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Theistic Evolution ~ is it compatible with orthodox teaching & doctrine? .

MKJ

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So one day, a couple of ape like creatures had babies and those babies were suddenly "human"? Sorry, not buying it.

How is that different than what happened in the Genesis account? God made some bodies out of earth - and they were clearly ape-like bodies, since that's what we still have - and God breathed human souls into them, and then they were people, and not just animals.

I don't know how God made people, really. The text says they were formed out of the dust of the ground, and I've seen images that present that like a sculptor with clay. But that is, I am positive, just an image, and I'm not sure that the same idea, but using some sort of telekinesis instead of hands, is much better.

The thing is, I have no way to know, but the text seems to show every evidence of being a kind of theological account rather than history, and a lot of the Fathers agree with that. That being the case, I can't see any reason to discount evolution as one possibility - I think it actually fits the text better than "everything was created in an instant" in many ways.
 
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Etsi

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How is that different than what happened in the Genesis account? God made some bodies out of earth - and they were clearly ape-like bodies, since that's what we still have - and God breathed human souls into them, and then they were people, and not just animals.

I don't know how God made people, really. The text says they were formed out of the dust of the ground, and I've seen images that present that like a sculptor with clay. But that is, I am positive, just an image, and I'm not sure that the same idea, but using some sort of telekinesis instead of hands, is much better.

The thing is, I have no way to know, but the text seems to show every evidence of being a kind of theological account rather than history, and a lot of the Fathers agree with that. That being the case, I can't see any reason to discount evolution as one possibility - I think it actually fits the text better than "everything was created in an instant" in many ways.
There's a big difference. If we come from animals, then we weren't created in the image of God. Scripture states that we were specifically created in the image of God and WE have rule OVER the animals. Adam even named them. Very different scenario than apes giving to birth to a couple of offspring that suddenly became man. We came from the dust, not from ape (or whatever else others like to believe). If we weren't really created in the image of God and we are merely "elevated" animals, then there is no salvation, no problem with eugenics, abortion, suicide, murder, cannibalism, etc...we're just evolved apes after all.
 
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Etsi

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Explain this to me. God created Adam and Eve. They had one skin color. Some 8,000 years later there are people with any number of skin colors, ranging from the darkest Ethiopian to the palest Norwegian and everything in between. The same with facial features that are predominant to certain regions of the world. How did those come about without some form of micro evolution?
Okay, here it is. You still haven't answered my question though. Do you believe in micro evolution, macro evolution, or both?

BTW, I do believe in micro evolution. I even acknowledged that in my previous posts. I do not believe in macro evolution.

Adam and Eve had the genetic potential for all variances (just as many multi ethnic people do, including myself). As man split up and traveled, certain variances thrived in certain areas, whereas others died. Example, areas with higher solar exposure would naturally be more dangerous for lighter skin tones (cancer, etc) and areas with less solar exposure were more dangerous for darker tones (rickets, etc). As lighter shades would become fewer to breed with in the climates with more solar exposure, thus the genes would become fewer to none (though the occasional blip has been known to happen). Same vis versa for areas with less solar exposure. Also, people tend to see the "majority" as "beauty or preferred" and over time, that also leads to a decrease to breeding with those that have skin tones that aren't optimal in a particular area. The extremes show loss of genetic information.

My children range in skin tone. It's the roll of the genetic dice, but they are all the same species/race (human), the same mixture of ethnicities, and no less or more human than anyone else.

BTW, we are all the same colour, melanin, but varying shades of that colour ;)

Good article, with links to others, http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/race-definition.html
 
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Photini

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it just doesn't make sense with death. for macroevolution to be true then death is at our origins as opposed to a consequence of Man's rebellion.

how can death be created by God (which would make death good, because God only creates good things), then all of a sudden God calls death an enemy of man and the last enemy Christ will defeat.

death was brought into the world by man's sin, how can you have evolution in a sinless universe?

and we are not animals. we never have been, we never will be.


What do you do with the fact that dinosaurs lived and died well before humans were known to this planet?
 
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MKJ

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There's a big difference. If we come from animals, then we weren't created in the image of God. Scripture states that we were specifically created in the image of God and WE have rule OVER the animals. Adam even named them. Very different scenario than apes giving to birth to a couple of offspring that suddenly became man. We came from the dust, not from ape (or whatever else others like to believe). If we weren't really created in the image of God and we are merely "elevated" animals, then there is no salvation, no problem with eugenics, abortion, suicide, murder, cannibalism, etc...we're just evolved apes after all.

Do you feel then that it is our bodies that were meant when it said that we are made in God's image? I don't, at all, even if I were to understand the story literally I wouldn't think that.
 
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jckstraw72

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What do you do with the fact that dinosaurs lived and died well before humans were known to this planet?

they didnt. i reject the dating methods which have the presupposition of uniformitarianism which is incompatible with a fall from Paradise to a world of death, and with a global flood which would have massive consequences for the earth. i dont believe that all of history is uniform, Orthodoxy teaches that there are major shifts in history.
 
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MKJ

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What do you do with the fact that dinosaurs lived and died well before humans were known to this planet?


I think most creationists also reject most modern geology, also astrophysics, and probably a few other scientific fields.
 
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Photini

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they didnt. i reject the dating methods which have the presupposition of uniformitarianism which is incompatible with a fall from Paradise to a world of death, and with a global flood which would have massive consequences for the earth. i dont believe that all of history is uniform, Orthodoxy teaches that there are major shifts in history.

Fair enough. So dinosaurs and humans and mammoths, etc..all lived together?
 
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Ortho_Cat

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By saying that one believes in microevolution, they are acknowledging that evolution happens, and that the primary mechanisms by which this happens is natural selection (or perhaps artificial selection, in the case of selective breeding). This is what Darwin showed. Macroevolution is a logical extension of this. There has been no evidence to show that there is some sort of barrier or limit to microevolution which would prevents species from transitioning to another. This is a recent idea which has been invented due to an idealogical opposition to the theory, which has no scientific support. Further, I have shown numerous instances where such a species transition has indeed occured. The examples I have presented occur in organisms where their life cycle is very short (e.g. bacteria) so that the effects can be observed in our lifetime. In animals, the life cycles are much longer, and the evolutionary process takes much longer to observe (thousands/millions of years). Nevertheless, this prcoess has been clearly shown to have occurred throughout the animal kingdom based on fossil and genetic evidence, among others.
 
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Photini

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By saying that one believes in microevolution, they are acknowledging that evolution happens, and that the primary mechanisms by which this happens is natural selection (or perhaps artificial selection, in the case of selective breeding). This is what Darwin showed. Macroevolution is a logical extension of this. There has been no evidence to show that there is some sort of barrier or limit to microevolution which would prevents species from transitioning to another. This is a recent idea which has been invented due to an idealogical opposition to the theory, which has no scientific support. Further, I have shown numerous instances where such a species transition has indeed occured. The examples I have presented occur in organisms where their life cycle is very short (e.g. bacteria) so that the effects can be observed in our lifetime. In animals, the life cycles are much longer, and the evolutionary process takes much longer to observe (thousands/millions of years). Nevertheless, this prcoess has been clearly shown to have occurred throughout the animal kingdom based on fossil and genetic evidence, among others.

Thanks ortho_cat. Do you happen to have a link where I can read more about it?
 
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Michael G

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Fair enough. So dinosaurs and humans and mammoths, etc..all lived together?

Even if you go by geological dating, mammoths only died off 10,000 years ago and thus were arround during the lifetime of mankind. I do have a hard time believe man lived during the time of T-Rex and Brontosaurus, however.
 
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pgp_protector

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I think Augustine said it best.

Saint Augustine said:
Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking non-sense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although “they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.”
 
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Photini

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Even if you go by geological dating, mammoths only died off 10,000 years ago and thus were arround during the lifetime of mankind. I do have a hard time believe man lived during the time of T-Rex and Brontosaurus, however.

Absolutely. I think Omo I and Omo II were dated to be around 195,000 years old.
 
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pgp_protector

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Photini

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I do have a hard time believe man lived during the time of T-Rex and Brontosaurus, however.


If we are to have a literal belief of Genesis...I can't seem to wrap my mind around picturing a T-Rex and velociraptors in the Garden of Eden.
 
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MKJ

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By saying that one believes in microevolution, they are acknowledging that evolution happens, and that the primary mechanisms by which this happens is natural selection (or perhaps artificial selection, in the case of selective breeding). This is what Darwin showed. Macroevolution is a logical extension of this. There has been no evidence to show that there is some sort of barrier or limit to microevolution which would prevents species from transitioning to another. This is a recent idea which has been invented due to an idealogical opposition to the theory, which has no scientific support. Further, I have shown numerous instances where such a species transition has indeed occured. The examples I have presented occur in organisms where their life cycle is very short (e.g. bacteria) so that the effects can be observed in our lifetime. In animals, the life cycles are much longer, and the evolutionary process takes much longer to observe (thousands/millions of years). Nevertheless, this prcoess has been clearly shown to have occurred throughout the animal kingdom based on fossil and genetic evidence, among others.

As I understand it, scientists usually consider a differentiation of species to be when the two separated groups can no longer cross-breed and have fertile offspring? If so, I can't think of any logical reason that micro-evolution couldn't lead to species differentiation, if the right genetic changes occurred. Am I misunderstanding?
 
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