Tyndale and defying the Pope

[razeontherock]

Bumping, just because it HAS to be done!!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The Two Swords doctrine is what happened.It's in the Bull titled "Unam Sanctum".

The Bull lays down dogmatic propositions on the unity of the Catholic Church, the necessity of belonging to it for eternal salvation, the position of the pope as supreme head of the Church,

Hmm . me thinks Jesus is the supreme head of the church . hmm . perhaps the pope was merely speaking of himself when he said the church cannot have two heads like a monster . that is so true . Jesus is the head . not the pope .

but since Peter did pick up a sword . the advice Jesus said to Peter when he used it applies:

put that sword away, those who live by the sword die by the sword .

though this may make sense .. also the spontaneously invented proverb "there is no reasoning with a knife wielding maniac" would apply in this case .

i have a hunch if all the governments fell tomorrow the next pope would call to arms also .

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Bumping, just because it HAS to be done!!

T'aint over till da fatz ladee singz

 

[razeontherock]

Seems we should all be rather adept at reasoning with knife wielding maniacs

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Seems we should all be rather adept at reasoning with knife wielding maniacs

oh come on! are we really that bad?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I am still wondering why 4 posters labeled W. Tyndale a heretic.
From what I read on this site, it appears to be more about his translation of the Bible and perhaps 1 reson that he was barbecued was it was thru his knowledge of the greek that led him to be at odds with the Papal authorities of Rome.
What ya think?

William Tyndale - Heretical Blasphemer?

So what had Tyndale done in his translation that was so heretical? According to David Daniell, Tyndale had translated the Greek word for 'elder' as 'elder' instead of 'priest', he had translated the Greek word for 'congregation' as 'congregation' instead of 'church', the Greek word for 'repentance' as 'repentance' instead of 'penance' etc. Why were such differences important to the church? The Roman Church has priests, not elders. A congregation implies a locally autonomous group of believers guided by the Holy Spirit and not a hierarchical unified church subject to a Pope.

* Today some Catholics will try to blame these persecutions on villainous secular authorities. Please read the article

Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica on Heresy and Heretics. As you will see, it was common practice, and Roman Catholic teaching, for "heretics" to be turned over to secular authorities for execution. This was nothing more than a transparent and quite unsuccessful attempt to keep the blood off the hands of the Church. There is biblical precedent for civil authorities being pressured into carrying out executions for the church:

 

[bbbbbbb]

T'aint over till da fatz ladee singz

How do you know my sister-in-law?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

How do you know my sister-in-law?

Just a wild guess

 

[Basil the Great]

Was Tyndale the heretic whose bones were ordered dug up and dispersed or were those the bones of another heretic that apparently deserved being burned alive?

 

[Basil the Great]

I am still wondering why 4 posters labeled W. Tyndale a heretic.
From what I read on this site, it appears to be more about his translation of the Bible and perhaps 1 reson that he was barbecued was it was thru his knowledge of the greek that led him to be at odds with the Papal authorities of Rome.
What ya think?

William Tyndale - Heretical Blasphemer?

So what had Tyndale done in his translation that was so heretical? According to David Daniell, Tyndale had translated the Greek word for 'elder' as 'elder' instead of 'priest', he had translated the Greek word for 'congregation' as 'congregation' instead of 'church', the Greek word for 'repentance' as 'repentance' instead of 'penance' etc. Why were such differences important to the church? The Roman Church has priests, not elders. A congregation implies a locally autonomous group of believers guided by the Holy Spirit and not a hierarchical unified church subject to a Pope.

* Today some Catholics will try to blame these persecutions on villainous secular authorities. Please read the article

Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica on Heresy and Heretics. As you will see, it was common practice, and Roman Catholic teaching, for "heretics" to be turned over to secular authorities for execution. This was nothing more than a transparent and quite unsuccessful attempt to keep the blood off the hands of the Church. There is biblical precedent for civil authorities being pressured into carrying out executions for the church:

Yes, the age-old Church admonition was handed down from Apostolic times was that the Church was to abstain from the shedding of blood. Technically speaking, the Church did abide by this command and turned the heretics over to the civil authorities for punishment. However, a careful reading of the Catholic Encyclopedia's treatise on the Holy Inquisition reveals a most startling fact. A bare minimum of 5 Popes and probably more, mandated that the civil authorities impose the required punishment for those found guilty of heresy, under pain of excommunication. Now the Church knew full well that the penalty for heresy was burning at the stake. It was also fully believed in the Middle Ages that if anyone died while in a state of excommunication, they would go to Hell. Hence, for the civil authorities to refuse to burn the heretics would have put their eternal souls in jeopardy. To say that the Church did not kill heretics is true, but it certainly compelled the State to put the heretics to death.

The Church claimed back then, and still does now, to have infallible teaching authority. The Church could have issued a document which would taught that the death penalty for heresy was against the will of God and a grave sin. However, not only did the Church fail to protect the lives of heretics and even more so the poor women accused of witchcraft with her infallible teaching power, but the Church actually taught in detailing the errors of Martin Luther that the burning of heretics was in accord with the will of the Holy Spirit.

I am speechless as to how the leaders of Christendom's largest body could have supported the death penalty for about six hundred years, for Christians who believed and/or taught things that were contrary to the established faith. Such a history is NOT a stain against Catholicism.... as some will claim, no, no, no! It is a mark against all of Christianity! For those of you who are Eastern Orthodox, where were your leaders for 600 years while heretics bere being killed? How many of your leaders spoke out against what was happening in the West? For those of you who are Protestants, your ancestral leaders burned more women at the stake for being witches than the RCC. While we are at it, look how many men have been found innocent in recent years who have been on death row, thanks to DNA. Just how many of you here refuse to believe that thousands of innocent people have been put to death in Christian nations in the last 200 years, since the last man was executed in Spain during the Inquisition, for all kinds of various crimes, because Catholic and Orthodox and Protestant leaders failed to condemn the death penalty?

Yes, the Inquisition and it's torture and mandated executions is a blight against all of Christendom, but so has been the continued use of the death penalty since the end of the Inquisition. Thanks to John Paul II, at least the Catholic Church has changed it's teaching on the death penalty a great deal, though not completely. It is sad that so many Christians, mostly in the United States, worship a man that lived 2,000 years ago who was tortured and then executed and yet so many of these same Christians still justify either the use of torture and/or the execution of criminals.

 

[laconicstudent]

For those of you who are Eastern Orthodox, where were your leaders for 600 years while heretics bere being killed? How many of your leaders spoke out against what was happening in the West?

They were hundreds of miles away living as second-class citizens under Muslim rule without modern telecommunications, plus a language barrier.

Your complaint is rather funny at best.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

They were hundreds of miles away living as second-class citizens under Muslim rule without modern telecommunications, plus a language barrier.

Your complaint is rather funny at best.

Howdy.
So what would your vote/view of Tyndale be?

 

[laconicstudent]

Howdy.
So what would your vote/view of Tyndale be?

He's a reformer.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

He's a reformer.

Um, we know that already

 

[laconicstudent]

Um, we know that already

Then obviously your views on Tyndale are more developed then my own.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Then obviously your views on Tyndale are more developed then my own.

Probably more so than on Luther and Calvin

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Was Tyndale the heretic whose bones were ordered dug up and dispersed or were those the bones of another heretic that apparently deserved being burned alive?

can anyone deserve being burned alive?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Was Tyndale the heretic whose bones were ordered dug up and dispersed or were those the bones of another heretic that apparently deserved being burned alive?

I think it was Wycliffe

http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/

......... They were translated out of the Latin Vulgate, which was the only source text available to Wycliffe.
The Pope was so infuriated by his teachings and his translation of the Bible into English, that 44 years after Wycliffe had died, he ordered the bones to be dug-up, crushed, and scattered in the river!........

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

can anyone deserve being burned alive?

Tis a horrible death indeed

http://www.christianforums.com/t6486531/
That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Tis a horrible death indeed

http://www.christianforums.com/t6486531/
That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.

i am reminded of when Jesus said to his disciples "you don't know what spirit you are of" (luke was it?)