Fiance masturbates and it causes insecurity for me

[highlife]

I tried to read every response but got too frustrated, so if I missed something important, I apologize. I am also married and so if I am not to be here posting, please correct me gently, and I will go away.

When I read this OP, I see feelings and emotions that I fought with for years and years when my own husband was addicted to porn and masturbating. First let me say that it is not going to stop until or unless God takes it away by your fiances yielding it over to God and allowing HIm to transform his life. Let me also say that according to the heart of the law (biblical) it is a sin. Of this, I have been convinced after talking to a knowledgeable person about the matter from a biblical standpoint.

But the real topic I see here is your feelings and emotions. There is a scripture that tells us that sexual sin is caused by low self esteem. Look at your own admission, it is your self esteem that drove you to touch.

So I have a couple of suggestions for you, from someone who has been down that road. 1. build up your fiance's self esteem...there are lots of ways to do this, but one I like is to think of and write a note of something you love about him every day. Give this note to him, and watch God change him as He changes you. (also keep in mind that primarily men get self worth from providing for the family unit, therefore it is important to include such notes in your list)
2. when we go back to Gen. we see that the man primarily get's his worth from work, the woman however gets her worth from pleasing or satisfying the husband, from being his helpmate...this is where your feelings are coming from. Because you sense you are not satisfying your "fella" your self worth is plummeting. So you need to understand, who you are to your fiance as well as understanding that this is not because of you or anything you did or do or did not or do not do. The issues are not part of one another....
3. above all else, pray and talk, always keeping a means of avoiding temptations of all kinds, both between yourselves and individually with porn and masturbation issues. The bible tells us to flee from sexual temptations...do what it takes to remain pure and as you do, pray, and speak openly and with painful honesty with each other. It is only when we put ourselves on the line with this type honesty that we really learn how very much we really are loved.

Well, I better stop there, I'm not even sure I have a right to post a reply

May you find Christ in the midst of your struggles and peace in the midst of this storm.

Could you please provide the scriptural references for your asserations.

 

[razzelflabben]

Could you please provide the scriptural references for your asserations.

which claim? I provided several....My night is about to get crazy, let me know which claim and I will do my best to get to it tomorrow

 

[highlife]

which claim? I provided several....My night is about to get crazy, let me know which claim and I will do my best to get to it tomorrow

I bolded it in my reply. Sorry I have not got the multi quote down yet.

 

[razzelflabben]

I bolded it in my reply. Sorry I have not got the multi quote down yet.

cool, see if I can get the reply in before I get called away....the discussion I had with another poster who was determined to prove scripture did not call masturbation a sin, ended up convincing me it is...there are many scriptures we can go to, all of them would end us up with the same argument...X means y, not z, but z is the intent, no X is the intent, and round and round we go...so the two of us cut to the chase....
Matthew 22:38-40 (New International Version, ©2011)

38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[a] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”


Another passage says that love sums up all the law and prophets. Therefore, if we want to know specifics that are or are not sin, we look to the law of love. I Cor. 13 is the template for that understanding. Now, I could talk all day about what love is, (I've been studying it for years now and am still learning) but the basics are there in I Cor. 13....it is our template for understanding God's purpose for the law and the prophets (the law referring to those things that tell us what is and is not sin. (more passages for that if you like....


4 Love is patient,



doesn't fit masturbation, for if it did, it would not be hard to wait for marriage....but, we can let that slide in a pinch...


love is kind.


doesn't apply....


It does not envy,


again, we can overlook this one, though lust could and does fit into this one, and would result in masturbation being sin, though some claim there is no lusting with it, that is pretty difficult to evidence...


it does not boast, it is not proud.


again, we can dismiss this one, though some might argue it, we are at this point trying to justify it as not sin.


5 It does not dishonor others,


Now we have a bit of a problem here because masturbation does dishonor the mate in our lives or the future mate we will have....this word really means shame and there are a lot of people who feel shame because of it, this would not be the case if it was not sin, however, one could make the argument that shame is from the culture of teaching, so in an attempt to justify we could give in....


it is not self-seeking,



Here is the killer however, masturbation is an act of self pleasure, no one else benefits from the act. Even in the OP we see that where it was intended to be beneficial to another, it really wasn't, in fact, it did harm...so based on the heart of the law, that of love, masturbation fails to pass the test....but let's look on....


it is not easily angered,



may or may not apply depending on how you look at things.


it keeps no record of wrongs.


Does not apply in most cases but again could depending on how you look at things


Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.


Doesn't seem to fit....but could



7 It always protects,



it doesn't protect anyone from anything


always trusts,



as we see in the OP the act usually lead to distrust, not trust.


always hopes,


shows no hope whatsoever, in fact often times destroys hope.


always perseveres.



It certainly does not persevere...


8 Love never fails.

And it absolutely fails to show the spouse desire and love and to build them up, putting them first.

We can look at humility and such in relation to love as well, but the above condemns the behavior as sinful and therefore is sin.....and I finished pretty much in the nick of time....chat with you tomorrow, have a great night.

 

[highlife]

cool, see if I can get the reply in before I get called away....the discussion I had with another poster who was determined to prove scripture did not call masturbation a sin, ended up convincing me it is...there are many scriptures we can go to, all of them would end us up with the same argument...X means y, not z, but z is the intent, no X is the intent, and round and round we go...so the two of us cut to the chase....
Matthew 22:38-40 (New International Version, ©2011)

38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[a] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”


Another passage says that love sums up all the law and prophets. Therefore, if we want to know specifics that are or are not sin, we look to the law of love. I Cor. 13 is the template for that understanding. Now, I could talk all day about what love is, (I've been studying it for years now and am still learning) but the basics are there in I Cor. 13....it is our template for understanding God's purpose for the law and the prophets (the law referring to those things that tell us what is and is not sin. (more passages for that if you like....

I believe the greek has numerous different words for love all with different connotations and meanings, you might want to do a little greek translation for further research. Some of the definitions I have heard are quite different yet we only have one word which is writen in the english bible.

4 Love is patient,



doesn't fit masturbation, for if it did, it would not be hard to wait for marriage....but, we can let that slide in a pinch...


love is kind.


doesn't apply....


It does not envy,


again, we can overlook this one, though lust could and does fit into this one, and would result in masturbation being sin, though some claim there is no lusting with it, that is pretty difficult to evidence...


it does not boast, it is not proud.


again, we can dismiss this one, though some might argue it, we are at this point trying to justify it as not sin.


5 It does not dishonor others,


Now we have a bit of a problem here because masturbation does dishonor the mate in our lives or the future mate we will have....this word really means shame and there are a lot of people who feel shame because of it, this would not be the case if it was not sin, however, one could make the argument that shame is from the culture of teaching, so in an attempt to justify we could give in....

I actually do believe that the shame is from the harsh church teachings and not from the holy spirit or your consious, if a teenager were given a bible and had no exposure to the holier than thou churchs I dont think you would see this. I grew up in a rural area and I never really felt any shame, by the time I was saved and started going to church I was able to weed out all the bolony, but alot of churchs really do pour on the shame and guilt when it comes to sexual issues, and I mean really pour it on.

it is not self-seeking,



Here is the killer however, masturbation is an act of self pleasure, no one else benefits from the act. Even in the OP we see that where it was intended to be beneficial to another, it really wasn't, in fact, it did harm...so based on the heart of the law, that of love, masturbation fails to pass the test....but let's look on....

So is eating good food ...... is that a sin.

it is not easily angered,



may or may not apply depending on how you look at things.


it keeps no record of wrongs.


Does not apply in most cases but again could depending on how you look at things


Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.


Doesn't seem to fit....but could



7 It always protects,



it doesn't protect anyone from anything


always trusts,



as we see in the OP the act usually lead to distrust, not trust.


always hopes,


shows no hope whatsoever, in fact often times destroys hope.


always perseveres.



It certainly does not persevere...


8 Love never fails.

And it absolutely fails to show the spouse desire and love and to build them up, putting them first.

We can look at humility and such in relation to love as well, but the above condemns the behavior as sinful and therefore is sin.....and I finished pretty much in the nick of time....chat with you tomorrow, have a great night.

The problem with putting together really loose arguments is you are on thin ice if you are preaching them as gospel, if you cant point to an explicit scripture that outright condemns it then you are on shaky ground becuase if you have read the bible, the bible is VERY specific on the points it wants to make, I mean it even has dimensions for buildings, I mean an engineer can almost build the arch off the details in the bible yet you have to cobble together scriputre that has no specific language and make reaches in inturpretation in order to condemn touching yourself, do you really think thats preaching truth?

You have to ask yourself what is the churchs motivation for such heavy emphisis on MB and sex (and im not talking about temple prostitution or other sexual deviancy that is specificly condemned) but just garden varity sexuality between a monogomus couple or MB for single people, I believe it is a control issue otherwise why is there so much focus on these really far reaching inturpretations, isent there enough detailed specific things to be focusing on ..... but there are alot of people that have sex and MB ah ha I believe that is the key.

Its not very juicy to condemn people sleeping with animals becuase it rarely happens in the church so that does not generate seminars, books, classes, etc and juicy gossip. Just look at how many sex addicts classes and books and other miusha is generated from the whole anti sex craze.

Dont get me wrong I believe there is lagit sexual deviency but I think alot of the issues are manufacutred by the chruch to keep all these programs going or just to burden its membership in an attempt to control them in an unhealthy way.

I am very happy that my church does not do this, but I have been to many that do.

 

[razzelflabben]

The problem with putting together really loose arguments is you are on thin ice if you are preaching them as gospel, if you cant point to an explicit scripture that outright condemns it then you are on shaky ground becuase if you have read the bible, the bible is VERY specific on the points it wants to make, I mean it even has dimensions for buildings, I mean an engineer can almost build the arch off the details in the bible yet you have to cobble together scriputre that has no specific language and make reaches in inturpretation in order to condemn touching yourself, do you really think thats preaching truth?

and by your reasoning, we can't know what God's intent is about internet use, vehicles, telephones, or even running water because those things didn't exist in biblical days...the point is this, scripture is clear on the intent of both sin and the heart and mind of God. That intent is love...in fact, everything God does is out of love, scripture even says, "God is Love" every law, everything God does is because of love. If breaking His law is sin, and the law is all about love, then applying love to the internet, telephone, running water, automobiles and hundreds and thousands of other things that didn't exist in those days, can have a definite answer for us when it comes to knowing the intent of the law. We aren't talking about building a building, we are talking about identifying what is and is not sin when it comes to things not specified, like guns, and some of our drugs, and porn...these things are new to our society and there has to be a way to know if they are or are not sin....the list in scripture is pretty clear, sexual immorality, but that term has been confused by translations and justifications, so we need a way to clarify what is and is not sin...take a case that is currently going on in our lives...someone we know if claiming that the occasional use of marijuana is not sin. This teaching has caused a weaker brother to stumble and brought up the question in scripture. There is no specific passage that says marijuana is sinful and yet when we look at the translational issue we see that it would be among the drugs spoken out against, we also see it failing the I Cor. 13 test, so do you want to proclaim drug use okay, not sinful because the KJV doesn't say that drug use is sin? Do you really want to go down the road that all drug use is okay because the bible doesn't say it is a sin?

You have to ask yourself what is the churchs motivation for such heavy emphisis on MB and sex (and im not talking about temple prostitution or other sexual deviancy that is specificly condemned) but just garden varity sexuality between a monogomus couple or MB for single people, I believe it is a control issue otherwise why is there so much focus on these really far reaching inturpretations, isent there enough detailed specific things to be focusing on ..... but there are alot of people that have sex and MB ah ha I believe that is the key.

I don't really care what the church teaches, in fact, there are lots of churches that find a lot of sexual acts outside the marriage bed are okay, what I am interested in is scripture for scripture is the authority on what God intends.

Its not very juicy to condemn people sleeping with animals becuase it rarely happens in the church so that does not generate seminars, books, classes, etc and juicy gossip. Just look at how many sex addicts classes and books and other miusha is generated from the whole anti sex craze.

again, I don't care one bit what the "church" teaches, for each one has their own justifications they proclaim to be truth...the only one that counts is scripture.

Dont get me wrong I believe there is lagit sexual deviency but I think alot of the issues are manufacutred by the chruch to keep all these programs going or just to burden its membership in an attempt to control them in an unhealthy way.

I am very happy that my church does not do this, but I have been to many that do.

see above, there is a lot of false teaching in the "church"

 

[highlife]

and by your reasoning, we can't know what God's intent is about internet use, vehicles, telephones, or even running water because those things didn't exist in biblical days...the point is this, scripture is clear on the intent of both sin and the heart and mind of God. That intent is love...in fact, everything God does is out of love, scripture even says, "God is Love" every law, everything God does is because of love. If breaking His law is sin, and the law is all about love, then applying love to the internet, telephone, running water, automobiles and hundreds and thousands of other things that didn't exist in those days, can have a definite answer for us when it comes to knowing the intent of the law. We aren't talking about building a building, we are talking about identifying what is and is not sin when it comes to things not specified, like guns, and some of our drugs, and porn...these things are new to our society and there has to be a way to know if they are or are not sin....the list in scripture is pretty clear, sexual immorality, but that term has been confused by translations and justifications, so we need a way to clarify what is and is not sin...take a case that is currently going on in our lives...someone we know if claiming that the occasional use of marijuana is not sin. This teaching has caused a weaker brother to stumble and brought up the question in scripture. There is no specific passage that says marijuana is sinful and yet when we look at the translational issue we see that it would be among the drugs spoken out against, we also see it failing the I Cor. 13 test, so do you want to proclaim drug use okay, not sinful because the KJV doesn't say that drug use is sin? Do you really want to go down the road that all drug use is okay because the bible doesn't say it is a sin? I don't really care what the church teaches, in fact, there are lots of churches that find a lot of sexual acts outside the marriage bed are okay, what I am interested in is scripture for scripture is the authority on what God intends. again, I don't care one bit what the "church" teaches, for each one has their own justifications they proclaim to be truth...the only one that counts is scripture.see above, there is a lot of false teaching in the "church"

I am not sure of any scriptures that prohibit drug use other than to equate them to drinking in excess, the thing is some of these more power full drugs is excess the moment you take them because they cloud judgement and break your body down. Marajuana is another issue, I still think it can be done to excess but very occasional recreational use I would hardly call sin. It all boils down to the end result of any given behavior, things are not sin just becuase God decided to make a rule list its because they hurt us or have the potential to hurt us.

As far as cell phones and all that, so what, you dont think God transends time and knows the things that would be developed, he likely put the ideas in these mens heads that came up with them. So to use technology as an excuse to make up our own rules above and beyond what God has set out is staunch legalism and thoes people will be delt with by God, read luke 11:46. If you were interested strictly in scripture you would not be trying to invent rules that have heavy implications that God never said. Just because you dont like it does not make it a sin. I also do not think porn or guns are sin either, there is simply nothing in the bible about it, in fact Jesus asks some of his deciples to buy weapons luke 22. If you look at the definition of lust it goes FAR beyond MB to some porn or MB in general, lust is an overwhelming obsession not just MB to some porn and going about your day not giving it a second thought once you get off.

I do agree that we each can choose a stricter standard 1 cor 8 and that I will not do things in your presence that are permissable for me but not you, but just because you have chose these stricter standards that are not explicitly labeled as sin does not mean they are sin for me when I am no longer in your presence.

 

[razzelflabben]

I am not sure of any scriptures that prohibit drug use other than to equate them to drinking in excess,

actually, from a translational standpoint, there is, but one has to study and understand the culture in order to know this....but it is also off topic...so....

the thing is some of these more power full drugs is excess the moment you take them because they cloud judgement and break your body down.

but, if we use your reasoning, that doesn't matter because the bible does not say they are sinful....don't try to play the double standard card here...

Marajuana is another issue, I still think it can be done to excess but very occasional recreational use I would hardly call sin.

and you would be wrong, in fact, when the word that the kjv translates witch or sorcerer is studied for meaning we see that drug use is listed as a sin and among those drugs would be marijuana...in fact, marijuana is often used in pagan worship throughout history and that makes it one of the specific drugs that the translational study shows us as intent.

It all boils down to the end result of any given behavior, things are not sin just becuase God decided to make a rule list its because they hurt us or have the potential to hurt us.

Amen, which is where love comes in and why we can take any issue, lay it on the template for love (I Cor. 13) and know if it is sin or not. When we do, both masturbation and marijuana come out as sin...

As far as cell phones and all that, so what, you dont think God transends time and knows the things that would be developed, he likely put the ideas in these mens heads that came up with them. So to use technology as an excuse to make up our own rules above and beyond what God has set out is staunch legalism and thoes people will be delt with by God, read luke 11:46.

wow...how far can you really get from what I said and showed in scripture....wow....okay, let's back up and base this argument on what I really did say....because scripture tells us in a few places that love sums up all the law and prophets, we know that the law is given out of love, love is the defining element of the law and therefore the heart and mind of God. As such, any new things (like technology) that comes into our lives, can and should be evaluated by the law of love, especially since in the NT the law of love is the prevailing commandment and law. That in no way is saying that God didn't know (in fact, it says just the opposite, that God did know and made a provision for us to know and understand His intent) Nor does that suggest that I'm making up any rules or am being legalistic, (in fact, the opposite is true here as well. What it really says is that there is only one law, that law is love (biblical love, not worldly love) and when we come to that biblical understanding, we begin to see a God whose love is pure and undefiled)

If you were interested strictly in scripture you would not be trying to invent rules that have heavy implications that God never said.

since I didn't invent anything and provided scripture for my assertions, I'm not sure what your going on about...this argument of yours would only apply if I ignored scripture (which remember I provided scripture) and invent something it did not say (remember, I took the scripture word for word, line for line)

Just because you dont like it does not make it a sin.

amen...we can't "judge" anything based on our own prejudice, only on scripture....which is exactly why I went to scripture and asked the question of God, "is this sin?" God responded with scripture, several of them, all saying the exact same thing....and now, you are trying to argue with that scripture....

I also do not think porn or guns are sin either, there is simply nothing in the bible about it, in fact Jesus asks some of his deciples to buy weapons luke 22. If you look at the definition of lust it goes FAR beyond MB to some porn or MB in general, lust is an overwhelming obsession not just MB to some porn and going about your day not giving it a second thought once you get off.

well, first, I didn't say anything about what I found when I measured either of these with God's measure. Secondly, before you judge what I found when I measured, you might want to step back, calm down, soften your heart, and measure them for yourself. It's all about allowing God's amazing love to transform us into His image, and not the image of the world.

I do agree that we each can choose a stricter standard 1 cor 8 and that I will not do things in your presence that are permissable for me but not you, but just because you have chose these stricter standards that are not explicitly labeled as sin does not mean they are sin for me when I am no longer in your presence.

that is something you will have to battle out with God because the measure I used was God's not mine and He alone is the judge....

 

[highlife]

actually, from a translational standpoint, there is, but one has to study and understand the culture in order to know this....but it is also off topic...so.... but, if we use your reasoning, that doesn't matter because the bible does not say they are sinful....don't try to play the double standard card here... and you would be wrong, in fact, when the word that the kjv translates witch or sorcerer is studied for meaning we see that drug use is listed as a sin and among those drugs would be marijuana...in fact, marijuana is often used in pagan worship throughout history and that makes it one of the specific drugs that the translational study shows us as intent. Amen, which is where love comes in and why we can take any issue, lay it on the template for love (I Cor. 13) and know if it is sin or not. When we do, both masturbation and marijuana come out as sin... wow...how far can you really get from what I said and showed in scripture....wow....okay, let's back up and base this argument on what I really did say....because scripture tells us in a few places that love sums up all the law and prophets, we know that the law is given out of love, love is the defining element of the law and therefore the heart and mind of God. As such, any new things (like technology) that comes into our lives, can and should be evaluated by the law of love, especially since in the NT the law of love is the prevailing commandment and law. That in no way is saying that God didn't know (in fact, it says just the opposite, that God did know and made a provision for us to know and understand His intent) Nor does that suggest that I'm making up any rules or am being legalistic, (in fact, the opposite is true here as well. What it really says is that there is only one law, that law is love (biblical love, not worldly love) and when we come to that biblical understanding, we begin to see a God whose love is pure and undefiled) since I didn't invent anything and provided scripture for my assertions, I'm not sure what your going on about...this argument of yours would only apply if I ignored scripture (which remember I provided scripture) and invent something it did not say (remember, I took the scripture word for word, line for line) amen...we can't "judge" anything based on our own prejudice, only on scripture....which is exactly why I went to scripture and asked the question of God, "is this sin?" God responded with scripture, several of them, all saying the exact same thing....and now, you are trying to argue with that scripture.... well, first, I didn't say anything about what I found when I measured either of these with God's measure. Secondly, before you judge what I found when I measured, you might want to step back, calm down, soften your heart, and measure them for yourself. It's all about allowing God's amazing love to transform us into His image, and not the image of the world.that is something you will have to battle out with God because the measure I used was God's not mine and He alone is the judge....

The reason I say that this construct is like luke 11:46 is becuase the end result of your scriptural construct is that MB is a sin, that places a heavy burden squarly on the young male population who are not happily married. A failure to relieve sexual tension can lead to irritability, hostility and even medical issues, it can cause mental distraction that is intense enough to loose ones job or not be able to function socially, etc. Thats why it does not matter to me how far out in the cabbage patch we go with religious docrine, the end result is a burden.

 

[razzelflabben]

The reason I say that this construct is like luke 11:46 is becuase the end result of your scriptural construct is that MB is a sin, that places a heavy burden squarly on the young male population who are not happily married. A failure to relieve sexual tension can lead to irritability, hostility and even medical issues, it can cause mental distraction that is intense enough to loose ones job or not be able to function socially, etc. Thats why it does not matter to me how far out in the cabbage patch we go with religious docrine, the end result is a burden.

so what you are saying is that you don't accept scripture when it makes someone face struggles and hardships, for when someone is "put out" by scripture it must be wrong and we will use a scripture to justify that prejudice....

So, first let me say that I didn't write scripture, therefore, this argument is not an argument against me, but rather one against God, the author of the very scripture you tried to use against me....

Secondly, when it comes to the young male population, I have 4 boys, ages 11-almost 22, I know something about their struggles over this issue in that it came up and was talked about openly after my husbands bout with porn and masturbation issues. Let's take a deeper look into your objections....

A failure to relieve sexual tension can lead to irritability,

not getting enough sleep, having a bad day, breaking up with a girl friend, having a fight with your parents, burning your toast, getting a bad grade at school, are all causes for irritability, what does that prove? We get irritable for all kinds of reasons but we don't go around removing tests from schools, parents from our lives, girlfriends from our lives, etc. because we might get irritable.....nonsense argument....

hostility

This is an excellent reason to allow the fruit of the Spirit into our lives (Gal. 5:22-23) but let's look at things that can and do cause hostility and see if we ban them from our lives....anger, friends, family, teachers, traffic, etc. Nope, again, these things are just an everyday part of everyday life and we need to be teaching our children and ourselves to exercise self control over these emotions rather than to make excuses for living in them....

and even medical issues,


The first thing to keep in mind is that there is no record that I can find in which someone suffered physical ailment or death from not having sex or masturbating....there are reports from people who died while having sex, but I can't find a single case of someone dieing from not relieving themselves. this includes suffering physical harm....in fact, the only medical information I can find warns against masturbating toooooo much.

So as to the health issue, you cannot support that with medical reports unless there is a report hidden somewhere in which I would encourage you to present the medical study....in fact, I would love it if you would...but remember it has to be a medical paper not some story someone tells.

it can cause mental distraction

Wow, when was the last time you were in a high school, or even a Jr. High school? mental distraction is a part of everyday life, opposite sex is just one of the mental distractions, we also have noise, lighting, home issues, drug issues, peer pressure, etc. etc. etc. but we don't remove all those distractions and say "poor thing, let's get rid of all your peer so you are distracted anymore" instead, we teach our children to work through those distractions to realize a greater good.

that is intense enough to loose ones job or not be able to function socially,

Again, I would really love to see the scientifically done study that shows that if you don't touch you will loose your job and not be able to function socially because I know from the guys in this household that they can avoid masturbating by emersing themselves into other things, like work or social activities. when I looked this one up on the internet, all it gave me was about a female loosing their virginity by masturbating...in fact, for decades now, men were told to control their urges through cold showers, long walks, etc. Suddenly you want to try to convince me that guys will loose their jobs if they take a cold shower rather than touch...do show the study, please!!!!!!! I beg of you to show evidence to any of these claims....it's all pop science bent on justification as best I can find, evidence would be refreshing...please bring it on....

Thats why it does not matter to me how far out in the cabbage patch we go with religious docrine, the end result is a burden

Now, previously you told us you don't care what scripture says (well technically you suggested it you didn't come out and actually admit it) but rather you cared about burden...let's talk a bit about burden...you have not yet presented one varifiable argument that holds water and in addition you are missing the entire burden point by forgetting that even in this very thread, the masturbation was causing harm to the person it was intending to protect. That dear one is burden....when we hurt someone else because of our selfish desires, we sin. When we hurt someone we are trying to protect, that is burden. In the OP, the burden is on the one masturbating because harm was done. And the funny thing is, we see the same thing time and time and time again, harm to others when we touch...don't believe me, do a web search and find out how many woman struggle with their husbands masturbation...it harms them...as to singles, that goes back to scripture and sin...

oh and Luke 11 the lifting of the burden comes when we actually teach truth and scripture and what scripture teaches about how to overcome sin....which is all included in what I said....

 

[highlife]

lack of relief has been tied to prostate cancer at worse and physical discomfort at the least. The nice thing about the MB debate is I dont have to disagree with scripture I just have to disagree with your far reaching inturpretations because as we discussed before there is no where it is specificly called out as a sin. Also doing it in moderation (ie not an addict) can have possitive effects on ones well being. Where as doing hard drugs is never positive and leads to destruction.

These sorts of debates become convoluded only when you are on the side of trying to control others, when you are on the side of freedom they are really simple. When you go through the bible there are really only a hand full of bonified absolute sins outside of thoes we are free.

 

[razzelflabben]

lack of relief has been tied to prostate cancer at worse and physical discomfort at the least. The nice thing about the MB debate is I dont have to disagree with scripture I just have to disagree with your far reaching inturpretations because as we discussed before there is no where it is specificly called out as a sin. Also doing it in moderation (ie not an addict) can have possitive effects on ones well being. Where as doing hard drugs is never positive and leads to destruction.

You were asked and begged to show medical evidence and all you offer is more assertions and false accusations about scripture....come on now, you can do better than that...show the medical evidence at least....I mean you can't offer any scriptural disagreement, and you don't offer any medical claims that show health risk all you offer is discomfort, as in, I stubbed my toes, I'm in discomfort...I have a hangnail, I'm in discomfort....I got a speeding ticket, I'm in discomfort, you aren't even equating it to pain as in the loss of a loved one, or surgery....as to drugs, we are looking for scriptural evidence, not more of your baseless assertions....

These sorts of debates become convoluded only when you are on the side of trying to control others, when you are on the side of freedom they are really simple. When you go through the bible there are really only a hand full of bonified absolute sins outside of thoes we are free.

Scripture is all about freedom...the freedom to choose for self as well as freedom from sin, what would even make you suggest it was about control....? Scripture is about freedom from the sins that bind us...sins like masturbation, porn and drugs as well as a host of others.

 

[highlife]

You were asked and begged to show medical evidence and all you offer is more assertions and false accusations about scripture....come on now, you can do better than that...show the medical evidence at least....I mean you can't offer any scriptural disagreement, and you don't offer any medical claims that show health risk all you offer is discomfort, as in, I stubbed my toes, I'm in discomfort...I have a hangnail, I'm in discomfort....I got a speeding ticket, I'm in discomfort, you aren't even equating it to pain as in the loss of a loved one, or surgery....as to drugs, we are looking for scriptural evidence, not more of your baseless assertions....Scripture is all about freedom...the freedom to choose for self as well as freedom from sin, what would even make you suggest it was about control....? Scripture is about freedom from the sins that bind us...sins like masturbation, porn and drugs as well as a host of others.

Google.com

Even if its not life threatning im going to take action if something is a discomfort, im not going to leave a splinter in, im not going to keep walking on a stubbed toe. The absense of a specific condemnation in the bible AND that there are NO negitive consequences for managed (non addictive) MB is HUGE and makes my side of the debate alot easier. It makes your side of the debate a near impossible task, so my hat is off to you for taking that side of the debate.

 

[chris4243]

My fiance still masturbates, and althugh he hasn't been looking at pornography, It still makes me very insecure because I wonder whether or not he is thinking of the things he has seen in the past, and thus it makes me frustrated and I feel weaker to fight off temptations to do things with him to reaffirm myself that he still finds me attractive, sexy, desirable etc.

What if you sent him more "appropriate" pictures? But only if you're sure he wouldn't put them on the internet.

And I end up masturbating myself to control it.

Then I don't think you can blame him.

 

[chris4243]

lack of relief has been tied to prostate cancer at worse and physical discomfort at the least. The nice thing about the MB debate is I dont have to disagree with scripture I just have to disagree with your far reaching inturpretations because as we discussed before there is no where it is specificly called out as a sin. Also doing it in moderation (ie not an addict) can have possitive effects on ones well being. Where as doing hard drugs is never positive and leads to destruction.

These sorts of debates become convoluded only when you are on the side of trying to control others, when you are on the side of freedom they are really simple. When you go through the bible there are really only a hand full of bonified absolute sins outside of thoes we are free.

I can confidently say that masturbation is not a sin.* If you consider the things the Bible does mention, adultery, fornication among a priest's daughters, temple prostitution, bestiality, ..., and might as well add on the regulations on clean/unclean foods, etc. All these minor issues very specifically mentioned, and masturbation not? Even animals touch; and it would be ridiculous to think no one knew about masturbation back in the day. The only reasonable conclusion is that masturbation must have been allowed, else it would have been directly forbidden.

*However, lust is a sin.

Furthermore, I'd say denouncing masturbation as sinful, is itself a sin. For one thing, you are speaking on behalf of God things He did not command. For another, you're placing a heavy burden on people, like the Pharisees placed a heavy burden on them, and one that many of them cannot bear. Third, you are harming others in violation of the Golden rule. This harm is physical anguish, possibly also physical harm such as increasing rate of prostrate cancer and other physical ailments, shame of something that is not a sin and which could turn people away from God, and also because the grumpiness of the affected will affect other people who interact with them.

However as the Apostle Paul taught, someone else's conscience can still be cause for stumbling. If you have a partner and they do not approve of masturbation, then for their sake you should not.

 

[razzelflabben]

Google.com

tried that, found no medical evidence of harm...which is why I asked you for evidence, apparently you can't find any either...

Even if its not life threatning im going to take action if something is a discomfort, im not going to leave a splinter in, im not going to keep walking on a stubbed toe.

so what then do you do with all the many passages that talk about suffering....what about "in this life you will have troubles"....those are all discomforts we are told we will have and that persevering through them will be beneficial to us.....? Shall we dismiss all those parts of the bible as well because you don't like them? Sorry, I believe the bible to be the Word of God and therefore important to teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

The absense of a specific condemnation in the bible AND that there are NO negitive consequences for managed (non addictive) MB is HUGE and makes my side of the debate alot easier.

no more so than anything else in this world...scripture does not say, don't abuse your kids, does that mean then that child abuse is not sin? We already talked about drugs, what about canabalism, or porn or kiddie porn? All things we in our society believe to be sin, and yet scripture does not say thou shall not take LSD, so it's okay right? Nonsense, in fact there are many lists that are general in nature that tell us these things are sinful. Masturbation is among the sexual immorality category and is shown by scripture to be sin. Unless or until you can evidence otherwise using scripture and the intent of God and/or the law, you simply have no argument other than "because I say so" Use scripture to defend your stand....it's there, it's called the command of God.

It makes your side of the debate a near impossible task, so my hat is off to you for taking that side of the debate.

you apparently haven't been reading the scriptures I presented to you and if your only argument then is 'i'm gonna ignore your scriptures so that I can be my own god' I'm finished with this discussion and pray God speaks to you and humbles you enough to at least look at scripture for intent...iow's if you cannot address the scriptures presented, you aren't looking at scripture for intent and that is making yourself your own god and I have no use for that....if you want to evidence yourself as not playing god, present scripture, show how the scriptures that tell us love sums up all the law and prophets doesn't show us specifics that scripture otherwise presents as generals....show it....I beg of you, put some kind of evidence into the argument so that it at least sounds like a good argument....please....please prove me wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please prove me wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[razzelflabben]

I can confidently say that masturbation is not a sin.* If you consider the things the Bible does mention, adultery, fornication among a priest's daughters, temple prostitution, bestiality, ..., and might as well add on the regulations on clean/unclean foods, etc. All these minor issues very specifically mentioned, and masturbation not? Even animals touch; and it would be ridiculous to think no one knew about masturbation back in the day. The only reasonable conclusion is that masturbation must have been allowed, else it would have been directly forbidden.

so porn is not sinful, kiddie porn is not sinful, stripping is not sinful, drugs are not sinful, etc. because they are not specified in scripture? Really, this is really the place you want to take us with this argument?

*However, lust is a sin.

Furthermore, I'd say denouncing masturbation as sinful, is itself a sin.

so let's use your argument above....what passage says that if we denounce masturbation as sinful it is sin? Remember, we are looking at consistency of argument....

For one thing, you are speaking on behalf of God things He did not command. For another, you're placing a heavy burden on people, like the Pharisees placed a heavy burden on them, and one that many of them cannot bear. Third, you are harming others in violation of the Golden rule.

In the rest of this paragraph I am looking for something that has not already been addressed without a rebuttal offered...this idea of the Golden rule is the first one to come up... but what you fail to understand is that the golden rule is why masturbation is considered a sin.

This harm is physical anguish, possibly also physical harm such as increasing rate of prostrate cancer and other physical ailments, shame of something that is not a sin and which could turn people away from God, and also because the grumpiness of the affected will affect other people who interact with them.

that is also a new one, people will reject Christ because they can't touch....that would also take us back to the sin of masturbation because sin is the only thing that can keep us from God...shall we look at scripture on that?

However as the Apostle Paul taught, someone else's conscience can still be cause for stumbling. If you have a partner and they do not approve of masturbation, then for their sake you should not.

well, your half right....

 

[highlife]

so porn is not sinful, kiddie porn is not sinful, stripping is not sinful, drugs are not sinful, etc. because they are not specified in scripture? Really, this is really the place you want to take us with this argument? so let's use your argument above....what passage says that if we denounce masturbation as sinful it is sin? Remember, we are looking at consistency of argument.... In the rest of this paragraph I am looking for something that has not already been addressed without a rebuttal offered...this idea of the Golden rule is the first one to come up... but what you fail to understand is that the golden rule is why masturbation is considered a sin. that is also a new one, people will reject Christ because they can't touch....that would also take us back to the sin of masturbation because sin is the only thing that can keep us from God...shall we look at scripture on that? well, your half right....

Read the very last verse in revalations, I have read your scriptures and they are just your inturpretations, sorry its really as simple as that. There is no benifit to not masterbating if you "overcome", you just simply become an irritable person to be around. When it comes to trials and tribulations there has to be a base line, the trial and then coming out on the other side, not MBing just creates problems, there is no "victory" just on going suffering. Some times God calls people to death but the suffering is never for longer than a 10 day period (revalations 1 or 2), so this idea of perpetual suffering is not biblically based, trials from God are very specific, now trials that are from our own doing can go on forever like not MBing becasue its not from God, its your own manufactured intrupretations.

MB does not correlate to drug use,

Hard drug use (not including drinking or pot) - destruction
MB (outside of extreme addiction) - physical release and health benifits, absolutly no negitive effects and no specific biblical condemnation.
attraction to pre pubescent children - im pretty sure there is something in the OT about this (I will dig for it), also it is destructive to the child as they are not yet sexually mature.
Stripping and porn CAN be sinful but not nessicarily, it depends on if lust is involved, and the proper definition of lust is the dividing line - lust is when something gets so out of control it becomes destructive (loss of job, obsessing over the stripper consumes your thoughts, you seek her out in an obsessive manner, police reports are filed, restraining orders, etc).

i have started to notice that "sexual immorality" is always tied with idol worship in the bible.

Your end goal is to prop up a flimsy biblical argument as your foundation to then lay burdens on men of christ as the pharisies did, your arguments are staunch legalism and you will accept nothing less than thoes burdens being laid squarly on young christian mens shoulders, woe to you.

 

[Mayzoo]

Just a heads up for those that missed it, the OP has now been happily married for 5 months and both topics of this thread are no longer an issue for them.

 

[razzelflabben]

Read the very last verse in revalations,

21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

and how does that address the issue at hand? Where does that verse say anything at all about masturbation?

I have read your scriptures and they are just your inturpretations,

not really, but let's look at the first verse I posted on the matter and you tell me how else it can be interpreted....I referred you to several all saying the same thing, so will pull this one out...Galatians 5:14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Now, my interpretation of this is that Love is the thing that sums up or summarizes all the law and the prophets...this law and prophets is usually assumed to be referring to the OT law and prophets in that that is consistent with the totality of scripture.

Now, if you want to really make the argument that this is just my interpretation (a very weak argument btw) then you need to provide additional possible interpretations for us to review....I'm anxiously awaiting those rebuttal possible interpretations....

sorry its really as simple as that. There is no benifit to not masterbating if you "overcome",

actually, there are several benefits, one is the lack of harm to spouse or future spouse, one is self esteem and another is learning self control, and I haven't even stopped to think about it yet and I still found 3 benefits you claim don't exist. How can it be that something that does NOT exist actually DOES exist?

you just simply become an irritable person to be around. When it comes to trials and tribulations there has to be a base line, the trial and then coming out on the other side, not MBing just creates problems,

well you are really wrong there, there is another side, a coming through it as it were, and the benefits are not only big, but biblical, as you have been shown but refuse to accept.

there is no "victory" just on going suffering.

see above, without even trying I can name 3 benefits to refraining.

Some times God calls people to death but the suffering is never for longer than a 10 day period (revalations 1 or 2), so this idea of perpetual suffering is not biblically based, trials from God are very specific, now trials that are from our own doing can go on forever like not MBing becasue its not from God, its your own manufactured intrupretations.

wow, so the guy who is suffering in prison for Christ, or the person who is maimed for the sake of Christ isn't still maimed after 10 days? I think you better read Rev. 1 and 2 again. And just for the record, there are a lot of different types of trials and temptations and sufferings and we are not to give into them, not sure why you think this one is different.

MB does not correlate to drug use,

in that it fails the love test, it absolutely does correlate...in that it fails the "specifically mentioned" test it absolutely does correlate...it's about consistency of argument and you don't have that consistency which is a symptom of being wrong.

Hard drug use (not including drinking or pot) - destruction
MB (outside of extreme addiction) - physical release and health benifits, absolutly no negitive effects and no specific biblical condemnation.

try again, without an actual rebuttal it's as if your saying, "is too because I said so" you need an actual rebuttal if you want to be taken seriously.

attraction to pre pubescent children - im pretty sure there is something in the OT about this (I will dig for it), also it is destructive to the child as they are not yet sexually mature.

I'm anxiously awaiting what OT you pull out...in fact, you do realize I hope that in the culture of the OT, one could marriage was often at a very young age, in fact, death was at a much younger age as well, meaning that marriage in order to procreate had to happen in the teen years.

Stripping and porn CAN be sinful but not nessicarily, it depends on if lust is involved, and the proper definition of lust is the dividing line - lust is when something gets so out of control it becomes destructive (loss of job, obsessing over the stripper consumes your thoughts, you seek her out in an obsessive manner, police reports are filed, restraining orders, etc).

wow, I would love to show you defintions and translations but that would be way off topic...let's just say that the amount of justification here blows my mind.

i have started to notice that "sexual immorality" is always tied with idol worship in the bible.

no not really but if you want to try to show it in scripture, I'm all ears, I will actually offer rebuttal however, keep that in mind....I'm not afraid to offer rebuttal, and I love to offer scripture....

Your end goal is to prop up a flimsy biblical argument as your foundation to then lay burdens on men of christ as the pharisies did, your arguments are staunch legalism and you will accept nothing less than thoes burdens being laid squarly on young christian mens shoulders, woe to you.

actually, in this household, my husband was the first to discover the sin nature of masturbation and taught it to me, you know, a man actually coming to the realization that sin is sin....how could it be (sarcasm) Secondly, the biblical argument is more solid than I thought in that no one here can offer a biblical rebuttal...that makes it a strong argument, not a flimsy one...the really funny thing is that when I first argued this truth, the man I was talking to (a masturbation is good advocate) suggested we use I Cor. 13 as our bases for understanding what is and is not sin. When we did as he suggested, it came back as sin and instead of arguing with a rebuttal, he got made, claimed I forced him to look at I Cor 13 (remember it was his idea) and demanded he was right no matter what scripture says....sounds like the two of you are reading from each others play books. I'll watch and see if you go as far as he did.