Theistic Evolution ~ is it compatible with orthodox teaching & doctrine? .

[Christ's_Warrior]

well the scientists examining that thing have evolutionary presuppositions, so of course they see in it evidence for evolution. i wonder what non-evolutionary scientists would have to say about that same creature?

the article states: "The analysis of the fossil clearly positions it as an intermediate: it has a more mobile skull/neck than a fish, and although its limbs are clearly fin-like, they also have features that presage the digits of tetrapods."

-- why is it so clearly an intermediate rather than a separate species that is similar? similarity does not necessarily mean one came from the other -- i think they can be similar because they were created by the same God

It makes me think of the platypus here in Australia, if that were extinct it would definately be considered a transitional form.

I have no quarrels regarding the evolutionary theory, if it is actually true then I really believe it puts atheists into a bad position. How can nature with no assistance from God actually evolve in the first place? It is an untenable position because the scientist can answer to some extent how, they can't answer why.

For example, why do we have fruit bearing tree's? Did nature simply understand that living creatures would require food? How did nature blindly understand that in order to fly it would need wings that are positioned in exactly the right place and made of the right material in order for the creature fly? Some may say it was trial and error, but we don't see this. Shouldn't we see wings in places that would be detrimental to the creature due to the chaotic and blind process of atheistic evolution?

But if God is in control, then he set the world and life within the world into motion and guided the evolutionary process, this makes much more sense and I believe the Atheist is actually kidding themselves if they believe that evolution is a means of refuting God.

How can they justify saying that because we exist and have gotten to this stage due to billions of years of evolution that it is proof that there is no God????? This is not a rational statement, we exist because something started the process, if in the beginning there was nothing then I would not be typing this post.

I personally believe that God created the world and how he actually created the universe and life will be revealed to us when we are received in glory.

 

[MKJ]

no one is positing a controversy between the Bible and science. evolution is not the entirety of science! evolution is more a philosophy than a science.

and i think youre just wrong here - the Church has always interpreted Genesis as having several layers including the literal.

It seems to me though that you (not you personally, creationists) need to be clear with themselves and others that they are NOT only rejecting evolution. They are also rejecting large chunks of other parts of the sciences - geologu perhaps being the most obvious, but even including basic things like physics and chemistry.

I always wonder, if one feels the necessity to do that, why trust the same sciences in other ways, for example when they are used to produce technology. To me, that seems the ultimate inevitable result of this line of thinking.

 

[jckstraw72]

It seems to me though that you (not you personally, creationists) need to be clear with themselves and others that they are NOT only rejecting evolution. They are also rejecting large chunks of other parts of the sciences - geologu perhaps being the most obvious, but even including basic things like physics and chemistry.

I always wonder, if one feels the necessity to do that, why trust the same sciences in other ways, for example when they are used to produce technology. To me, that seems the ultimate inevitable result of this line of thinking.

we can trust the science that produces technology because that is dealing in the here and now - in the world that can actually be observed and I can see quite clearly that technology works. i also have no problem with physicists and chemists telling me about physics and chemistry in the here and now which they have actually observed. its when they take their observations of today's world and use that to tell stories about billions of years ago that i no longer believe it. they didnt actually observe and test the past - they are making guesses based on what they see around them today, and when it comes to the past that no one but God observed, I find God to be a much more reliable source than scientists who are looking at bones. Orthodoxy tells us that the world has indeed undergone major changes, and so the assumption of uniformity that drives evolutionary science is wrong, and that's why their guesses about the past are wrong.

 

[Photini]

i think positing such a dichotomy between spiritual and scientific truths is too Gnostic-tinged. spiritual truths almost inevitably tell us something about creation.

I don't get the impression that ortho_cat believes that spiritual truths tell us nothing about creation. I certainly don't believe that way. WHen I read Genesis, I learn something about man's nature and God's relationship with man, and the order of things. Do I think that the entire ins-and-outs of creation are revealed in Genesis? No way. Not even close. Nor do I feel it is very significant to my salvation to know the exact process by which God created everything.

I do find science fascinating, and I am not close-minded to it, or at odds with it. There are some things about it that my rational mind finds plausible.

 

[jckstraw72]

I don't get the impression that ortho_cat believes that spiritual truths tell us nothing about creation. I certainly don't believe that way. WHen I read Genesis, I learn something about man's nature and God's relationship with man, and the order of things. Do I think that the entire ins-and-outs of creation are revealed in Genesis? No way. Not even close. Nor do I feel it is very significant to my salvation to know the exact process by which God created everything.

I do find science fascinating, and I am not close-minded to it, or at odds with it. There are some things about it that my rational mind finds plausible.

ok, but the strictly "scientific" side of this question is not whats really the most important, but rather its the implications that the science has for theology. as ive been saying, if evolution occurred before man sinned, then death occurred before man sinned, and if God created via evolution then that means that death is good, since all that God created was declared to be good. as i understand it, that is the complete opposite about what Orthodoxy teaches! The Wisdom of Solomon tells us that God does not desire the death of anything living, and St. Paul teaches that the creation was subject to vanity by man, not that it's always been this way. if death is good then the purpose of Christ's defeat of death becomes quite obscured, and the refashioned earth loses meaning, since God created the earth to be the way it is now, assuming evolution is true.

also, in Orthodoxy, evil and death have no positive existence of their own - they are the absence of good and life. but if God actually created evolution and death then death takes on its own positive existence, as does suffering. i simply cant see how we can attribute suffering and death to God and still see Him the same way and believe in the same faith that teaches the unnaturalness and evilness of suffering and death (of course they can be used for good, but in and of themselves they are our enemy).

 

[ProScribe]

Isn't the scientific theory of evolution equated with atheism?

 

[jckstraw72]

Isn't the scientific theory of evolution equated with atheism?

i think it largely is, but there is also Theistic Evolution.


i think this article does a good job of discussing the problems of science reaching into other fields, which is where the problem comes The Jurisdiction of Science | Front Porch Republic

 

[Michael G]

Let us remember one thing: whether we believe in Genesis literally or in theistic evolution or any formula in between, all of us Orthodox Christians do all worship the same God and are all working toward the same thing!

 

[jckstraw72]

Let us remember one thing: whether we believe in Genesis literally or in theistic evolution or any formula in between, all of us Orthodox Christians do all worship the same God and are all working toward the same thing!

dont take this the wrong way, im not trying to be a jerk or anything, but Protestants say the same thing. i think we do ourselves a disservice if we fall back on nice sentiments like that in order to gloss over doctrinal differences or difficulties.

 

[Michael G]

dont take this the wrong way, im not trying to be a jerk or anything, but Protestants say the same thing. i think we do ourselves a disservice if we fall back on nice sentiments like that in order to gloss over doctrinal differences or difficulties.

I am not talking about protestants who have vastly divergent views on faith and even on Christ. For the most part Orthodox Christians are in lock step with each other on matters of faith. How we view Genesis in the end has very little effect on our daily application of the Christian faith and life and I hate to see people nearly anathematizing each other over things that are not core to the Orthodox faith.

 

[jckstraw72]

I am not talking about protestants who have vastly divergent views on faith and even on Christ. For the most part Orthodox Christians are in lock step with each other on matters of faith. How we view Genesis in the end has very little effect on our daily application of the Christian faith and life and I hate to see people nearly anathematizing each other over things that are not core to the Orthodox faith.

the problem though is that some ppl, such as myself, see this as touching the very core of the faith. Christ's defeat of death is the very heart of our religion, and thus our understanding of death is central to the faith. im not calling anyone a heretic here, but i think we need to step out of the fog that secular science has put us all in and see that these issues have real implications, and they really do matter! the difference between the God of free will and the God of Calvin is pretty huge, and the difference between the God Who desires life for all and the God Who creates death for all and calls that good is also pretty substantial in my opinion.

 

[Michael G]

the problem though is that some ppl, such as myself, see this as touching the very core of the faith. Christ's defeat of death is the very heart of our religion, and thus our understanding of death is central to the faith. im not calling anyone a heretic here, but i think we need to step out of the fog that secular science has put us all in and see that these issues have real implications, and they really do matter! the difference between the God of free will and the God of Calvin is pretty huge, and the difference between the God Who desires life for all and the God Who creates death for all and calls that good is also pretty substantial in my opinion.

Yeah, I am with you: let us just go anathematizing everyone who disagrees with us on the very smallest thing and building walls and divisions. I guess I should do that as well. I should be anathematizing everyone who disagrees with me on something that actually is important and believing that they and I do not believe in the same Christ and follow the same faith. I wonder how far that will get me on judgement day?!

 

[ProScribe]

S.V.Bufeev. Why an Orthodox Christian cannot be an evolutionist


btw, I read this link. I think we as Christians should critically examine what science reveals to us about the world, the enviroment, and all the creatures that inhabit this planet.

 

[jckstraw72]

Yeah, I am with you: let us just go anathematizing everyone who disagrees with us on the very smallest thing and building walls and divisions. I guess I should do that as well. I should be anathematizing everyone who disagrees with me on something that actually is important and believing that they and I do not believe in the same Christ and follow the same faith. I wonder how far that will get me on judgement day?!

so, in other words, you didnt read what i said at all ...?

 

[jckstraw72]

Yeah, I am with you: let us just go anathematizing everyone who disagrees with us on the very smallest thing and building walls and divisions. I guess I should do that as well. I should be anathematizing everyone who disagrees with me on something that actually is important and believing that they and I do not believe in the same Christ and follow the same faith. I wonder how far that will get me on judgement day?!

i think ive heard Protestants making the same complaint about us! just sayin' ...

 

[Nick T]

So essenially we have to choose between what our senses are clearly telling us (and I'm talking about pre-human animals; this is clearly shown by our senses and is not some philosophical theory) and Orthodoxy?

This dosn't make sense to me. Why can't I believe what my senses are clearly telling me and in Orthodoxy? Why would the physical evidence be incompatible with the spiritual truth?

 

[jckstraw72]

So essenially we have to choose between what our senses are clearly telling us (and I'm talking about pre-human animals; this is clearly shown by our senses and is not some philosophical theory) and Orthodoxy?

This dosn't make sense to me. Why can't I believe what my senses are clearly telling me and in Orthodoxy? Why would the physical evidence be incompatible with the spiritual truth?

it shouldnt be. but when the interpretations of the evidence are in conflict, why is it your inclination to question the teachings of the Fathers rather than science?

 

[jckstraw72]

and if this issue isnt important then why have St. Nektarios, St. John of Kronstadt, St. Barsanuphius of Optina, St. Justin Popovich, Elder Paisios and Fr. Seraphim Rose (just off the top of my head) all taken the time to write and speak against evolution? Did they all lack some clear sight that you all have that would show them how insignificant this really is? Or is it possible that what the Saints find to be important we probably should too?

 

[Photini]

the problem though is that some ppl, such as myself, see this as touching the very core of the faith. Christ's defeat of death is the very heart of our religion, and thus our understanding of death is central to the faith. im not calling anyone a heretic here, but i think we need to step out of the fog that secular science has put us all in and see that these issues have real implications, and they really do matter! the difference between the God of free will and the God of Calvin is pretty huge, and the difference between the God Who desires life for all and the God Who creates death for all and calls that good is also pretty substantial in my opinion.

It is a great discussion...so long as it remains civil (as it has so far). It is a subject that I am looking into and learning more about as each year passes. I can't say I have very well-developed thoughts about it at this point though. But it really does get me to thinking.

If animals did not die before the fall, how was Eden not overrun with animals? I didn't think that animals were created immortal. Was animal "death" then a type of passing on to nourish the earth that didn't involve decay and suffering?

 

[pgp_protector]

Isn't the scientific theory of evolution equated with atheism?

To some, to others they see it as equated with atheism as much as Atomic Theory, or the Theory of Gravity.