My Poe Challenge

[Nathan Poe]

"Statistically how?" "I would disagree with that assertion." "Of course, this is just your opinion."

When I said statistically, I actually meant it
The stats I use here are from a paper I got about a year ago, so the numbers may have changed by 1 or 2 since then, but unless there have been some major findings this year, they should be good enough.

"Historians evaluate the textual reliability of ancient literature according to two standards: (1) what the time interval is between the original and the earliest copy; and (2) how many manuscripts are available"

For anyone who doesn't understand the reasoning behind this, the time interval is important because the longer the interval between the original writing and the first copy we have, the more time there was for mistakes and for details to be changed. The number of manuscripts is also a good indicator of reliability because if someone wrote a history book that everyone
knew was fake, nobody would have made copies.

Except it's the height of foolishness to read the Gospels as history -- they were originally part of an intepretive oral tradition, never intended to be used as "history."

I can post the whole chart if I have to, but for the sake of saving time, I will just list a few key stats. According to the chart, one of the best (historically reliable) works of ancient literature is Homer's Iliad. We have 643 manuscipts, the earliest of which was written a mere 400 years after the Iliad.

So The Illiad is historically accurate? Including every last manipulation and machination of the Greek Pantheon?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Jesus isn't a Confucian -- that is, He didn't just sit under a tree and think up stuff to say.

No, he used fictional scenarios to illustrate moral truths to a crowd who wouldn't get it any other way -- or in your case, still isn't getting it.

Just like the book of Proverbs, where the [mundane] authors (Solomon, King Lemuel, et al.) actually experienced the advice they gave, Jesus did the same.

So Jesus is no different? no better?

Yes, Jesus could create His own parable -- (like when He cursed the fig tree) -- but He used events that He, Himself actually witnessed.

Only because you say so -- thus dragging Jesus down to your level, where you need him to be.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Was he hiding behind a rock when the man travelling to Jericho was robbed and left for dead, and waited for the Samaritan just so he could tell a story about it later?

Pretty morally reprehensible behavior for a supposed "messiah."

 

[Supreme]

Jesus isn't a Confucian -- that is, He didn't just sit under a tree and think up stuff to say.

Just like the book of Proverbs, where the [mundane] authors (Solomon, King Lemuel, et al.) actually experienced the advice they gave, Jesus did the same.

Yes, Jesus could create His own parable -- (like when He cursed the fig tree) -- but He used events that He, Himself actually witnessed.

He's the Son of God- I don't think it'd take Him much more than a milisecond to come up with a morally viable parable. Plus, how could He have 'witnessed' events like the Prodigal Son? Or in the case of the Good Samaritan, why wouldn't Jesus have done something to help the man instead of waiting for a passer by? Or did He fear that'd 'ruin' His parable?

Your logic makes no sense.

 

[AV1611VET]

He's the Son of God- I don't think it'd take Him much more than a milisecond to come up with a morally viable parable. Plus, how could He have 'witnessed' events like the Prodigal Son? Or in the case of the Good Samaritan, why wouldn't Jesus have done something to help the man instead of waiting for a passer by? Or did He fear that'd 'ruin' His parable?

Your logic makes no sense.

The Samaritan event was probably witnessed by Jesus as a young Boy.

They say that Jesus' life as a youngster is not recorded in the Scriptures, but I somewhat disagree.

 

[Belk]

The Samaritan event was probably witnessed by Jesus as a young Boy.

They say that Jesus' life as a youngster is not recorded in the Scriptures, but I somewhat disagree.

Or maybe being God he created them ex nihilo specificly so he could have a story to tell.

 

[AV1611VET]

Or maybe being God he created them ex nihilo specificly so he could have a story to tell.

Like I said, He wasn't a Confucian.

 

[Belk]

Like I said, He wasn't a Confucian.

Yes, and we all believe that you are so knowledgeable about God that you can speak with authority on his habits and experiences.

 

[Nathan Poe]

The Samaritan event was probably witnessed by Jesus as a young Boy.

They say that Jesus' life as a youngster is not recorded in the Scriptures, but I somewhat disagree.

Now you're just making stuff up, AV -- Are you that desperate to maintain this illusion of yourself an someone with knowledge?

 

[Supreme]

The Samaritan event was probably witnessed by Jesus as a young Boy.

They say that Jesus' life as a youngster is not recorded in the Scriptures, but I somewhat disagree.

Nonsense. Pure nonsense. Nothing more, nothing less. Why is it so hard for you to accept that Jesus could communicate morality in parables? Why instead do you choose to believe that the things that happened in the parables were actual events that Jesus witnessed? How could He have witnessed the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant- are you going to tell us you believe, with the usual lack of evidence, that Jesus once worked in a king's palace and witnessed a king with his unforgiving servant? Or the Parable of the Tenants in the Vineyard- do you think Jesus owned a vineyard as a child?

You're the first person I've ever encountered with this twisted and fundamentally erroneous view of Jesus' parables...

 

[AV1611VET]

Now you're just making stuff up, AV --

I am, huh?

Before we go any farther, it’s interesting to note that this parable mirrors actual events familiar to those living in and around Jericho. Archelaus (Matthew 2:22), the son of Herod the Great (Matthew 2:1-19), went to Rome to ask that his father’s kingdom be restored to him, as it had been divided between Archelaus and his brother Herod Antipas. The kingdom was not restored to its original size until several years later, during the reign of Herod Agrippa II (Acts 25 and 26). Though there are obvious double meanings here (the spiritual ones, I’ll explain in a minute), Jesus describes in the parable what actually took place. While Archelaus went to Rome, the citizens sent an embassy to Augustus Caesar promising open rebellion against Rome if Archelaus got what he wanted (verse 14). Rome, stretched to the limit of its ability to govern the lands it had previously conquered, began the process of replacing Archelaus, who did everything he could to exact revenge on the people who rejected him before he was eventually deposed (verse 27).

SOURCE

 

[AV1611VET]

Nonsense. Pure nonsense. Nothing more, nothing less. Why is it so hard for you to accept that Jesus could communicate morality in parables?

I am not denying Jesus spoke in parables -- I am saying the parables are real, not fictitious.

Parable: A simple story illustrating a moral or religious lesson.

You're the first person I've ever encountered with this twisted and fundamentally erroneous view of Jesus' parables...

Read my last post, please.

Then maybe you need to get out more?

But until you do, don't lay your ignorance at my feet and expect me to agree -- okay?

 

[Supreme]

I am not denying Jesus spoke in parables -- I am saying the parables are real, not fictitious.

Parable: A simple story illustrating a moral or religious lesson.

Read my last post, please.

Then maybe you need to get out more?

But until you do, don't lay your ignorance at my feet and expect me to agree -- okay?

You're suggesting that Jesus wasn't teaching the words of God, but rather recounting His previous life experiences. Don't you realise that Jesus wasn't interested in giving others His own autobiography? Of course, that's inane- why Jesus would have encountered a king sending his unforgiving servant away or how Jesus ever owned a farm and hired workers for a single day is beyond anyone with a basic understanding of Jesus' life and teachings.

You also seem to undermine Jesus' status in Christianity- He's the Son of an omniscient God. He doesn't need to draw on His experiences for inspiration. Why would He?

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm not going to spend an inordinately long length of time with you on this, Supreme; but for the record, I'll parse your post and let the chips fall where they may.

You're suggesting that Jesus wasn't teaching the words of God, but rather recounting His previous life experiences.

He can't do both?

Don't you realise that Jesus wasn't interested in giving others His own autobiography?

No, I don't realize that -- especially in view of such verses as:

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

The entire Bible is His Autobiography.

Of course, that's inane- why Jesus would have encountered a king sending his unforgiving servant away or how Jesus ever owned a farm and hired workers for a single day is beyond anyone with a basic understanding of Jesus' life and teachings.

Believe me -- Jesus encountered more kings in the Old Testament than you'll ever know.

And setting kings aside, Who do you think Abraham tithed to, or Who do you think Jacob physically wrestled?

You also seem to undermine Jesus' status in Christianity-

Either that, or you do.

You're unwillingness to associate Jesus in the Old Testament is what is confusing you -- (although your word choices -- [like 'inane'] -- seems to tell me your emotions are speaking, not your education).

He's the Son of an omniscient God.

Ya -- I read that in His Autobiography.

He doesn't need to draw on His experiences for inspiration.

Who said He did?

He didn't need to walk on water either, did He?

But He did it anyway, didn't He?

Why would He?

That was His style?

 

[Nathan Poe]

I am, huh?

SOURCE

So Jesus went to Rome and witnessed all this himself, eh, AV?

Or did you forget that that's what you were claiming?

 

[Nathan Poe]

You're suggesting that Jesus wasn't teaching the words of God, but rather recounting His previous life experiences. Don't you realise that Jesus wasn't interested in giving others His own autobiography? Of course, that's inane- why Jesus would have encountered a king sending his unforgiving servant away or how Jesus ever owned a farm and hired workers for a single day is beyond anyone with a basic understanding of Jesus' life and teachings.

Most literalists -- like anyone else who makes God in their own image -- assume that Jesus was a self-centered as they are.

Consider AV's last response -- he assumes that we're laying things at his feet.

 

[AV1611VET]

So Jesus went to Rome and witnessed all this himself, eh, AV?

-- What?

Or did you forget that that's what you were claiming?

Link please?

 

[Nathan Poe]

The entire Bible is His Autobiography.

I guess the Jews were just supporting characters.

Believe me -- Jesus encountered more kings in the Old Testament than you'll ever know.

Surprising, considering his Earthly birth was long after those Kings went to dust.

Of course, if you're going to claim that Jesus was present during Old Testament events, I would expect him to recount them without error -- which he did not do.

And setting kings aside, Who do you think Abraham tithed to, or Who do you think Jacob physically wrestled?

Angels, if the Bible is to be believed.

Although, it would be interesting if Jesus was the one who Jacob wrestled with -- which would mean he lost to a low blow.

 

[AV1611VET]

Surprising, considering his Earthly birth was long after those Kings went to dust.

Surprising to whom?

Do you know the difference between the Christophanies and His First Advent?

 

[Nathan Poe]

-- What?

Link please?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7520337-6/#post56435105

Yes, Jesus could create His own parable -- (like when He cursed the fig tree) -- but He used events that He, Himself actually witnessed.

You really need to pay more attention to your own blather, AV.