A question about "Soul Sleep"

[WildStrawberry]

So, sometime back (probably in the dark ages...I'm not sure) DaRev made mention of a concept of "Soul Sleep" I looked but couldn't find the original statement but this concept has been on my mind for AGES.

So, what IS "soul sleep" anyway? Where is it mentioned in the Bible? How is it a Lutheran belief? Do the Confessions talk about it? If so, where?

I'd really like to know what it's all about. From my understanding, when we die we are IMMEDIATELY judged and given over to Heaven or Hell. Whether that means that Judgment Day is somehow fast forwarded or if we spend time (as I understand "soul sleep" to be) in a suspended animation in our graves (gah, I sure as heck HOPE not! I'm not happy about a "grave" to begin with!) so we don't know the time is being passed, I don't know, but I sure would like some clue or inkling.

K

 

[DaRev]

So, sometime back (probably in the dark ages...I'm not sure) DaRev made mention of a concept of "Soul Sleep" I looked but couldn't find the original statement but this concept has been on my mind for AGES.

So, what IS "soul sleep" anyway? Where is it mentioned in the Bible? How is it a Lutheran belief? Do the Confessions talk about it? If so, where?

"Soul sleep" is a concept held by the Seventh Day Adventists and some others that basically says when one dies they are "asleep" in the grave awaiting the resurrection. This is not supported by Scripture.

I'd really like to know what it's all about. From my understanding, when we die we are IMMEDIATELY judged and given over to Heaven or Hell. Whether that means that Judgment Day is somehow fast forwarded or if we spend time (as I understand "soul sleep" to be) in a suspended animation in our graves (gah, I sure as heck HOPE not! I'm not happy about a "grave" to begin with!) so we don't know the time is being passed, I don't know, but I sure would like some clue or inkling.

K

The period of time between temporal death and the resurrection on the Last Day is known as the "interim state". The Bible does not really talk much about the interim state, except that those who die in Christ are at rest with the Lord awaiting the resurrection. Revelation 6 and 7 talks a little bit about this.

 

[WildStrawberry]

AH HA! So YOU don't personally believe in it. *whew* THAT is a load off of my mind. LOL I remember you saying something but not WHAT you said or even WHEN you said it.

Makes sense to me.

Interim state. I guess I need to brush off Revelation and read up on it. I'm sure I'll have lots of questions pretty soon...

 

[alexnbethmom]

this is a very interesting topic....

am i correct in assuming that this interim state is not the same as RCC's "purgatory"?

so if we die in Christ before the Last Day, and we are at rest with Christ, are we, then, in Heaven? i wonder how this will differ, "interim state" vs. "Heaven".

hmmmm....

 

[WildStrawberry]

OOOh good questions! Thanks!

 

[Resha Caner]

this is a very interesting topic....

am i correct in assuming that this interim state is not the same as RCC's "purgatory"?

so if we die in Christ before the Last Day, and we are at rest with Christ, are we, then, in Heaven? i wonder how this will differ, "interim state" vs. "Heaven".

hmmmm....

I could give you my answer, but DaRev would have a fit. When bringing this up with my pastor, his answer was essentially the same as what DaRev said: scripture just doesn't tell us what happens. And, since the LCMS is not given to speculation, we should leave it at that. I've learned to love the beauty of that reply. He also gave me some books by Sasse to read - excellent stuff.

But it hasn't stopped me from speculating. For shame!

 

[WildStrawberry]

Oh go ahead and tell us your theory! It'll be fun!

I figure it's sort of an immediate thing...even if we're "sleeping" for a thousand years, we don't know it and it's like closing our eyes and waking up in Heaven.

 

[DaRev]

this is a very interesting topic....

am i correct in assuming that this interim state is not the same as RCC's "purgatory"?

so if we die in Christ before the Last Day, and we are at rest with Christ, are we, then, in Heaven? i wonder how this will differ, "interim state" vs. "Heaven".

hmmmm....

There is a common misconception that our eternity is spent in "heaven", away from the earth. The fact is that the earth was created to be our home and will be our home for all eternity. At the Last Day, the earth is essentially "re-created" into a New Earth as described in Scripture. heaven and earth will basically be one and the same at that point.

Oh, and "purgatory" doesn't exist.

 

[DaRev]

I figure it's sort of an immediate thing...even if we're "sleeping" for a thousand years, we don't know it and it's like closing our eyes and waking up in Heaven.

According to Revelation, those in heaven awaiting the Last Day are aware of the passage of time. Part of their cry to the Lord is "How long, O Lord?"

 

[alexnbethmom]

There is a common misconception that our eternity is spent in "heaven", away from the earth. The fact is that the earth was created to be our home and will be our home for all eternity. At the Last Day, the earth is essentially "re-created" into a New Earth as described in Scripture. heaven and earth will basically be one and the same at that point.

Oh, and "purgatory" doesn't exist.

thank you, Rev - that is just absolutely fascinating, and something i'm going to study and probably bug my pastor about (lucky him, i volunteered to help him cut potatoes and set up the fellowship hall on saturday before our church's Thanksgiving dinner, i'll have all kinds of time to pester him to death, LOL)

so, then, the thing we keep thinking, about being in Heaven with Jesus, we really won't actually be there, but on earth, as recreated by God - and i know you are saying that Heaven and earth will be one at that point, but i'm wondering, will we get to see Heaven as i'm sure we've all imagined it in our heads....

wow....lots and lots to think about.....loving this topic - excellent and fascinating....

 

[WildStrawberry]

There is a common misconception that our eternity is spent in "heaven", away from the earth. The fact is that the earth was created to be our home and will be our home for all eternity. At the Last Day, the earth is essentially "re-created" into a New Earth as described in Scripture. heaven and earth will basically be one and the same at that point.

Can you reconcile this for me against John 14 where Jesus tells His disciples that He goes to prepare a place for them "in My Father's House"? I've always been taught that Jesus is saying that He is going to prepare Heaven for us. If it were a matter of creating a New Earth...would Jesus have needed to go and prepare it for us and would He have called it His Father's house?

According to Revelation, those in heaven awaiting the Last Day are aware of the passage of time. Part of their cry to the Lord is "How long, O Lord?"

Okay so, how does that fit into what you said in the first response about the "interim state"? Who is it that is already in Heaven?

 

[PROPHECYKID]

So, sometime back (probably in the dark ages...I'm not sure) DaRev made mention of a concept of "Soul Sleep" I looked but couldn't find the original statement but this concept has been on my mind for AGES.

So, what IS "soul sleep" anyway? Where is it mentioned in the Bible? How is it a Lutheran belief? Do the Confessions talk about it? If so, where?

I'd really like to know what it's all about. From my understanding, when we die we are IMMEDIATELY judged and given over to Heaven or Hell. Whether that means that Judgment Day is somehow fast forwarded or if we spend time (as I understand "soul sleep" to be) in a suspended animation in our graves (gah, I sure as heck HOPE not! I'm not happy about a "grave" to begin with!) so we don't know the time is being passed, I don't know, but I sure would like some clue or inkling.

K

If I may contribute here, there is biblical support for this concept. It is simply that when you die, it is referred to in the bible as a sleep and at the resurrection you are raised. A few passages that support this are:


Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Compare this to John 5:28,29

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

When Lazarus died, Jesus said that he was sleeping. Many time in the bible death is referred to as a sleep. Paul says this:

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Jesus is coming to resurrect those who have fallen asleep. The bible clearly says this. In the OT a very famous phrase you find after folks like David died was "and David (or whoever) slept with his fathers". Soul sleep is therefore very biblical. At death one does not go to heaven or to hell. In Revelation 22, Jesus says that he comes quickly and his reward is with him to give every man according as his works shall be. If you get the reward at death then what is the point of Jesus coming. Also if hell exists and at death you can go there and be tormented then you must have eternal life, however for the lost the penalty is death. It is only those that are saved that can have eternal life.

 

[Resha Caner]

According to Revelation, those in heaven awaiting the Last Day are aware of the passage of time. Part of their cry to the Lord is "How long, O Lord?"

I always took this as a figurative statement in the same vein as Gen 4:10. I've also always taken the "sleep" thing as a euphimism for death.

Oh go ahead and tell us your theory! It'll be fun!

OK. But don't laugh too much. It is quite different from the way most people think, and so those I've spoken to about it find it quite strange. To begin with, as I said above I take a lot of the scripture on this topic as figurative language. If one sits down to try and produce some definitive work on "soul" and "spirit" as those terms are used in scripture, one is likely to go mad. But as it stands, it seems my idea answers questions about coma, mental capacity (what if someone is to handicapped to "understand" scripture and questions like that) and so forth.

It begins here: dead is dead. There is no ghostly essence that separates from the body at death. (Caner cringes and waits for the reply)

 

[WildStrawberry]

Interesting theory. However (comma) I have read reports on death where they have done studies about body weight just before and just after the time of death. Their discovery was that, just after death the body already registers at about 2 lbs LIGHTER than just before death.

Do I have a cite online? Nope. It was quite some time ago that I read the papers and reports.

 

[alexnbethmom]

Interesting theory. However (comma) I have read reports on death where they have done studies about body weight just before and just after the time of death. Their discovery was that, just after death the body already registers at about 2 lbs LIGHTER than just before death.

Do I have a cite online? Nope. It was quite some time ago that I read the papers and reports.

wow....wow wow wow!!! that is just....fascinating!! (i know i say that word a lot but dang, this conversation is just a PLETHORA of things to think about, study about, pester pastor about.....)

i'm going to see if i can find some info on line regarding that....that just blows my mind....

 

[WildStrawberry]

Yeah it really blew my mind as well when I read it. I sure wish I could remember WHAT journal I read it in as well as WHEN I read it. It has to be at least 15 years old because I didn't "study" death until 15 - 20 years ago. (I was too afraid. LOL)

 

[WildStrawberry]

First thing I got when I utilized google-fu

snopes.com: Weight of the Soul

 

[Resha Caner]

Well, according to my theory, my soul would weigh about 3 lbs. So, if the souls measured by the good doctor only weighed 0.75 oz ...

And would those who are saved weigh more than those who aren't?

What I've said so far isn't that unique. There are others like myself who think the soul is material. It's where you go from there. I would say people have a soul, but not a spirit. Only God has a Spirit. And it is the indwelling of the Spirit that produces the saving faith. Those who do not have the Spirit simply cannot understand the Christian faith. So, at death the Spirit does depart (but that isn't measureable). What that means is that the person ceases to exist - except for the memory the Spirit has of you. We then become totally dependent on God for our resurrection because nothing of us continues. Dust we are, and to dust we return.

From our perspective, however, the transformation is instantaneous. Since we didn't exist from the moment of our death until we are resurrected, to us it feels as if everything happened instantaneously - in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye.

 

[DaRev]

If I may contribute here, there is biblical support for this concept. It is simply that when you die, it is referred to in the bible as a sleep and at the resurrection you are raised. A few passages that support this are:


Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Compare this to John 5:28,29

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

When Lazarus died, Jesus said that he was sleeping. Many time in the bible death is referred to as a sleep. Paul says this:

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Jesus is coming to resurrect those who have fallen asleep. The bible clearly says this. In the OT a very famous phrase you find after folks like David died was "and David (or whoever) slept with his fathers". Soul sleep is therefore very biblical. At death one does not go to heaven or to hell. In Revelation 22, Jesus says that he comes quickly and his reward is with him to give every man according as his works shall be. If you get the reward at death then what is the point of Jesus coming. Also if hell exists and at death you can go there and be tormented then you must have eternal life, however for the lost the penalty is death. It is only those that are saved that can have eternal life.

The word "sleep" in these passages, especially as used by Paul, indicates the temporary nature of physical death. It is figurative language. Scripture, in the proper context, does not support the notion that the soul "sleeps" but rather that the soul is at rest with the Lord.

Also, the use of the word "death" must also be taken in context. The word "death" means "seperation". When the Scriptures speak of death in terms of eternity, it is referring to the eternal seperation from God, also known as "spiritual death". Thus also, when the Scriptures speak of "eternal life" it is referring to living for eternity in the presence of God in His Kingdom.

 

[DaRev]

OK. But don't laugh too much. It is quite different from the way most people think, and so those I've spoken to about it find it quite strange. To begin with, as I said above I take a lot of the scripture on this topic as figurative language.

And therein lies the problem. Context determines what is to be read figuratively and what is not.

It begins here: dead is dead. There is no ghostly essence that separates from the body at death. (Caner cringes and waits for the reply)

Only problem is, Scripture teaches otherwise.