A question about "Soul Sleep"

[PROPHECYKID]

easy does it Kiddo! Please keep in mind you are a guest in this forum. You are in close proximity of a violation of the forum rules as you are not Lutheran. Questions may be posted, but debate, on your part anyway, is strictly verboten.

Since you attend a Seventh Day Adventist Church, you will naturally view the scriptures differently than we do (yes I checked your profile). That makes neither you nor us wrong in our own venues. However, we must adhere to our doctrines and theologies or risk hypocracy. You are not allowed, in another faith's sub-forum to challenge that faith's doctrines as you just came very close to doing. If you would like to promote your faith's beliefs in this area, may I suggest opening a thread in the Anabaptist forum? Some of us visit there on a regular basis. One just doesn't often hear from us.

Your input is welcome and has been interesting. Just please remember, comments and questions are welcome. Debate is not allowed for non-Lutherans (gosh, don't Lutherans argue enough amoungst themselves?).

Ok. I haven't been here in 3 years. In fact, this was the first forum I came to when i first got here and I remember giving DaRev some trouble

I remember back then I was warned against breaking the rules but I didn't know anything about rules then. I do now. I found it important to contribute to this particular topic since the OP in my opinion deserves to hear from both sides.

 

[DaRev]

You quoting the text to support your point does not make the other scriptures which do not support your point irrelevant. What we should seek to do is harmonize scripture and not have a bible text battle.

As I told you before, the fires of Sodom and Gomorrah was said in Jude to be eternal fires.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Notice also that the Sodom and Gomorrah experience is set forth as an example. Those folks suffered the vengeance of Eternal Fire in Sodom and Gomorrah. It means that the lost will also suffer vengeance of Eternal Fire like Sodom and Gomorrah. We know however that the fired of Sodom and Gomorrah are no longer burning. So we need to ask ourselves, why is it described as eternal fire. Also those folks must have eternal life to have suffered and suffering eternal fire.

Your problem, as I see it, is that you are viewing "life" in a strictly temporal sense. You either can't or won't see it from a spiritual sense. The term "eternal life" Scripturally means "eternity in the presence of God". Thus, "eternal death" means "eternal seperation from God". The Scriptures clearly state that those who suffer eternal death, eternal seperation from God, do so in a state of everlasting torment. They do not cease to exist.

Once you can see the Biblical definitions of these things, you will see that the Scripture passages that you claim support your hypothesis simply do no such thing.

 

[DaRev]

I'll adhere to your request, Rev. But let me say one last thing. As I said at the beginning of this discussion, I've learned to love the LCMS position on this. God has used scripture to tell us what is important. We don't need any more than that.

So, I make no claim that my speculation is correct. It is, for me, an enjoyable way to explore the depths of God. Some of it may be correct. Most of it is likely wrong.

But there are many, like myself, who take a long time to accept that. So, to have someone shut off the conversation appears as a dodge. It frustrates the situation rather than aiding it. At the same time, I realize this speculation could also cause someone to stumble. If that happened, it would sadden me. So how do I split that hair? How do I talk with those who, like myself, like to speculate, and draw them to that understanding that we simply can't know absolutely about the areas where scripture is silent - while at the same time not harming those for whom these discussions are frightening?

I don't have an answer for that. But I will be quiet for now.

It's not a "dodge" as you put it. It's just there are multiple posts from different people which simply have no basis in fact. And that fact that some of them claim to be Lutheran boggles my mind even more.

 

[Studeclunker]

Okay Kiddo, let's have a look at that quotation from Jude in several versions starting with KJV:

Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengance of eternal fire.

Now let's look at in RSV:

Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in un-natural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Hmmm... slightly different there.
Another slightly different spin on the translation is NEB:

Remember Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbouring towns; like the angels, they commmitted fornication and followed unnatural lusts; and paid the penalty in eternal fire, an example for all to see.

Phillips Paraphrase is even more different:

Sodom and Gomorrah and the adjacent cities who, in the same way as these men today, gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion, stand in their punishment as a permanant warning of the fire of judgement.

What the writer of Jude is calling attention to is not so much the locality of those old communities, but their populations. It's the people of Sodom and Gomorrah as well as those who lived in the neighboring towns, that the writer is referring to. Thus naturally, the region of Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding valley are no longer burning. The people who inhabited that region however, are currently burning in Shoel and will remain there for all eternity.

Now, as to the 'sleep' thing: Was Jesus lying or otherwise decieving the crimminal beside him when he told him, "Today you shall be with me in Paradise,"? Thus, if our Lord, who was incedentally God himself in human flesh, told this man they would both be in Heaven that day, there is no such thing as "soul sleep". Perhaps a 'body sleep' might be acceptable. Our physical body sleeping here on the Earth, returning to the elements from which it came (ashes to ashes, dust to dust...), then being reconstituted by the Lord in shining perfection. Those of us who are lucky enough to witness the Lord in the clouds will be transformed as they stand there.

I have no objection at all if you present a premise of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. Just please present it as such, not a refutation of accepted Lutheran doctrine. Thus, both sides of the coin are displayed and neither is offended.

Lutherans don't generally like to extrapolate without firm Biblical backing. In fact, one can often hear a Lutheran Pastor say something to the effect, "The Bible isn't clear on that so I really wouldn't know." Thus Resha's remark is one I quite agree with:

As I said at the beginning of this discussion, I've learned to love the LCMS position on this. God has used scripture to tell us what is important. We don't need any more than that.

This is most certainly true. Sometimes we are given information on a 'need-to-know' basis.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Well, according to my theory, my soul would weigh about 3 lbs. So, if the souls measured by the good doctor only weighed 0.75 oz ...

And would those who are saved weigh more than those who aren't?

It may be that those who are saved have the lightest soul... unburdened by sin.

You may need to revise your theory!

 

[Studeclunker]

It may be that those who are saved have the lightest soul... unburdened by sin.

You may need to revise your theory!

LOL!!

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Phillips Paraphrase is even more different:

I am really not a fan of anyone's paraphrase but the versions were ok.

What the writer of Jude is calling attention to is not so much the locality of those old communities, but their populations. It's the people of Sodom and Gomorrah as well as those who lived in the neighboring towns, that the writer is referring to. Thus naturally, the region of Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding valley are no longer burning. The people who inhabited that region however, are currently burning in Shoel and will remain there for all eternity.

For this to be true then these people must have undergone a change in order for them to be still burning. Our mortal bodies will be consumed in our earthly fire in little time and reduced to ashes. It must mean their bodies should be changed and they must also have eternal life. Would you agree to this. I can't see any other way this can be possible.

Now, as to the 'sleep' thing: Was Jesus lying or otherwise decieving the crimminal beside him when he told him, "Today you shall be with me in Paradise,"? Thus, if our Lord, who was incedentally God himself in human flesh, told this man they would both be in Heaven that day, there is no such thing as "soul sleep".

The original greek has no commas. When the comma is placed after "Today," is has a different meaning to if it is placed before ",Today". "I say unto you Today, thou shalt be with me in paradise". Many have said and I agree that the comma is misplaced in the KJV. If you look at it though, Jesus did not go to heaven on that day but as the bible said he went to the heart of the earth. Peter said he went to hades which is also translated grave.

Perhaps a 'body sleep' might be acceptable. Our physical body sleeping here on the Earth, returning to the elements from which it came (ashes to ashes, dust to dust...), then being reconstituted by the Lord in shining perfection. Those of us who are lucky enough to witness the Lord in the clouds will be transformed as they stand there.

The concept of sleep is just a metaphor for death but I do not believe you can have a dead soul. Once the soul is dead it is no longer a soul. Genesis 2:7 says that the body + breath forms a living soul. At death the spirit leaves (Ecc 12:7) meaning the soul no longer exists.

I have no objection at all if you present a premise of the Seventh Day Adventist Church. Just please present it as such, not a refutation of accepted Lutheran doctrine. Thus, both sides of the coin are displayed and neither is offended.

I am not making an attempt to refute Lutheran doctrine, but just whatever was said in response to me that I do not believe is true from scripture. If that is Lutheran doctrine then it doesn't really matter to me. And many Non SDA folks I know also believe in this. I do not consider it an S.D.A doctrine.

 

[seajoy]

Even if you don't consider it that - it is SDA doctrine.

 

[QuiltAngel]

Ok. I haven't been here in 3 years. In fact, this was the first forum I came to when i first got here and I remember giving DaRev some trouble

I remember back then I was warned against breaking the rules but I didn't know anything about rules then. I do now. I found it important to contribute to this particular topic since the OP in my opinion deserves to hear from both sides.

Thing is, the OP is a Lutheran asking the question in the Lutheran forum. To me, that indicates she was asking for the Lutheran viewpoint. If she wanted other viewpoints, she would have posted in General Theology or some other part of CF.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Is my presence here being a bother to you guys? If so I would just leave.

 

[DaRev]

The original greek has no commas. When the comma is placed after "Today," is has a different meaning to if it is placed before ",Today". "I say unto you Today, thou shalt be with me in paradise". Many have said and I agree that the comma is misplaced in the KJV.

I'd be interested to hear your rationale for saying that the comma was misplaced. For you to bring up the Greek text, you must have studied Greek somewhat? Then you should know that one of the reasons the comma is placed where it is in the Engalih text is because of where the word "semeron" appears in the sentence.

If you look at it though, Jesus did not go to heaven on that day but as the bible said he went to the heart of the earth. Peter said he went to hades which is also translated grave.

Be careful that you don't deny the divine nature, and thus the omnipresence, of Christ.

 

[QuiltAngel]

Is my presence here being a bother to you guys? If so I would just leave.

Just want to remind you to abide by the rules here. It looks like you and DaRev have gotten a good discussion going on here. Carry on.

 

[twin.spin]

Concerning about the time between temporal death and the ressurection, (not thoroughly reading every post) isn't the other things that we know is

• we are judged Hebrews 9:27

based on Jesus' parable of The Rich Man and Lazarus Luke 16:19
after judgement of Hebrews 9:27

• a person's soul will find themself either in complete content and joy in heaven or complete anguish in hell
• though in hell, it's not the total seperation from the presence of God which occurs at the end of the world
• the person is not able to have the ability to find relief from the anguish of hell on their own. (which would include companionship of others .. i.e. misery likes company)
• both souls in heaven and hell are cognoscente of others living

 

[PROPHECYKID]

I'd be interested to hear your rationale for saying that the comma was misplaced. For you to bring up the Greek text, you must have studied Greek somewhat? Then you should know that one of the reasons the comma is placed where it is in the Engalih text is because of where the word "semeron" appears in the sentence.

I haven't studied Greek but I do understand why the comma was placed where it was even though there were no commas originally. But Jesus told his disciples that he would rise on the third day. After this resurrection he told Mary that he had not yet ascended to his father.

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

If you then believe that paradise is heaven then Jesus is saying here that he did not go there. That is why many believe that paradise is hades, which is a more understandable approach. I still don't agree with it though.

Also "paradise" is never described in the Bible as a place that is in heaven or that is now in existence somewhere. The word is of Persian origin, meaning "park" or "garden," and is used in the Septuagint--the Greek translation of the Old Testament--to refer to the Garden of Eden, in Genesis 2 and 3. The Book of Revelation uses the word to describe the restored paradise that will be on the New Earth after Jesus comes back to this planet to carry out the promised "restoration of all things". That is the understanding they had of paradise.

Be careful that you don't deny the divine nature, and thus the omnipresence, of Christ.

Not at all. But it was Jesus himself who said that he had not yet ascended to heaven. Jesus was human and divine, yet we don't find any examples of Jesus using omnipresence during his time on earth.

 

[WildStrawberry]

Ahh such information to chew over. I asked my bestest friend the same question and she popped in here to read and this is what she sent me:

Dead people are removed from time constraints as well. Therefore, after death, we don't exist in a place where "time" has any meaning anymore, so we're not exactly "transported" to some mysterious time in the future we call Judgment Day; it's just that we suddenly exist in a realm where all points in time exist - so we go there "immediately", so to speak.
The saints in heaven cry "how long, O Lord, how long" because they can SEE our suffering and they KNOW that it's taking A Really Long Time - not because they're confined to the timestream as we are, but because they can SEE it happening and they wish it was over too.

I figure that, God being...well GOD, He isn't constrained by time and space and the notion of "sleep". Neither does the dead guy...anymore. We who are in the timestream "see" time passing but once we are removed from that, the concept of "sleep" and "time" no longer matters and we are caught up in JOY everlasting. (provided, of course, that we die as believers.)

ProphecyKid, I appreciate the info but...

ETA: I forgot to say that she said "this is my BEST GUESS"

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Ahh such information to chew over. I asked my bestest friend the same question and she popped in here to read and this is what she sent me:

I figure that, God being...well GOD, He isn't constrained by time and space and the notion of "sleep". Neither does the dead guy...anymore. We who are in the timestream "see" time passing but once we are removed from that, the concept of "sleep" and "time" no longer matters and we are caught up in JOY everlasting. (provided, of course, that we die as believers.)

ProphecyKid, I appreciate the info but...

ETA: I forgot to say that she said "this is my BEST GUESS"

As always. Let the bible speak.

 

[Phoebe]

I always took this as a figurative statement in the same vein as Gen 4:10. I've also always taken the "sleep" thing as a euphimism for death.



OK. But don't laugh too much. It is quite different from the way most people think, and so those I've spoken to about it find it quite strange. To begin with, as I said above I take a lot of the scripture on this topic as figurative language. If one sits down to try and produce some definitive work on "soul" and "spirit" as those terms are used in scripture, one is likely to go mad. But as it stands, it seems my idea answers questions about coma, mental capacity (what if someone is to handicapped to "understand" scripture and questions like that) and so forth.

It begins here: dead is dead. There is no ghostly essence that separates from the body at death. (Caner cringes and waits for the reply)

The Jehovah's Witnesses teach that the body and soul are one. (Charles Russell came fron the SDAs. ) Does the SDA church teach this also?

This discussion brings to mind the NDEs that are reported. I watched a show on tv about this two days ago.

 

[Studeclunker]

Actually, the Bible isn't terribly clear as to what happens at the immediate point of death. The Apostle Paul does say that when we die we are "...Immediately with the Lord... it is better to die and be with the Lord..." Thus, what Strawberry and her friend theorized on is quite possible. Also possible is your theory, P.K. Remember please, this is the Lutheran forum and we try to let Scripture interpret Scripture. When the Bible isn't terribly clear, we are allowed to theorize and imagine, however making theology and doctrine is not possible. Thus, what happened to Christ after his suffering and death? He died. Mary is told he didn't ascend to his Father (God) quite yet. I find it interesting though that he wouldn't let Mary (Magdaline) touch him, yet he invinted Thomas to. During this period, he ate, prepared food for the Apostles, walked several miles with two and broke bread with them, also appeared in closed and secured rooms.

A pastor once described to me the following attributes to the Trinity:

God: Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omnicient.
Christ: Omnipotent, Omnicient.
Holy Spirit: Omnipresent, Omnicient.

Due to Christ's physical body, he couldn't be Omnipresent whilst on Earth. Hence why he sent the Holy Spirit after he ascended. This is a quality that the Holy Spirit does possess. However, since God is a Trinity and all three persons are one person, then Christ does possess Omnipresence through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Studeclunker]

The Jehovah's Witnesses teach that the body and soul are one. (Charles Russell came fron the SDAs. ) Does the SDA church teach this also?

This discussion brings to mind the NDEs that are reported. I watched a show on tv about this two days ago.

The J.W.s also teach that Christ is just a man and not God. They deny the Trinity entirely. I think we can leave whatever the J.W.s teach out of the discussion.

This question should be posted in the Anabaptist forum. Though as far as my limited knowledge of Anabaptist theology goes, this (body/soul being one) would be heresy. From what I'm told, they teach immediate transport upon death to the presence of Christ (Heaven). Pretty much the same as what the Lutherans preach/teach/believe.

 

[DaRev]

A pastor once described to me the following attributes to the Trinity:

God: Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omnicient.
Christ: Omnipotent, Omnicient.
Holy Spirit: Omnipresent, Omnicient.

Due to Christ's physical body, he couldn't be Omnipresent whilst on Earth. Hence why he sent the Holy Spirit after he ascended. This is a quality that the Holy Spirit does possess. However, since God is a Trinity and all three persons are one person, then Christ does possess Omnipresence through the Holy Spirit.

I would have to disagree with the pastor who told you this. He is putting limits on God. The Trinity is co-equal in all attributes. It's not that Christ couldn't be omnipresent in His humanity, it's that he chose not to use or reveal certain divine attributes during His earthly ministry. To say that Christ is not omnipresent is denying His divinity. He is 100% God and 100% human at the same time.