A question about "Soul Sleep"

[DaRev]

Well, according to my theory, my soul would weigh about 3 lbs. So, if the souls measured by the good doctor only weighed 0.75 oz ...

And would those who are saved weigh more than those who aren't?

What I've said so far isn't that unique. There are others like myself who think the soul is material. It's where you go from there. I would say people have a soul, but not a spirit. Only God has a Spirit. And it is the indwelling of the Spirit that produces the saving faith. Those who do not have the Spirit simply cannot understand the Christian faith. So, at death the Spirit does depart (but that isn't measureable). What that means is that the person ceases to exist - except for the memory the Spirit has of you. We then become totally dependent on God for our resurrection because nothing of us continues. Dust we are, and to dust we return.

From our perspective, however, the transformation is instantaneous. Since we didn't exist from the moment of our death until we are resurrected, to us it feels as if everything happened instantaneously - in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye.

Rather amusing theory you have there.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

The word "sleep" in these passages, especially as used by Paul, indicates the temporary nature of physical death. It is figurative language.

I agree. That is why Jesus said that Lazarus was sleeping. His death was temporary. It is an expression for death.

Scripture, in the proper context, does not support the notion that the soul "sleeps" but rather that the soul is at rest with the Lord.

Where does the scripture show that the soul is at rest with the Lord? It only says that at death the spirit returns to God.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Also, the use of the word "death" must also be taken in context. The word "death" means "seperation". When the Scriptures speak of death in terms of eternity, it is referring to the eternal seperation from God, also known as "spiritual death".

The word death does not mean separation but it of course implies separation. Eternal separation from God is obvious when you are eternally dead.

Thus also, when the Scriptures speak of "eternal life" it is referring to living for eternity in the presence of God in His Kingdom.

No. Eternal life is eternal life. Only someone who has been saved and given the gift of God can have eternal life. Eternal life is not for the wicked. What you are saying (correct me if I am wrong), is that the wicked do not die physically but are eternally separated from God and the saved are eternally in the presence of God. Does the wicked ever die as in cease to exist, in your opinion?

 

[Resha Caner]

Rather amusing theory you have there.

I could go on for some time more, but people usually get bored with listening to me before I'm even close to the end.

When my pastor answered me by handing me Sasse's book, my reaction was: Sigh, OK, I'll read it. I expected it to refute everything I was saying. But it didn't. He agreed with me on some key points (or should I say I agreed with him), and then pointed out the areas where scripture is silent and how certain traditions of the church have no real basis. As I recall, he even did a bit of speculating that matched mine, but that could just be wishful thinking on my part - I'd have to look at them again.

 

[DaRev]

Where does the scripture show that the soul is at rest with the Lord? It only says that at death the spirit returns to God.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

I gave an example from Revelation earlier.

The word death does not mean separation but it of course implies separation. Eternal separation from God is obvious when you are eternally dead.

No. Eternal life is eternal life. Only someone who has been saved and given the gift of God can have eternal life. Eternal life is not for the wicked. What you are saying (correct me if I am wrong), is that the wicked do not die physically but are eternally separated from God and the saved are eternally in the presence of God. Does the wicked ever die as in cease to exist, in your opinion?

When one dies, he does not cease to exist. The one who dies in Christ goes to be with the Lord for eternity. The one who dies outside of the faith goes on to eternal torment. The parable in Luke 16 gives a picture of the eternal torment of the rich man who died in his sin. Revelation 14 speaks of the "smoke of their eternal torment".

 

[PROPHECYKID]

I gave an example from Revelation earlier.



When one dies, he does not cease to exist. The one who dies in Christ goes to be with the Lord for eternity. The one who dies outside of the faith goes on to eternal torment. The parable in Luke 16 gives a picture of the eternal torment of the rich man who died in his sin. Revelation 14 speaks of the "smoke of their eternal torment".

And the book of Jude talks about the Eternal fires of Sodom and Gomorrah. And the Lord told David he would be king over Israel forever. Is David still King? Are the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? You must have eternal life to be eternally tormented. Eternal life is only promised to the save. Show me in Revelation 21 and 22, after the second death where the wicked are ever seen again. Don't fall for the same lie of the devil who told Eve that they shall not surely die. God says second death not eternal life in separation from God. Psalms 37: 20 says that the wicked shall perish and into smoke they shall consume away. Malachi 4:1 tells us that the wicked shall be burnt up.

Those who put on immortality at the resurrection are the dead in Christ according to I Cor 15. The wicked shall not put on immortality. It is then impossible for a mortal man to be tormented forever, he must die. Eternal torment goes against the second death. After the second death God recreates the heaven and earth so if the wicked must burn forever, then how does he recreate the world and have the lake of fire still burning?

 

[seajoy]

Oh, good grief. Guests can ask questions..........

 

[ThePresbyteers]

Is it possible to support soul sleep and non-soul sleep at the same time? If God created "TIME" to keep everything from happening at once, then we must view death the best we can on Planet Earth during our time.

 

[DaRev]

And the book of Jude talks about the Eternal fires of Sodom and Gomorrah. And the Lord told David he would be king over Israel forever. Is David still King? Are the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? You must have eternal life to be eternally tormented. Eternal life is only promised to the save. Show me in Revelation 21 and 22, after the second death where the wicked are ever seen again. Don't fall for the same lie of the devil who told Eve that they shall not surely die. God says second death not eternal life in separation from God. Psalms 37: 20 says that the wicked shall perish and into smoke they shall consume away. Malachi 4:1 tells us that the wicked shall be burnt up.

Those who put on immortality at the resurrection are the dead in Christ according to I Cor 15. The wicked shall not put on immortality. It is then impossible for a mortal man to be tormented forever, he must die. Eternal torment goes against the second death. After the second death God recreates the heaven and earth so if the wicked must burn forever, then how does he recreate the world and have the lake of fire still burning?

As I said before, eternal death means eternal seperation from God. It does not mean anihilation. The Scriptures speak in numerous places of eternal torment and eternal fire. Those who are damned consciously suffer eternally.

Matthew 18:8 (ESV)
And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.

Matthew 25:46 (ESV)
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

John 3:36 (ESV)
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

2 Thes. 1:9 (ESV)
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Jude 1:12-13 (ESV)
These are blemishes on your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, looking after themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; [13] wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

Rev. 14:11 (ESV)
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

 

[Radiata]

I wrote a whole paper on this subject. The teacher wanted it shorter so I had to cut out some material. Anyway, I'm surprised that no one is speaking about Danial 12:

But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

We see a clear existence of a sleep state. And that the time would come in the future where they would be released from their graves to either God’s side, or the way of destruction.

 

[Resha Caner]

It's not the "sleep" word that is interesting to me, but rather than they'll be sleeping "in the dust."

 

[Radiata]

It's not the "sleep" word that is interesting to me, but rather than they'll be sleeping "in the dust."

Keep in mind that this Word was given to Daniel before Jesus came. I have my own belief that the Lutheran church doesn't sanction, but part of it says that everyone who died before Christ went to sheol. (My paper details this.) And Jesus also descended to sheol when he died.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (New International Version)

8 This is why it[a] says:

“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”

9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)


Now if you want to say that this passage means that Jesus descended to earth from heaven and not all the way to sheol/hades, that's up to you. But know that it is also supported in the Apostle's Creed.

 

[porterross]

I wrote a whole paper on this subject. The teacher wanted it shorter so I had to cut out some material. Anyway, I'm surprised that no one is speaking about Danial 12:

But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

We see a clear existence of a sleep state. And that the time would come in the future where they would be released from their graves to either God’s side, or the way of destruction.

I take that to mean our physical bodies, not our souls, which can exist separately. Our bodies, which come from the dust, will remain as dust until resurrected when Christ returns. Our souls will be with Christ as He promised the thief on the cross.

Luke 23:43

And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

Do you honestly see the two passages in opposition to one another?

 

[Resha Caner]

Keep in mind that this Word was given to Daniel before Jesus came. I have my own belief that the Lutheran church doesn't sanction, but part of it says that everyone who died before Christ went to sheol. (My paper details this.) And Jesus also descended to sheol when he died.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (New International Version)

8 This is why it[a] says:

“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”

9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)


Now if you want to say that this passage means that Jesus descended to earth from heaven and not all the way to sheol/hades, that's up to you. But know that it is also supported in the Apostle's Creed.

Yes, Jesus' descent is attested to in scripture, but the meaning of it is a bit obscure. I don't think the time of Jesus' incarnation has anything to do with the state of people after death. How do you deal with Abraham's faith in the promise as explained in Hebrews? And the fact that Jesus places him in "heaven" before his own resurrection (Lazarus & the rich man)? Or do you make hay from the fact (as I do) that the parable says he went to Abraham's side rather than saying he went to heaven?

 

[Radiata]

Luke 23:43 is always brought up.

“43Jesus answered him, ‘I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.’"

Jesus says to a man who is going to die with Him on the same day that they will be in paradise together. I thought about this for a long time. This one just didn’t seem to make any sense seeing as paradise can only logically be attributed to heaven or the new earth, both of which were not scripturally sound to be considered an answer. However, it was another controversial passage that gave me a possible answer. Luke 16:19-26 says:

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus...[bless and do not curse]22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham… I am in agony in this fire.' 25"But Abraham replied… he (Lazarus) is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

The word used in verse 23 is Hades (Hebrew, sheol), thus this passage still agrees with the primary thesis that people sit in the earth and wait for the coming of the Lord. However, we see Hades divided. On one side, we see Abraham, the father of the Jewish people. And on the other side is suffering and torment. Is this the paradise that Jesus spoke of? And is there suffering in Hades? Another possible interpretation could be that Jesus was making some sort of exception to the rule. Twice before, it says that before death even came to these people, Enoch and Elijah were taken into heaven without dying. (Hebrews 11:5 and 2 Kings 2:11-12) Even though these things may be possible interpretations of what happened, it is against my nature to assume something that isn’t specifically expressed.

 

[Resha Caner]

Do you honestly see the two passages in opposition to one another?

It's the "today" part of Jesus' statement that makes no sense to me within the context of the way most people envision the soul - this idea that we continue to exist.

I can easily agree with DaRev that souls are "resting in the Lord" (as a euphimistic expression) and adhere to my original idea that all such a statement means is that we exist only as part of God's "memory" until the resurrection - that we no longer have a willful existence apart from him as we do here on earth. But that separate existence (physically separate, not spiritually separate) will be restored at the resurrection.

 

[DaRev]

Eisegesis is all over the place here. It's making my head swim.

Please DON'T read things into the texts that simply are not there. It will alleviate the confusion. Scripture must be taken in the context of the whole. So much of what I am reading here contradicts that. There is great danger in taking verses out of context.

 

[Resha Caner]

The word used in verse 23 is Hades (Hebrew, sheol), thus this passage still agrees with the primary thesis that people sit in the earth and wait for the coming of the Lord. However, we see Hades divided. On one side, we see Abraham, the father of the Jewish people. And on the other side is suffering and torment.

I guess you do try to make some hay from that. But I don't buy it. Sheol is now divided into two parts - one place where people suffer (but it's not hell) and one place where people are happy (but it's not heaven). That's a bit too much like purgatory for me. I take the "gathered to their father" as meaning they returned to dust - end of story. The parable then becomes a figurative example of the fact that someone who has turned to dust can't come back to warn his brothers - they'll need to read the Word and find what they need there.

 

[Resha Caner]

Eisegesis is all over the place here. It's making my head swim.

I'll adhere to your request, Rev. But let me say one last thing. As I said at the beginning of this discussion, I've learned to love the LCMS position on this. God has used scripture to tell us what is important. We don't need any more than that.

So, I make no claim that my speculation is correct. It is, for me, an enjoyable way to explore the depths of God. Some of it may be correct. Most of it is likely wrong.

But there are many, like myself, who take a long time to accept that. So, to have someone shut off the conversation appears as a dodge. It frustrates the situation rather than aiding it. At the same time, I realize this speculation could also cause someone to stumble. If that happened, it would sadden me. So how do I split that hair? How do I talk with those who, like myself, like to speculate, and draw them to that understanding that we simply can't know absolutely about the areas where scripture is silent - while at the same time not harming those for whom these discussions are frightening?

I don't have an answer for that. But I will be quiet for now.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

As I said before, eternal death means eternal seperation from God. It does not mean anihilation. The Scriptures speak in numerous places of eternal torment and eternal fire. Those who are damned consciously suffer eternally.

Matthew 18:8 (ESV)
And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.

Matthew 25:46 (ESV)
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

John 3:36 (ESV)
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

2 Thes. 1:9 (ESV)
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Jude 1:12-13 (ESV)
These are blemishes on your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, looking after themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; [13] wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

Rev. 14:11 (ESV)
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

You quoting the text to support your point does not make the other scriptures which do not support your point irrelevant. What we should seek to do is harmonize scripture and not have a bible text battle.

As I told you before, the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah was said in Jude to be eternal fires.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Notice also that the Sodom and Gomorrah experience is set forth as an example. Those folks suffered the vengeance of Eternal Fire in Sodom and Gomorrah. It means that the lost will also suffer vengeance of Eternal Fire like Sodom and Gomorrah. We know however that the fired of Sodom and Gomorrah are no longer burning. So we need to ask ourselves, why is it described as eternal fire. Also those folks must have eternal life to have suffered and suffering eternal fire.

 

[Studeclunker]

easy does it Kiddo! Please keep in mind you are a guest in this forum. You are in close proximity of a violation of the forum rules as you are not Lutheran. Questions may be posted, but debate, on your part anyway, is strictly verboten.

Since you attend a Seventh Day Adventist Church, you will naturally view the scriptures differently than we do (yes I checked your profile). That makes neither you nor us wrong in our own venues. However, we must adhere to our doctrines and theologies or risk hypocracy. You are not allowed, in another faith's sub-forum to challenge that faith's doctrines as you just came very close to doing. If you would like to promote your faith's beliefs in this area, may I suggest opening a thread in the Anabaptist forum? Some of us visit there on a regular basis. One just doesn't often hear from us.

Your input is welcome and has been interesting. Just please remember, comments and questions are welcome. Debate is not allowed for non-Lutherans (gosh, don't Lutherans argue enough amoungst themselves?).