things they used to do, to the more complex aspect of GOD actually operating through them to meet the needs of those around the person.

Faith is the substance,..

 

[Hammster]

It will be somewhat two-fold, a personal evidence from the risen Lord to the individual, and an external evidence to those around him/her. The external varies since it could be from the simple changing of their lives away from things they used to do, to the more complex aspect of GOD actually operating through them to meet the needs of those around the person.

Faith is the substance,..

I agree. So since this doesn't happen to everybody that hears, it's safe to say that everybody doesn't get faith just by hearing.

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[ARBITER01]

what I am getting from this response is that human choice is not the cause of the NEW BIRTH , then again , it all depends , if a person doesn't do this or that then he will not be born again , thus the REAL trigger for being born again IS HUMAN WILL ....

the truth is regeneration has nothing to do with any human will , some think that they agree with scripture because they know it teaches regeneration is ONLY by a Sovereign act of God's will , God will discriminate amongst men , but then many deny this truth and propose regeneration and salvation can be brought about by baptism ..... synergistic-regeneration by the back door !

Well there are many who attempt to promote their church teaching of water regeneration, but that is an altogether different subject.

The "trigger" for this in a persons life is GOD, now whether that person follows through and actually chooses GOD is part of their free will, but regeneration will not happen till they do that, nor will GOD override their will to make it happen.

 

[Hammster]

Well there are many who attempt to promote their church teaching of water regeneration, but that is an altogether different subject.

The "trigger" for this in a persons life is GOD, now whether that person follows through and actually chooses GOD is part of their free will, but regeneration will not happen till they do that, nor will GOD override their will to make it happen.

Who teaches that God overrides the will?

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[ARBITER01]

I agree. So since this doesn't happen to everybody that hears, it's safe to say that everybody doesn't get faith just by hearing.

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I would agree with that, as we seen the scripture in Hebrews over this.

It's not a guarantee that all the crowd a person preaches to will be saved at the end. Faith from GOD is the key here, and a person can be so filled with unbelief and hatred as to reject anything GOD attempts to do for them in this.

It's the same thing with what happened with Jesus and the miracles GOD performed through Him in areas. Scripture does record some areas that Jesus was able to do very little in the way of miracles because of their unbelief.

 

[ARBITER01]

Who teaches that God overrides the will?

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Oh I don't know, it was just a statement, I'm not sure if anyone actually does teach that, but then again, with all the different ideas people develop about GOD and those things associated with Him, it is not a far stretch to think that someone does. Just go into the unorthodox section on here and wade through all the heresy there, and you'll see what I mean.

 

[ARBITER01]

I did quote you John 3.

You post what particular scripture it is that you feels justifies your opinion and we can go over it. Just saying "er well john 3 derp derp" doesn't identify what in John 3 you are using to solidify your points.

You are given tools from GOD to use, so start using them. I'm not addressing anything from you if you won't.