Hello Christians.

[Girder of Loins]

Oh, I almost forgot: it's possible for higher dimensions to exist. Computers can easily simulate the fourth spacial dimension, and presumably higher ones. String theory postulates ten (yes, I know you hate theories). And if you deny everything that you are even the slightest bit unsure about, you should deny reality. After all, we only interact with the world through our senses, and they can be deceived.

See, this is the post that confuses me. So you say science and all that is factual(and I never said it wasn't), yet you say the very thing science relies on can be false. So how do you get to the point of saying it is true? Or are you somebody who would say that there is no absolute truth?

And to the previous replies, I never meant to say that my God was a "god of gaps." I have faith, which is coupled by facts from science. Now, don't take this the wrong way, but if a theory lines up with God's Word, then I'll believe it. If it doesn't I will be hesitant to accept it. Since evolution is a theory, I will not believe it as I already believe in YHWH. Once my faith in God(which is backed by science) is destroyed, then I will believe in science. But until then, I will not. My arguments against theories are simply a hope that I can plant a seed in your heart so that you may someday be saved. I never meant to mean that all theories are false(although that is the way scientists should look at a theory so no biased evidence floats in).

 

[cRIO]

Ok, first, thanks for not saying that I will be condemned to Hell for eternity. And for being pleasant about this whole debate.

No where in that post did I say that science "and all that" was factual or based on facts (though yes, I would argue that to a certain degree). But yes, the very things that science relies on (empirical data) could be false, as I said. However, this goes for everything we know, including your god. So, while science may not be "true" to "reality", it is as true as we can get it in this reality. As for absolute truth, that depends on your definition of absolute. Time and space aren't absolute (they are relative as Einstein showed), yet at other times they can be considered absolute for all intents and purposes.

Third (or is that second?), a god of gaps is something that fills in where science doesn't have an answer. This seems to be what you are saying:

I come to the conclusion that no other theory makes sense, so I choose God.

You also say

Then I use science to understand how God made the universe work and to understand Him more.

Well, science involves fitting theories to facts, not fitting facts to theories. You say that you don't believe the Theory of Evolution because it does not fit with God, but this is the opposite of science. Science is the process of constantly questioning what is known and seeking truth, not defending an idea until it is completely refuted. Only accepting a theory if it agrees with another is religion.

On a similar note, you agree that scientists should doubt theories so as to evaluate them without bias, but this doesn't seem to be what you do with God.

 

[solarwave]

Since evolution is a theory, I will not believe it as I already believe in YHWH. Once my faith in God(which is backed by science) is destroyed, then I will believe in science. But until then, I will not.

Everything you know is a theory.

Belief in YHWH has nothing to do with evolution, and evening having the Bible as your Holy Book, even thinking it is infallible doesn't prove evolution wrong. You have to understand the beginning of Genesis in a specific way for it to go against Evolution. Unless your saying God wouldn't allow evolution?

Then again its easier to have faith when not considering things like evolution, so maybe it is better for some people that way.

 

[Girder of Loins]

Ok, first, thanks for not saying that I will be condemned to Hell for eternity. And for being pleasant about this whole debate.

No where in that post did I say that science "and all that" was factual or based on facts (though yes, I would argue that to a certain degree). But yes, the very things that science relies on (empirical data) could be false, as I said. However, this goes for everything we know, including your god. So, while science may not be "true" to "reality", it is as true as we can get it in this reality. As for absolute truth, that depends on your definition of absolute. Time and space aren't absolute (they are relative as Einstein showed), yet at other times they can be considered absolute for all intents and purposes.

Third (or is that second?), a god of gaps is something that fills in where science doesn't have an answer. This seems to be what you are saying:
You also say
Well, science involves fitting theories to facts, not fitting facts to theories. You say that you don't believe the Theory of Evolution because it does not fit with God, but this is the opposite of science. Science is the process of constantly questioning what is known and seeking truth, not defending an idea until it is completely refuted. Only accepting a theory if it agrees with another is religion.

On a similar note, you agree that scientists should doubt theories so as to evaluate them without bias, but this doesn't seem to be what you do with God.

First, you're welcome. Not too big on the "Hell is going to swallow you up!" Kind of witnessing.

Second, I don't just base my belief in God to mere facts(which can be false) or opinions. I have seen His power. I and a group of other high schoolers have prayed over somebody with extreme lupus. She has gone to the hospital numerous times, and is always in pain. After that night, for the first time in ten years, she felt warmth. She got her blood tested and for the first time again in ten years, her blood work came back completely clear. Absolutely no lupus. Mere coincidence? Some would say the ecstatic feelings caused her body to heal rapidly and purge it of the lupus. I say God, because I have seen the dead raised. A preacher was preaching, and saw a man who had a repirator. He said to the man,"Get up, take off your repsirator and run." The man stared at him blankly. The preacher then said,"I said run." So the man did this, and stumbled and fell and died. There was a doctor there, and pronounced the man dead. The preacher was furious. Did he doubt God? No. He grabbed that man, shook him, said,"RUN!!!" turned him around and shoved him and that man ran. This man who died from trying, began tor run. Now I don't expect you to believe any of this. To a person who has never felt the presence of God, it seems foolish. I know I would be laughing my butt off if some Christian told me this, but I think you're a bit more mature than that.

Once again, I have come to the conclusion that God is true. Thus, if He is true, then His words are true. If the Bible is God's Word, then that means it is the base for truth. Therefore, I use the Bible as my center for truth. Absolute truth. And I classify absolute truth as a truth that is true for everyone, everywhere, at all times. Morally, Ethically, socially, etc... If it lines up with the Bible, its true. I'm not expecting you to believe this anytime soon, but I hope this message gets to you and does not fall on deaf ears. May you find truth, cRIO.

 

[cRIO]

A preacher was preaching, and saw a man who had a repirator. He said to the man,"Get up, take off your repsirator and run." The man stared at him blankly. The preacher then said,"I said run." So the man did this, and stumbled and fell and died. There was a doctor there, and pronounced the man dead. The preacher was furious. Did he doubt God? No. He grabbed that man, shook him, said,"RUN!!!" turned him around and shoved him and that man ran. This man who died from trying, began tor run.

So you saw this with your own eyes?
You're right, I am skeptical about that event.
Benny Hinn, world famous televangelist, faith-healer, exposed...
Just saying.

Thus, if He is true, then His words are true.

I agree.

If the Bible is God's Word, then that means it is the base for truth.

Okay.

Therefore, I use the Bible as my center for truth. Absolute truth.

I would do the same.

Once again, I have come to the conclusion that God is true.

This is where the problem is. Why do you believe in him? Because of a few scattered miracles and gaps in science? You also claim that you had person experience with him (healing the lupus), and so I can understand that that may have helped. But I must say, I know many people that have been prayed for and have not recovered. Or that have prayed to a different god and recovered.

 

[solarwave]

I say God, because I have seen the dead raised. A preacher was preaching, and saw a man who had a repirator. He said to the man,"Get up, take off your repsirator and run." The man stared at him blankly. The preacher then said,"I said run." So the man did this, and stumbled and fell and died. There was a doctor there, and pronounced the man dead. The preacher was furious. Did he doubt God? No. He grabbed that man, shook him, said,"RUN!!!" turned him around and shoved him and that man ran. This man who died from trying, began tor run.

Very interesting

Seen as in you were there in person? In your church? A normal service or an event? Do you know the repirator man or preacher?

So you saw this with your own eyes?
You're right, I am skeptical about that event.

If he has seen this with his own eyes the only other opinions seem the be that shouting can bring someone back to life, it was an act (apparently very convincing and evil) or Girder of Loins is out right lying. This would mean someone is trying to prove something (Christianity) they don't believe in or they are doing it for money or fame I suppose. Seems alot of work to go to. Hopefully Girder of Loins can clear this up.

On the other hand maybe God healed him...... quite possible.

This is where the problem is. Why do you believe in him? Because of a few scattered miracles and gaps in science? You also claim that you had person experience with him (healing the lupus), and so I can understand that that may have helped. But I must say, I know many people that have been prayed for and have not recovered. Or that have prayed to a different god and recovered.

I would say miracles are a pretty good reason to believe. Lack of healing doesn't disprove the apparent healings, just that we don't understand how it works. Also healing of people from other religions doesn't disprove God in general, only the god of people who exclude the grace of God from Non-Christians.

 

[Girder of Loins]

Well, to clear the confusion about the respirator man. I was at GU, and I heard one of the youth pastors talking about this guy he had seen. I have not seen this miracle happen, and I am sorry, but I was writing fast, not thinking about what I was saying, and made confusion. I am sincerely sorry. However, I do trust this man. Oh, and this dude wasn't Benny Hinn.

To cRIO: Well, the body can heal itself, I'm not denying that. So people who pray to other gods could be healed naturally or by medicine(thank you science for giving us great medicine, I would be dead without it!). Now onto those who have not been healed. This is controversial. But I believe that God has a plan for us. I believe God has given us choices in life, and we are free to choose. When the Bible says God knows the future, I believe God knows of every choice we will come to after every choice we make. He does not know which choice we make(or free will would be abolished). But He does know every choice. He also has a plan. And while there may be two or more choices that still lead you on God's plan(like what to eat for breakfast), the major ones do affect your life(obviously). I am also a believer that it is the choices we make that determine how we die, not when. When is planned by God, how is determined by us(excluding suicide). So in the cases of those who are not healed, God has determined them to die and come home. Those are my beliefs.

To solarwave: I must admit I find it confusing to hear a Christian believe in evolution. While the belief in this won't send you to Hell(or a lot of us are screwed!), I believe we as Christians have let the world infect us and warp us into a worldly state. If the Bible has become tampered with(the Genesis account being metaphorical or myth) then none of the Bible can be considered true, and therefore, I can never rely on what the Bible says is true. For all I know, murdering somebody with an axe might be what God really wants, but the Bible has become tampered and is false. If you cannot take the Bible as 100% literal, then what can you trust? Maybe Jesus never really was alive, and that part was made up. Maybe Noah's Flood was false, and that part was just made up. If you start tearing out parts of the Bible and fitting it to what you want, you then dirty the Bible with your own interpretation. I cannot stress enough over the stupid internet how important this is. If I can pull things out of the Bible as "myth" then my entire belief system(and yours as you say it is) has just crumbled under your feet and is gone. The Bible warns about false teachers, yet I fear you have become entangled with one. I strongly suggest you rethink the conclusions about this, or your religion will crumble entirely in the future, and you will no longer be a Christian(yes, you can lose your salvation).

 

[solarwave]

To solarwave: I must admit I find it confusing to hear a Christian believe in evolution. While the belief in this won't send you to Hell(or a lot of us are screwed!), I believe we as Christians have let the world infect us and warp us into a worldly state. If the Bible has become tampered with(the Genesis account being metaphorical or myth) then none of the Bible can be considered true, and therefore, I can never rely on what the Bible says is true. For all I know, murdering somebody with an axe might be what God really wants, but the Bible has become tampered and is false. If you cannot take the Bible as 100% literal, then what can you trust? Maybe Jesus never really was alive, and that part was made up. Maybe Noah's Flood was false, and that part was just made up. If you start tearing out parts of the Bible and fitting it to what you want, you then dirty the Bible with your own interpretation. I cannot stress enough over the stupid internet how important this is. If I can pull things out of the Bible as "myth" then my entire belief system(and yours as you say it is) has just crumbled under your feet and is gone. The Bible warns about false teachers, yet I fear you have become entangled with one. I strongly suggest you rethink the conclusions about this, or your religion will crumble entirely in the future, and you will no longer be a Christian(yes, you can lose your salvation).

If the ending of our belief system is symbolic does that mean the whole thing is? Revelation is clearly symbolic, but this doesn't mean that Jesus didn't rise from the dead or that there isn't life after death. Revelation can teach us spiritual things, but not physical things, and the same is true of some of Genesis.

Somethings being wrong in a book doesn't mean the whole thing is. Most non-fiction books probably have something wrong in them, including science ones. Reguardless of this there is enough to information to build the modern society we have today, so obviously false or unsure information hasn't kept the truth information from shining through. The same can be said of the Bible.

The Bible is believed because you already believe in God and likely Jesus, not the other way round. In my opinion it seems belief in God and probably Jesus comes first and then following of the Bible comes after.

As for being unsure of the 10 commandments I would reply by saying God gave us a brain. Atheist know not to kill without the Bible. The Bible isn't needed basic moral action it seems.

I also accept I may be wrong, so I did consider what I would have to believe if I was before I replied. I got so far then realised 'its nice and all to believe God made the world in 6 days, but sadly it just didn't happen' the evidence points the other way. Sorry.

I do agree that it is easier in some sense to be a Christian and take the Bible very literally though and there is less confusion when getting your understanding from a higher authority (eg: Bible, Preacher).

 

[cRIO]

I have not seen this miracle happen

Hmmm.

So people who pray to other gods could be healed naturally or by medicine

But does that mean that non-Christians who pray to their god get lucky, and only Christians get healed by God?

But I believe that God has a plan for us.

Well, then you have it both ways, don't you! Person gets better, yay, God cured them. Person dies, that's ok, God had a plan for them.

He does not know which choice we make(or free will would be abolished).

What is free will anyway? God is supposed to be omniscient, right? And if he knows every choice, wouldn't he know all the choices that lead up to a given one?

So in the cases of those who are not healed, God has determined them to die and come home.

Well, that's convenient.

If you cannot take the Bible as 100% literal, then what can you trust?

What you can confirm yourself, if nothing else. Have you read through the Old Testament?

you then dirty the Bible with your own interpretation.

Oh noes! It's English class all over again!

 

[solarwave]

What is free will anyway? God is supposed to be omniscient, right? And if he knows every choice, wouldn't he know all the choices that lead up to a given one?

Are you saying we arn't free because God is omniscient or because past events cause current ones?

 

[Wedjat]

The argument is that since God is omniscient then He knows what decisions one will make. If He knows what someone will do then the outcome is predetermined, so either God is not omniscient (although he can be very much knowing) or humans do not have free will. It's the main argument for predestination. Even if one were to argue that God knows all possible outcomes and it is up to the human to decide, if God can't pick one, then he does not know something and is by definition not omniscient.

 

[cRIO]

Kinda both actually. If God is omniscient, the knows everything that we will do. Even if he isn't, but he knows every choice we will ever make, even if he doesn't know the outcome, he can figure some of it out. For example, if I will have a choice to chop down the tree or not, then later I have a choice to lie or not lie if I chopped it down, I probably chopped down the tree.

 

[Girder of Loins]

To cRIO:
People who pray to God don't get lucky. Its always been in his plan. Weather or not they pray is not the issue. Its God's plan for all of us.

Free Will- the power to choose an option within a multiple-choice dilemna

Yes, I have read most of the OT. What are you driving at? And while you can "trust" what you confirm, but as you said before, evidence can be flawed. So coming from your logic, we should not trust anything, and therefore should not trust evolution. All I can do to trust something 100%(according to your thoughts) is to believe in something that is solid. Something above the physical world(which you say can be seen in a skewed way), that provides a basis. Something that cannot be skewed(although it seems Christianity is being skewed from the world in which I live). That would leave me to at least some from of a god(generic). Because if I trust that this "god" is 100% legit, then I can trust its views on this physical world, allowing me to trust things in this world without fear of "skewage".

To solarwave:
Revelation is real. It was God showing us what the end is. What his plan will lead to(regardless if we all choose His plan in this world). While there are metaphors in Revelation(the lampstands), I am not saying there are no metaphors in the Bible. Daniel has a bunch of metaphors(beasts of the sea) and so does Ezekiel(valley of bones). But these things were real. Ezekiel did actually see these visions, as did Daniel. John was actually swept up into Heaven and shown everything that is recorded. If you make the point that the Creation story is myth, then the Bible becomes myth, and you have no reason to believe in God as He is impersonal and set the world in motion and is no longer in control of this world(watchmaker theory). God wound this universe up and watched it spin out of control.

And I strongly disagree with your statement that the Bible comes second to knowing God. How can you know our God without the special revelation of the Bible? You would be no better than the tribes in Africa, knowing of a god(general revelation), but not knowing our God. The Bible is needed. It is our code of laws. Our thought processes. Our way to live life. Our key to knowing God. When you say that a key piece of knowing God is a myth, then you destroy the legitimacy of the entire freaking Bible! Stop, before you do damage to someone. For does it not say that we are not be stumbling blocks to man? And really, if you want proof of evolution. Show me. Show me evolution today. Show me a species that has changed into another species entirely. Not just a genus, but a species. I don't care about genus's, I care about species. Show me that. I don't care if it is remotely possible(which in a roundabout way it is, but detailed it isn't). Show me that. You better be ready to back up your beliefs, because I am.

 

[cRIO]

Weather or not they pray is not the issue. Its God's plan for all of us.

So then why bother?

Free Will- the power to choose an option within a multiple-choice dilemna

Sure, but if God knows what we will choose…

Yes, I have read most of the OT. What are you driving at?

That God appears as jealous, petty, and arrogant.

So coming from your logic, we should not trust anything, and therefore should not trust evolution.

Nor God's existence. But, as as far as we can tell, this reality/universe makes logical sense (on our scale), we may as well assume that we can trust what we observe by Occam's razor. The thing is, this requires us to observe and then draw conclusions. Why do you believe in God (sorry if I already asked)?

God wound this universe up and watched it spin out of control

.
Or maybe he can control it.

You would be no better than the tribes in Africa, knowing of a god(general revelation), but not knowing our God. The Bible is needed.

And if they were never introduced to the Bible…?

It is our code of laws. Our thought processes. Our way to live life. Our key to knowing God.

According to you.

When you say that a key piece of knowing God is a myth, then you destroy the legitimacy of the entire freaking Bible!

Only the mythical parts. The philosophical parts are usually okay.

Stop, before you do damage to someone.

I could say likewise to you. Maybe Allah is the true God.

And really, if you want proof of evolution. Show me. Show me evolution today. Show me a species that has changed into another species entirely.

Umm, you do realize that the whole point of evolution is that it takes millions of years, right? Thousands at the minimum, and that is considered an extremely fast change. Microevolution you can see though, for example breeding animals.

Not just a genus, but a species

.
A species is a more specific classification that a species. Domain, Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species.

Show me that. You better be ready to back up your beliefs, because I am.

Ok, you do that. The only way for a species to have changed in your lifetime is for you to have lived longer than Adam. Many times longer. I can show you effects, however. The appendix, as people live just fine without it and it seems to have no purpose. Gill sacks that form on human embryos, like on fish embryos, but then disappear. Blind mole rats that have eyes covered by skin. Whales that have hind legs that aren't visible or useful. The list goes on and on.

 

[solarwave]

The argument is that since God is omniscient then He knows what decisions one will make. If He knows what someone will do then the outcome is predetermined, so either God is not omniscient (although he can be very much knowing) or humans do not have free will. It's the main argument for predestination. Even if one were to argue that God knows all possible outcomes and it is up to the human to decide, if God can't pick one, then he does not know something and is by definition not omniscient.

Kinda both actually. If God is omniscient, the knows everything that we will do. Even if he isn't, but he knows every choice we will ever make, even if he doesn't know the outcome, he can figure some of it out. For example, if I will have a choice to chop down the tree or not, then later I have a choice to lie or not lie if I chopped it down, I probably chopped down the tree.

I'm sorry but saying that because God knows something it means it was predestined is dumb. If I go to the future in a time machine, see what you do then come back did I predestine you to do what you did, or did I see what you choose to do?

 

[cRIO]

Build me a time machine and I'll tell you.
But if God knows what will happen, it kinda has to happen.

 

[solarwave]

To solarwave:
Revelation is real. It was God showing us what the end is. What his plan will lead to(regardless if we all choose His plan in this world). While there are metaphors in Revelation(the lampstands), I am not saying there are no metaphors in the Bible. Daniel has a bunch of metaphors(beasts of the sea) and so does Ezekiel(valley of bones). But these things were real. Ezekiel did actually see these visions, as did Daniel. John was actually swept up into Heaven and shown everything that is recorded.

There will be a ten headed dragon in the future? It represents things which different from the literal reading. Even the description of the size of New Jerusalem is metaphorical if you look at the numbers used and the understanding of those numbers in thought back then.

If you make the point that the Creation story is myth, then the Bible becomes myth, and you have no reason to believe in God as He is impersonal and set the world in motion and is no longer in control of this world(watchmaker theory). God wound this universe up and watched it spin out of control.

I don't understand why a non-fiction book becomes fiction if it opens with a fictional statement. It seems to me that you are just saying it to prove me wrong, because there doesn't seem to be a good reason to think it correct. Even if the Bible is a myth, it would be a spiritual myth and so from God, so keeping God personal.

And I strongly disagree with your statement that the Bible comes second to knowing God. How can you know our God without the special revelation of the Bible? You would be no better than the tribes in Africa, knowing of a god(general revelation), but not knowing our God.

Does that mean Abraham didn't know God because he didn't have a Bible or Old Testament? Of course you can't know about Jesus without the Bible, but the Jews knew God well before Jesus.

The Bible is needed. It is our code of laws. Our thought processes. Our way to live life. Our key to knowing God. When you say that a key piece of knowing God is a myth, then you destroy the legitimacy of the entire freaking Bible! Stop, before you do damage to someone. For does it not say that we are not be stumbling blocks to man? And really, if you want proof of evolution. Show me. Show me evolution today. Show me a species that has changed into another species entirely. Not just a genus, but a species. I don't care about genus's, I care about species. Show me that. I don't care if it is remotely possible(which in a roundabout way it is, but detailed it isn't). Show me that. You better be ready to back up your beliefs, because I am.

When I say myth I don't mean it is wrong. I mean the point it is trying to make is spiritual not physical. I don't make people have to agree with me, I accept I am wrong and would rather keep faith rather than agree with me. On the other hand I could say creation does damage to Christianity by making it unscientific.

Whales, etc: Evolution of cetaceans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Girder of Loins]

To cRIO:

God is not petty, arrogant, etc... If you made a creation, then some of that creation then went rampant with STD's and other horrible things, wouldn't you want to protect your creation from it? God was protecting His people(Israelites) from the others(Gentiles). It was not until Jesus dies for all of our sins(Jews and Gentiles alike) that everyone became Gods people. Of course, a Gentile could have become a part of God's people by joining the sacrificial system and abiding by God's laws. So God was not arrogant or petty.

The point I was trying to make is that by your logic, you cannot believe in anything. As such, the only way you can actually believe in something is to switch worldviews. Christianity, Islam, Mormonism, etc... All allow you to believe in soemthing. But coming from your worldview, you cannot believe in it as it is automatically untrue. But then of course you aren't true either. And even if you think, your thoughts can't be true, so you can't even trust your own thoughts or believe in your unblief of belief! Its self-refuting!

To solarwave:

As I stated, they weren't real. They were visions from God which Daniel and Ezekiel did actually have. Sure, they were metaphors. But I am literal when it comes to reading the Bible. If I don't, then it becomes filled with my own bias and discord. What you are doing is putting limits on God. Just because science(which cannot show truth) says something, does that mean that it is true? This goes agianst scientific reasoning! So when somebody tries to force scientific "truth" down your throat, then that "truth" then actually refutes science and refutes itself. God created science, He is not bound to it. He is above science. So when you put His Word to science "truth" you make the entire Bible refute itself with science! Jesus wasn't real! God is false! I go to a famous qoute by Friedrich Niezche,"God is dead and we have killed him." Stop killing Him. He is alive and His word is literal. If His Word isn't literal, how do you know He isn't literal?

By making the Bible a myth, then the being that made the Bible is a myth as the way you came to know God is through a myth, then isn't it logical to assume that the very thing it speaks of is a myth?

Aha! Moses and Abraham knew of God through divine inspiration. By saying that, then you know for a fact that those writings were accurate and were literal. Because if they weren't, then how do you know Abraham or Moses lived? You say we need the Bible to know Jesus, but if we say a part of the bible is untrue, hwo do you know Jesus is real?

In all actuality, I am trying to say this. Daniel's visions were visions. It clearly states that in the Bible. But when it doesn't say that it was a vision or metaphor or parable, then you need to take it literally. If you don't, then everything(weather it says so or not) was a vision or metaphor.

 

[solarwave]

To solarwave:

As I stated, they weren't real. They were visions from God which Daniel and Ezekiel did actually have. Sure, they were metaphors. But I am literal when it comes to reading the Bible.

I accept that there is a difference between visions and where metaphor (in my opinion) is presented as a story.

But I am literal when it comes to reading the Bible. If I don't, then it becomes filled with my own bias and discord.

Even when a group of people take the Bible as literal they still disagree with each other and use their bias in interpretation.

What you are doing is putting limits on God. Just because science(which cannot show truth) says something, does that mean that it is true?

How am I putting limits on God? I am not saying God must work within scientific laws. I just don't say the Bible is God and I say Jesus is the Word of God (which the Bible agrees with) rather than the Bible, though I do think the Bible is inspired. If science says something is true and has good evidence for it then it is likely true at least to some extent. I'm not saying science is above the Bible (and definitely not above God) but that science can help us understand the Bible.

This goes agianst scientific reasoning! So when somebody tries to force scientific "truth" down your throat, then that "truth" then actually refutes science and refutes itself.

I assume you are saying this because science is never certain? Thats true but this uncertainty has given us everything we use today. If I try to convince you that every force has an equal and opposite force, I don't prove myself wrong if I try hard to convince you.

God created science, He is not bound to it. He is above science. So when you put His Word to science "truth" you make the entire Bible refute itself with science! Jesus wasn't real! God is false! I go to a famous qoute by Friedrich Niezche,"God is dead and we have killed him." Stop killing Him. He is alive and His word is literal. If His Word isn't literal, how do you know He isn't literal?

As I said above, God doesn't equal Bible and I am not saying science is above the Bible, but can be used to help us interpret it. Also science has nothing to say about God or Jesus.

By making the Bible a myth, then the being that made the Bible is a myth as the way you came to know God is through a myth, then isn't it logical to assume that the very thing it speaks of is a myth?

I'm not saying the Bible is a myth, and even if it was it wouldn't mean God was because real humans can write myths.

Aha! Moses and Abraham knew of God through divine inspiration. By saying that, then you know for a fact that those writings were accurate and were literal. Because if they weren't, then how do you know Abraham or Moses lived? You say we need the Bible to know Jesus, but if we say a part of the bible is untrue, hwo do you know Jesus is real?

It means I think that Abraham and Moses were real yeah. Every detail about them might not be totally correct (like any history book) but enough to know they knew God. As for Jesus, have you heard the evidence for the resurrection before?

Either way I am not trying to convince you I am right, just that to think the Bible isn't infallible is a valid Christian belief.

 

[cRIO]

But coming from your worldview, you cannot believe in it as it is automatically untrue. But then of course you aren't true either. And even if you think, your thoughts can't be true, so you can't even trust your own thoughts or believe in your unblief of belief! Its self-refuting!

Uhhh... what? What do you mean I "cannot believe in it as it is automatically untrue"? Of course I can, though there is of course uncertainty. But just because I can't necessarily be sure if I am right doesn't mean that I automatically scrap my worldview. After all, it's quite possible that we are all deceived, the sure and unsure alike.

Stop killing Him.

How does believing a different thing kill him? Maybe solarwave is right, and you aren't. Or vice-versa.