Post-Trib Model Failure:The Day of The Lord

[NJBeliever]

why?
wrath of God poured out on Babylon, in Rev16-18
and then in Rev19, Christ leaves heaven with the dead
and comes here to earth to get the bride (many waters of verses6-8)

I explain it in the OP and I have not seen any response which actually address the Biblical application and Scriptural interpretations asserted. If you care to do so, I'm all ears.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

Post-Trib Failure: The Day of The Lord

[FONT=&quot]I have decided to do a series on the Post-trib Rapture model. I believe that despite its popularity, it is a very flawed model when put under Biblical scrutiny. Instead of making one mega-post, I decided to make threads focusing on key salient issues that I think show why the model cannot be correct. [/FONT]

This post is a point I actually have to credit the post-tribbers in this forum with. It was through being exposed to so many Post-tribber posts and arguments I came to realize that one of the most fundamental flaws in the Post-Trib model is the misunderstanding of the Day of The Lord. It centers on this verse:

2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


Essentially for the Post-Trib model to work, the "unexpected" arrival of Jesus and the Rapture must occur at the end of the "Great Tribulation"/70th week of Daniel. Thus the "Day of The Lord" must be at the end of the Great Tribulation and it's basically the Second Coming of Christ (with HIs saints presumably), according to the Post-trib model. This is serious Biblical error. There are many, many Old Testament Scriptures that prove this but I am going to focus on the one most salient passage that without a doubt signifies the start of the Day of The Lord:

Actually, this would be incorrect. When people take a limited view of the day of The Lord, they often arrive at seemingly erroneous points they feel they can easily refute. Yet it is setting up a straw man and tearing it down. It is not addressing the actual belief regarding the day of The Lord. The mistake so many make is limiting the day of The Lord to an actual day or a single event. Yet Scripturally, the day of The Lord spans an entire millennium. What this means is that many things will happen on the day of The Lord. So we can have God pour out His wrath on the day of The Lord. We can have Christ defeat the man of sin on the day of The Lord. We can have Christ gather His elect on the day of The Lord. We can have those of the first resurrection live and reign with Christ for a thousand years on the day of The Lord. We can have Christ establish His kingdom on the day of The Lord. We can have all nations beat their swords into plow shares and learn war no more on the day of The Lord. We can have the reestablishment of the whole house of Israel under one king on the day of The Lord.


We can have the great white thrown judgment at the end of the thousand years on the day of The Lord. We can have Satan bound at the beginning of the thousand years and released again at the end of the thousand years on the day of The Lord. We can have the battle of Armageddon at Christ’s return at the beginning of the day of The Lord, and we can have Satan’s last stand with Gog and Magog at the end of the thousand years on the same day of the Lord. Sense a theme in all of this? The day of The Lord is not limited to one single event. Just as you do not do everything you do in a 24 hour earth day at the same time of the day, so too God will not do everything that is to be done on the day of The Lord in the same moment of that great and terrible day.

 

[LovedofHim]

Actually, this would be incorrect. When people take a limited view of the day of The Lord, they often arrive at seemingly erroneous points they feel they can easily refute. Yet it is setting up a straw man and tearing it down. It is not addressing the actual belief regarding the day of The Lord. The mistake so many make is limiting the day of The Lord to an actual day or a single event. Yet Scripturally, the day of The Lord spans an entire millennium. What this means is that many things will happen on the day of The Lord. So we can have God pour out His wrath on the day of The Lord. We can have Christ defeat the man of sin on the day of The Lord. We can have Christ gather His elect on the day of The Lord. We can have those of the first resurrection live and reign with Christ for a thousand years on the day of The Lord. We can have Christ establish His kingdom on the day of The Lord. We can have all nations beat their swords into plow shares and learn war no more on the day of The Lord. We can have the reestablishment of the whole house of Israel under one king on the day of The Lord.


We can have the great white thrown judgment at the end of the thousand years on the day of The Lord. We can have Satan bound at the beginning of the thousand years and released again at the end of the thousand years on the day of The Lord. We can have the battle of Armageddon at Christ’s return at the beginning of the day of The Lord, and we can have Satan’s last stand with Gog and Magog at the end of the thousand years on the same day of the Lord. Sense a theme in all of this? The day of The Lord is not limited to one single event. Just as you do not do everything you do in a 24 hour earth day at the same time of the day, so too God will not do everything that is to be done on the day of The Lord in the same moment of that great and terrible day.

That Day begins with the time of wrath, during which the devil is cast down and God uses the antichrist to fulfill a portion of God's wrath.

 

[zeke37]

Actually, this would be incorrect. When people take a limited view of the day of The Lord, they often arrive at seemingly erroneous points they feel they can easily refute. Yet it is setting up a straw man and tearing it down. It is not addressing the actual belief regarding the day of The Lord. The mistake so many make is limiting the day of The Lord to an actual day or a single event. Yet Scripturally, the day of The Lord spans an entire millennium. What this means is that many things will happen on the day of The Lord. So we can have God pour out His wrath on the day of The Lord. We can have Christ defeat the man of sin on the day of The Lord. We can have Christ gather His elect on the day of The Lord. We can have those of the first resurrection live and reign with Christ for a thousand years on the day of The Lord. We can have Christ establish His kingdom on the day of The Lord. We can have all nations beat their swords into plow shares and learn war no more on the day of The Lord. We can have the reestablishment of the whole house of Israel under one king on the day of The Lord.


We can have the great white thrown judgment at the end of the thousand years on the day of The Lord. We can have Satan bound at the beginning of the thousand years and released again at the end of the thousand years on the day of The Lord. We can have the battle of Armageddon at Christ’s return at the beginning of the day of The Lord, and we can have Satan’s last stand with Gog and Magog at the end of the thousand years on the same day of the Lord. Sense a theme in all of this? The day of The Lord is not limited to one single event. Just as you do not do everything you do in a 24 hour earth day at the same time of the day, so too God will not do everything that is to be done on the day of The Lord in the same moment of that great and terrible day.

wonderful answer

 

[zeke37]

I explain it in the OP and I have not seen any response which actually address the Biblical application and Scriptural interpretations asserted. If you care to do so, I'm all ears.

i thought i answered your questions fine....

but OK, back to the OP

 

[zeke37]

I explain it in the OP and I have not seen any response which actually address the Biblical application and Scriptural interpretations asserted. If you care to do so, I'm all ears.

we spent the first 2 pages of this thread in debate...
i thought i had easily proven to you that the time of Isaiah2 was clearly after the end time trib.

honestly, i do not know how you can not see that

and that was but the first point that i wanted to bring to your attention about the OP

Isa2...

but you seemed to ignore me from page 2 on....
i know that the entire chapter of Isaiah2 is clearly about a time after the end time test.

and i really don't see how you can say otherwise

if we cannot resolve the very first scripture set that you gave in the OP, how can we ever even get to the rest


and again, i am not even saying that the 6th seal is not the fulfillment of Joel2

i just want you to admit that Isa2 takes place after the end time test...

if we can agree on that, then we can try to discover the truth in the scriptures


if you deny the timing of Isaia 2 as being post trib,
then we are at a crossroads

 

[NJBeliever]

Actually, this would be incorrect. When people take a limited view of the day of The Lord, they often arrive at seemingly erroneous points they feel they can easily refute. Yet it is setting up a straw man and tearing it down.

First off, thanks for addressing my OP. Secondly, I am not posting a straw man argument. I assert that the Post-trib model states that the Day of The Lord and the Second Coming are the same event. This is true. Were I just making this up, that would be a straw man. So I don't think you're using the term appropriately. Just because I disagree with the post-trib model, does not make my position a "Straw man."

It is not addressing the actual belief regarding the day of The Lord. The mistake so many make is limiting the day of The Lord to an actual day or a single event. Yet Scripturally, the day of The Lord spans an entire millennium.

Now of course I am going to ask: where is your scriptural support for this?? I show a passage that is clearly the Day of The Lord. Not only is it not described as a 1,000 year period, it is signified by certain specific events, all listed in Isaiah Chapter 2. You do not address this nor refute it in any way. And you don't provide any Scripture to support you own position. So how could I possibly come to agreement with you???

What this means is that many things will happen on the day of The Lord. So we can have God pour out His wrath on the day of The Lord. We can have Christ defeat the man of sin on the day of The Lord. We can have Christ gather His elect on the day of The Lord. We can have those of the first resurrection live and reign with Christ for a thousand years on the day of The Lord. We can have Christ establish His kingdom on the day of The Lord. We can have all nations beat their swords into plow shares and learn war no more on the day of The Lord. We can have the reestablishment of the whole house of Israel under one king on the day of The Lord.

Again, where is the support of this??

The day of The Lord is not limited to one single event. Just as you do not do everything you do in a 24 hour earth day at the same time of the day, so too God will not do everything that is to be done on the day of The Lord in the same moment of that great and terrible day.

Again, if you read the OP carefully, I never say the Day of The Lord is a single 24 hour period. I said in all caps, the opening of the 6th Seal is the BEGINNING of the Day of The Lord. There outpouring of God's wrath from that point on (the trumpets and bowls) is the Day of The Lord as well.

So in short, I do not see any refutation to my Biblical application or interpretation. And not only that, you have mis-stated my position and attacked that, which is actually what a straw man really is.

 

[NJBeliever]

w

but you seemed to ignore me from page 2 on....
i know that the entire chapter of Isaiah2 is clearly about a time after the end time test.

and i really don't see how you can say otherwise

if we cannot resolve the very first scripture set that you gave in the OP, how can we ever even get to the rest


and again, i am not even saying that the 6th seal is not the fulfillment of Joel2

i just want you to admit that Isa2 takes place after the end time test...

if we can agree on that, then we can try to discover the truth in the scriptures


if you deny the timing of Isaia 2 as being post trib,
then we are at a crossroads

Of course we're at a crossroads! Lol. We've been ever since I came to this site. Lol. But to be fair, you did most definitely reply to my OP. Where we differ is not so much on rapture models in this thread (which is obvious) but on the reconfiguring of Revelation. There's just no way I am going to say the 6th Seal opening is post-trib. I don't think the Great Trib even starts until after it is opened. And as I have stated in past debates, the Day of The Lord passages in the Old Testament say absolutely nothing about the Coming of the Messiah. Zip. They are all about God's wrath against the Heathen world. And that does not happen at Armageddon. It happens during the trumpets and bowl judgments. Armageddon is just taking out the satanic trinity and their armies. The whole world is judged during the Day of The Lord.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

First off, thanks for addressing my OP. Secondly, I am not posting a straw man argument. I assert that the Post-trib model states that the Day of The Lord and the Second Coming are the same event. This is true. Were I just making this up, that would be a straw man. So I don't think you're using the term appropriately. Just because I disagree with the post-trib model, does not make my position a "Straw man."

The straw man you are creating is in assuming that post-trib believes the day of The Lord is limited to the second coming and therefore cannot account for His wrath, or perhaps I misunderstood your premise. But that is how it read to me. I can’t presume to speak for everyone, but no, it is not limited to this. You are arguing from the standpoint that the day of The Lord from a post-trib point of view cannot include the pouring out of His wrath. Yet an understanding of the judgment and wrath of the day of The Lord refutes this premise. So if the concept of that day is understood, no such conclusions can be drawn. So it renders your argument moot. In other words, that is not what we believe, or at least it is not what I believe. So arguing against something I do not believe is not really making a useful argument.

Now of course I am going to ask: where is your scriptural support for this?? I show a passage that is clearly the Day of The Lord. Not only is it not described as a 1,000 year period, it is signified by certain specific events, all listed in Isaiah Chapter 2. You do not address this nor refute it in any way. And you don't provide any Scripture to support you own position. So how could I possibly come to agreement with you???

First, I don’t disagree with you about what is written in Isaiah. I simply agree with what Peter said, (2Pe 3:8) “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”

Is this an arbitrary concept? In Genesis God told Adam, “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” (Gen 2:17)

Yet how long did Adam live? “And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.” (Gen 5:5)

So clearly Adam did not die in the literal day that he ate of the forbidden fruit. Yet he did die before reaching 1000 years (or as Peter puts it, a day with The Lord).

Now consider the significance of what we read in Revelation, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Rev 20:4)

They live for a thousand years. The significance is that for them the curse has been removed. They will fulfill what Adam’s sin took away. They will live a whole day where the curse of Adam causes all corrupt flesh to die within a day. The broader understanding is that now death has no power over them, and they have eternal life. Whereas through Adam’s sin, death exists and brings a cessation of life. So there is a purpose and significance to saying that they live and reign for a thousand years.

Peter says, “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” (2Pe 3:10)

Does this happen at the second coming? Revelation shows this happening at the end of the thousand years.

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea” (Rev 21:1)

Yet Peter says that this event too is part of the day of The Lord. But according to John it is seen after the great white thrown judgment which happens at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ. How can that be if the day of The Lord is not at least 1000 years long?

Paul tells us in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the day of Christ (or day of The Lord) is heralded by the revealing of the man of sin (ultimately his destruction at His appearing) and the gathering of His elect. Yet we know that this event happens at the second coming of Christ and the beginning of the day of The Lord. Revelation reveals this as well in Chapter 19.

Joel prophesies, “ The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.” (Joe 2:31)

Peter confirms this in Acts 2:20 when he quotes Joel. “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:”

Isaiah tells us, “Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand [the actual Hebrew word here means “near” or close; not that it has actually arrived]; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh [agrees with verse 6 as in the day is approaching but has not yet arrived], cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine [same thing Joel prophesied as happening before the day of The Lord comes]. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.” (Is 13:6-11)

Jesus tells us, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:” (Mat 24:29)

According to the prophet Joel, this event happens before the great and terrible day of The Lord. It also heralds the imminent arrival of that day. So then tying together what Joel prophesies with what Jesus said, we ask ourselves what must be the event that marks the dawn of the day of The Lord? Jesus tells us.

“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Mat 24:30-31)

Is this not exactly what Paul is telling us in 2 Thessalonians 2? He says that the day of Christ (or day of The Lord) cannot come until the falling away happens and the man of sin is revealed. What happens at some point after he is revealed? The Lord consumes him with the brightness of His coming (same advent of the day of The Lord we see everywhere else; not different).

Isaiah also tells us, “And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” (Isa 2:4)

So we see here that the day of The Lord is the day of judgment of the nations. Micah says referring to this same event, “And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” (Mic 4:3)

When does this happen? We read further in Isaiah:

“The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:” (Is 2:11-12)


Now let us consider Isaiah 65.

“There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.” (Isa 65:20)

“No child will die in infancy; everyone will live to a ripe old age. Anyone a hundred years old will be considered young, and to die younger than that will be considered a curse.” (Isa 65:20 CEV)

When does this happen? We read earlier in this same chapter:

“For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.” (Is 65:17)

Wait a minute. How can this be when we read in Revelation, “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” (Rev 21:4)

John says there will be no more death. Yet Isaiah describes people dying but says that anyone dying 100 years of age will be thought of as dying young.

Well first notice that Revelation describes death being removed after the new heavens and new earth are completed. This is completely in agreement with what Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians:

“Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father [the end of the millennium, and the dawn of the rest of eternity]; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power [subjugated all nations, established His rule over all nations]. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” (1 Co 15:24-26)

The last enemy destroyed is death. Revelation tells us that this happens after the completion of making all things new. So then what is Isaiah telling us? How do we reconcile all of this? How can death be removed and yet people still die? We reconcile this by understanding that the process of renewing will happen during the millennial reign. It is during this time that the refreshing is taking place. The process is completed at the end of that day. In other words in Isaiah, God is creating (process) the new heavens and the new earth. In revelation 21, the process is completed, and it has been done. The end is marked by the defeat of the last enemy (signifying the complete removal of death altogether) which Revelations shows happening at the end of the thousand years. That is when we see the second resurrection and the final judgment.

Why say all of this? I say it all to help with the understanding that not everything that happens on the day of The Lord happens at the same time on that day. It is also to show that the Scriptural concept of that day is that it lasts 1000 years. We know this because events which mark the beginning of that day such as the coming of Christ and events which mark the end of that day such as the passing away of the old and the institution of the new heavens and earth all take place on the day of The Lord. Therefore logically the day of The Lord must span the entire time it takes for all of these things to be fulfilled.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

Again, if you read the OP carefully, I never say the Day of The Lord is a single 24 hour period. I said in all caps, the opening of the 6th Seal is the BEGINNING of the Day of The Lord. There outpouring of God's wrath from that point on (the trumpets and bowls) is the Day of The Lord as well.

So in short, I do not see any refutation to my Biblical application or interpretation. And not only that, you have mis-stated my position and attacked that, which is actually what a straw man really is.

Here is what I find interesting. You yourself are stating that you did not say that the day of The Lord is limited to a 24 hour period. Yet you are arguing that understanding that day to be 1000 years is wrong. So then, how long exactly do you think that day is?

 

[zeke37]

Of course we're at a crossroads! Lol. We've been ever since I came to this site. Lol. But to be fair, you did most definitely reply to my OP. Where we differ is not so much on rapture models in this thread (which is obvious) but on the reconfiguring of Revelation. There's just no way I am going to say the 6th Seal opening is post-trib.

and i agree (what if it is opened a long time ago, by Christ)

i am more interested in whether Isa2 is pre/mid or post trib
because as shown at the beginning of this thread
the details of that chapter show post trib,
not pre/mid trib

I don't think the Great Trib even starts until after it is opened.

Rev6 is not linear to the rest of Rev.
as another poster said recently, it is sequential, made up of many visions
but Rev is not one big continuous timeline

iow the events many think are fulfilled in Rev6's 6th seal, like you and Jen,
those events are seen again later in Rev

the church is not removed for the remainder of Revelation

And as I have stated in past debates, the Day of The Lord passages in the Old Testament say absolutely nothing about the Coming of the Messiah.

Zec14 and Isa2 do.
The events described in those 2 chapters tell a post trib wrath of God,
not a whole trib wrath of God

and God's wrath is actually poured out on Babylon, and on those who do not come out of Babylon (confusion)
the tribulation period is NOT the wrath that the "church" is not appointed to.

Zip. They are all about God's wrath against the Heathen world. And that does not happen at Armageddon. It happens during the trumpets and bowl judgments. Armageddon is just taking out the satanic trinity and their armies. The whole world is judged during the Day of The Lord.

the 2 OT prophesies that i mentioned, speak volumes...
the descriptions show that the timing of the Day of the Lord is post trib
when weaponry is turned into farm equipment etc...
and I know that does not happen until Christ returns and sets up shop right here

the Lord's wrath is poured out on the earth,
IMO it happens on the last day of the wrath of Satan,
and begins the wrath of God as Christ is descending

but very plainly, it is written that the wrath/plagues of God
falls on the beasts kingdom, after God has called His children out....

1And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

so, what ever caused men to worship the beast, is not the wrath of God.
the time that man worships the beast is not the wrath of God either,

the wrath of God falls on those who have been bad in the trib
iow, the wrath (of God) is not the trib

1And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

the trib time, is the wrath of her(harlot) fornication...not God's wrath
God's wrath follows tho.

4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.