No Law = No Transgression = Sin no longer exists

[janwoG]

To Indy
I am curious, where does the Bible indicate the law of the Holy Spirit is the Ten Commandments? I know a man that converted to the SDA movement from a main line church. He never considered the Sabbath prior to becoming involved with the SDA movement yet claims to have read the Bible. I am going huh? If he had read the Bible he had been exposed to the Sabbath a lot. Why did not he feel that he should observe the Sabbath prior to meeting up with the SDA folks? Was it really the Holy Spirit that showed him this? It really seems odd to me that the Holy Spirit did not speak to his heart prior to his involvement with the SDA.
Jesus said “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath”. Being Lord of the Sabbath, He is also Lord of the Torah, God´s word. OF course Jesus is the incarnation of God’s Word, hence he is the incarnation of the Torah. Since Jesus is my Lord, I came to respect the Sabbath as well as I can.
Jesus said Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. (Matthew 5:17) In that context, it means complete the promise of the Law, not replacing the Law. Hence, we are not anymore condemned by the Law thanks to the grace of Christ, but the Law remains useful as a tool of sanctification to keep one´s faith alive. Why to replace the Sabbath by the day of rest on Sunday? The day of resurrection is an extended Sabbath at the end of Passover.
As the Sabbath is the remembrance, of Israel saved from the slavery of Egypt, as the last supper is the remembrance of us saved from the slavery of sin by Jesus. Therefore, we should commemorate the last supper at every Sabbath.
The Nohahide Laws were recommended to gentiles by Paul and the first council of Jerusalem as a compromise to Rabbinic Judaism, who did not want gentiles to be associated to Israel , hence to the New Israel, because at that time Rabbinic Judaism was powerful. It is not anymore so nowadays. Israel has been selected out of all nations and set apart for being witness of God. Jesus has united gentiles with Israel through his new covenant, of which foundation is the old one. This unification without Israel and its form is incomplete. The two commandments of Jesus : "The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." Mark 12:28-31) The first commandment summarize the first stone table with 5 commandments relating men‘s relation with God. Since God created you through your parents, thus respecting them, the fifth commandment is considered by the Rabbinic Judaism as relation to God. The second commandment summarizes the spirit of the commandments 6 to 10, thus the relation of men with men. Love God is the first chapter, the five commandments been subchapters, and the remaining correspondent mitzvoth as rule of application. This is the same with the second stone table with regard to the relation of men to men. Since we are not anymore under rabbinical authority, the Holy Ghost will lead us to follow the law according to one’s capacity, but not forgetting to prioritize the laws according to their importance. The law is not anymore required to be saved but is useful to structure one’s day for the worship of our Lord. However, there is no sin where is the ignorance.
After, the first apostles, the Greeks gentiles have progressively and constantly estranged the church of his Jewish roots what ended up to the holocaust. It was not mainly to lighten the burden of Law for gentiles. Circumcision has not impeded the Muslim males to become 750 million adherents. And the dietetic prohibitions have not deterred the Muslims to reach 1billion and half with fast growth.

Just to be clear, I am not a SDA.

 

[98cwitr]

I have tried to argue this exact same thing in another thread...good luck for some people apparently think they do not sin.

I've encountered this frame of mind before on this forum...Apostle John would just remind us and them that such claims bear no truth.

1 John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

 

[Rick Otto]

Romans 4:15
because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

Seems to be a common theme around here, to say we are not under the law but grace. I totally agree with this statement. Fellowship with Christ is not about a checklist of 613 things you must do in order to be saved, it's about faith. That is comforting.

Now ask yourself this question: Does sin still exist?

If you answered yes, you'd be right. We see sin everywhere including in ourselves.

So by logic, if there is sin there is a transgression? If there is a transgression there must be a law of some sort.

There is and it's pretty obvious. It's the Law of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:2) and it only requires two things (Luke 10:27-28):

1. Love the Lord with all your heart, this means that you put God first in your life and not second to yourself. It means trusting and delighting in the truth of God.

2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

That said, both of these are pretty loaded statements and actually require a lot of attentive efforts on the part of a follower of this doctrine.

My point is this: If you say there is no law, or that you're not under any law, then you are saying we are all sinless, for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Keep in mind that even though we are not under OT Law, there is still two products of the fruit of the Spirit, and that is loving God and loving others. Do this and live.

The "law of love" is oxymoronic & yet apt because principles & ideals have practical value. The imposition of law can teach the recipients self-governing principles & enobling ideals, which when achieved, enable gracefull ideals like mercy & forgiveness.
It's not so much that we need permission for anything, rather we need to be mindfull of consequences.

 

[98cwitr]

^^^I agree, we must be mindful of consequence.

 

[Rick Otto]

I have tried to argue this exact same thing in another thread...good luck for some people apparently think they do not sin.

(doing Jack Benny)Well! (Ahem,..) I admit I occaisionaly sin, but when I do it's completely forgiveable!

...just a friendly tease, JayMac,
I been pronouncing your name "Jay-Mac-Voals". Is that correct?

 

[jmacvols]

(doing Jack Benny)Well! (Ahem,..) I admit I occaisionaly sin, but when I do it's completely forgiveable!

...just a friendly tease, JayMac,
I been pronouncing your name "Jay-Mac-Voals". Is that correct?

No "a", just vols.

 

[Frogster]

I have tried to argue this exact same thing in another thread...good luck for some people apparently think they do not sin.

You just do not seem to understand rom 7. we carry 2 natures, but the law, sin and flesh go hand in hand with the old one.
That is why if we walk in the new one, hence, we will see the opposite.

it is a principle.

If you believe sin, confemantion and death were a dominion of adam that u lived in, why can't you see the opposite in the new reign?

21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Me personally, i like my new home better.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

You just do not seem to understand rom 7. we carry 2 natures, but the law, sin and flesh go hand in hand with the old one.
That is why if we walk in the new one, hence, we will see the opposite.

it is a principle.

If you believe sin, confemantion and death were a dominion of adam that u lived in, why can't you see the opposite in the new reign?

21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Me personally, i like my new home better.

Actually no. Paul says that he is carnal but the law is spiritual. The carnal man is sold under sin and cannot do the good which he ought to do.

 

[jmacvols]

You just do not seem to understand rom 7. we carry 2 natures, but the law, sin and flesh go hand in hand with the old one.
That is why if we walk in the new one, hence, we will see the opposite.

it is a principle.

If you believe sin, confemantion and death were a dominion of adam that u lived in, why can't you see the opposite in the new reign?

21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Me personally, i like my new home better.

I understand Romans 7.
It is those who think they are not under any law and therefore are not capable of sinning, who think it is impossible for them to transgress, it is they who have a misunderstanding of Romans 7.

 

[Yarddog]

Have faith in the Holy Spirit to keep you in His Way, which is to love God and neighbor.

It is "only" through his Holy Spirit that we can know how to love properly.

 

[Frogster]

Actually no. Paul says that he is carnal but the law is spiritual. The carnal man is sold under sin and cannot do the good which he ought to do.

it still aroused the old nature, it u want sin aroused, what does it?

5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.

 

[Frogster]

I understand Romans 7.
It is those who think they are not under any law and therefore are not capable of sinning, who think it is impossible for them to transgress, it is they who have a misunderstanding of Romans 7.

No, saved paul explained how the law roused sin,,,

How am I wrong?

 

[PROPHECYKID]

it still aroused the old nature, it u want sin aroused, what does it?

5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.

WHILE WE WERE LIVING IN THE FLESH. In other words, while we were carnal.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

That is why the law will arouse sin in the flesh (carnal) because the carnal mind is not subject to the law in the first place. We can only overcome sin if we are spiritually minded.

 

[Frogster]

WHILE WE WERE LIVING IN THE FLESH. In other words, while we were carnal.

Oh, then u admit the law was for the flesh?


besides, when paul exponded on the principle, he was a Christian, writing to Christians, and explaining the law working it's dynamic. The struggle was written from a saved persons view.

Does the law rial sin in your lower nature, or your new nature?

See gal 5:16-18.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Oh, then u admit the law was for the flesh?


besides, when paul exponded on the principle, he was a Christian, writing to Christians, and explaining the law working it's dynamic. The struggle was written from a saved persons view.

Does the law rial sin in your lower nature, or your new nature?

See gal 5:16-18.

In your old nature. How can the law be for the flesh if the carnal mind is not subject to it. The law is spiritual so how can it match with someone who is carnal? If such a thing happens it will only lead to death because it is an incorrect match.

 

[Frogster]

In your old nature. How can the law be for the flesh if the carnal mind is not subject to it. The law is spiritual so how can it match with someone who is carnal? If such a thing happens it will only lead to death because it is an incorrect match.

seems like you agree, i think, cause you said old nature, yet the rest seems contradictory?

Yes, the law is spiritual, and it kills, it is a dynamic, yes..spiritual...

 

[PROPHECYKID]

seems like you agree, i think, cause you said old nature, yet the rest seems contradictory?

Yes, the law is spiritual, and it kills, it is a dynamic, yes..spiritual...

It kills the carnal man not the spiritual man.

 

[Frogster]

It kills the carnal man not the spiritual man.

However, paul died, and was THEN released from it, no?

So yes, it killed, but then paul walked by faith, not law.

But, the law can kill the spiritual. Why did paul warn the saved galatians, if they got under law, they would be in bondage, and he called it leaven in 5;9, and said they would be severed from Christ, sounds deadly to me...