Choosing Christianity (after a long research of other religions)

BruceDLimber

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Eh... I did a little bit, but from what little I did it seemed a bit far-fetched to lump Abraham, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Muhammad and the Bab all into one faith. Or in other words a bit too universalistic and in some ways impractical.

Let me encouage you to investigate it a bit more:

We find ALL these Divine Messengers eminently compatible, leading to a most harmonious whole. I'm afraid I find "too unversalistic" an oxymoron.

And the Baha'i Faith is nothing if not practical (not to mention timely), as I'm sure you'll see if you look at it further!

Peace,

Bruce
 
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yusufevans

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No universalism is completely flawed beyond words.
And the idea that a MERCIFUL and LOVING God would send his children to basically roast in an open fire for all eternity because they were bad isn't flawed logic? Let a human father do that to his children, and he'll be locked up for the rest of his life or receive the death penalty.
 
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Booko

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Let me aks you this then, if there are a million ways to God would the Son of God have to die on the Cross?

Yes, because prophecy would not have been fulfilled if He hadn't. If prophecy weren't fulfilled, then God would be unreliable and untruthful, and we know that isn't true.

The Bible says He did it voluntarily.
Yes, and isn't that the greatest demonstration possible of His love for us? I'm awestruck when I reflect on that.

If He chose to Lay down His life for our sins when He didn't have to, that would make it the most senseless, idiotic act in the history of the world.
No it wouldn't. There have been many martyrs who could've chosen to escape martyrdom. All they had to do was lack integrity. Are you suggesting the martyrs wasted their lives?

Yet study His actions and you will see that Jesus didn't do anything stupid in His entire life. He was sinless, and always did everything perfect. Why would he He lead the only perfect life in the history of mankind, and then pull the bonehead move of the millennium, unless it is just as He said that He is the only way to get to heaven?
It's your assumption that He led the only perfect life in the history of mankind. I'm right there with you believing He led a perfect and sinless life, just not that He was the only one. I will go so far as to say there are very very few who could fit the bill. They don't come around often.

Not all religions can be correct, just note the many differences in outlooks on things.
Yes, just look at the difference between 2nd grade and 5th grade. Obviously 2nd grade is "false." There's no possibility those "grades" are all "true" and it's really just part of one big system of education.

One is a relationship with God, there is no other Religion in this world that can offer you that.
Judaism gave people a relationship with God before Christianity ever came on the scene. I read that in my Bible somewhere.

Is Christianity "false" then, since obviously it's different than Judaism?

You see, you actually do hold to a form of universalism yourself. It's just more limited than my version.

All other religions in this world can't gaurantee you anything, yet Christianity says you are certain you will be saved once you put your faith in Christ. All other religions say you just have to wait and see.
No they don't. Seriously, you need to study up on what other religions actually say if you're to avoid such obvious errors as this.

How can they all be correct when they have different creation stories?
Creation stories are man's attempt to understand where he came from, and if you know anything about story telling, you don't tell a story the same way regardless of the culture or age group you're speaking to. It's called addressing your audience.

And if you're going to make a comment about creation stories, from evidence in the world that God made and by using our brains that God gave us, we know those creation stories are not scientifically "true." They are not untrue though. They have spiritual truths and those are the point of those stories.

btw, Genesis has 2 creation stories, and they are not wholly compatible. If you want to maintain having "different" creation stories makes other religions false, you'll have to grapple with the incosistency of these 2 creation stories in your Bible first, because by your logic the Bible would be false itself since it has differing creation stories. Given a choice between rejecting the Bible and rejecting your logic, guess which one I'd prefer?

How can they all be correct when they have different guidelines? You see there are so many differences, that it can't all be correct, God never changes even by your logic.
1. God doesn't change but WE do. Surely you're not suggesting that God is such a poor teacher that He is incapable of teaching according to the needs and capacities of the class? Even mere humans can do that and recognize the necessity to do so. I believe God is way beyond smarter than us.

2. What God makes perfect, fallible humans can (and do) mess up over time.

No universalism is completely flawed beyond words.
Or perhaps your understanding of universalism is just limited.

Ah well, welcome to humanity, friend. We all have our limits. :)
 
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E.C.

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Not all religions can be correct, just note the many differences in outlooks on things. Christianity stands a part in two simple things. These are truly the most basic things that Christianity offers. One is a relationship with God, there is no other Religion in this world that can offer you that. And eternal security. All other religions in this world can't gaurantee you anything, yet Christianity says you are certain you will be saved once you put your faith in Christ. All other religions say you just have to wait and see. How can all religions be correct if the one says there is heaven and hell, the other says reincarnation etc. How can they all be correct when attonement of sins are completely different? How can they all be correct when they have different creation stories? How can they all be correct when they have different guidelines? You see there are so many differences, that it can't all be correct, God never changes even by your logic. So why then 5million completely different sets of rules according to your logic? No universalism is completely flawed beyond words.
"Eternal security" is actually heresy per Council of Jerusalem 1672 when the rest of Calvinism was also deemed heretical.

Besides, only American Protestants believe that anyway. Christ Himself said that "those who only utter 'Lord Lord' may not be saved".
Sorry, but the status of one's salvation, in a Christian view, can not be known until one has died and consequently judged.

And the idea that a MERCIFUL and LOVING God would send his children to basically roast in an open fire for all eternity because they were bad isn't flawed logic? Let a human father do that to his children, and he'll be locked up for the rest of his life or receive the death penalty.
Sometimes they send themselves in spite of how much the Father wants to help them.
 
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Livindesert

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Sometimes they send themselves in spite of how much the Father wants to help them.

Then the Father would be charged for negligence :( Although someone is never permanently in "hell" which is merely moving away from God, You can always move back toward him.
 
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Mess

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Yes, because prophecy would not have been fulfilled if He hadn't. If prophecy weren't fulfilled, then God would be unreliable and untruthful, and we know that isn't true.
You fail to answer the question though, there is no reason for Jesus to die if there is universalims. So there would be no reason for the prophecies, there are plenty of non-Messiah prophecies that prove the trustworthyness of God. Also Jesus says He is the only way to the Father, so by saying that isn't true, you are effectively saying God is untrustworthy. So what is it? Is He trustworthy or isn't He?
Yes, and isn't that the greatest demonstration possible of His love for us? I'm awestruck when I reflect on that.
Definitely is
No it wouldn't. There have been many martyrs who could've chosen to escape martyrdom. All they had to do was lack integrity. Are you suggesting the martyrs wasted their lives?
Jesus died for a reason, and the martyrs died for a reason. Yet Jesus died for a very specific reason. If he didn't die for that specific reason, which would be the case in universalism, then it was the most idiotic act in history because he could have escaped with integrity.
It's your assumption that He led the only perfect life in the history of mankind. I'm right there with you believing He led a perfect and sinless life, just not that He was the only one. I will go so far as to say there are very very few who could fit the bill. They don't come around often.
That I believe that isn't strange is it? I am a Christian on a Christian forum, and the Bible says this was the case, so I have no reason to doubt that. You are ofcourse free to differ opinion regarding this matter.
Yes, just look at the difference between 2nd grade and 5th grade. Obviously 2nd grade is "false." There's no possibility those "grades" are all "true" and it's really just part of one big system of education.
Poor analogy. 5th grade does not overwrite the 2nd grade teachings, it expand on them, yet the difference between the different religions are complete. There is hardly any common ground, as such there is no such thing as universalism.
Judaism gave people a relationship with God before Christianity ever came on the scene. I read that in my Bible somewhere.
Jesus told the Jews that they did not know God, because they had no relationship with Him. Besides the Jews don't belief in being saved through a relationship with God, they believein holding the law to be saved. Completely different bases.
Is Christianity "false" then, since obviously it's different than Judaism?
Christianity in my view, is the completion of the Abrahamic religions. Judaism was the right religion till 2000years ago, with the Birth of Jesus everything changed. However the Jews off all non-Christians are the closest to the truth.
You see, you actually do hold to a form of universalism yourself. It's just more limited than my version.
My only universalist view is that everybody can be saved, but only through Christ
Creation stories are man's attempt to understand where he came from, and if you know anything about story telling, you don't tell a story the same way regardless of the culture or age group you're speaking to. It's called addressing your audience.

And if you're going to make a comment about creation stories, from evidence in the world that God made and by using our brains that God gave us, we know those creation stories are not scientifically "true." They are not untrue though. They have spiritual truths and those are the point of those stories.

btw, Genesis has 2 creation stories, and they are not wholly compatible. If you want to maintain having "different" creation stories makes other religions false, you'll have to grapple with the incosistency of these 2 creation stories in your Bible first, because by your logic the Bible would be false itself since it has differing creation stories. Given a choice between rejecting the Bible and rejecting your logic, guess which one I'd prefer?
That is your opinion, an opinion I don't share. The entire Bible is given by God not something made up by man. Other creation stories however as you say are not given by God, hence the difference. As for science, ever heard of Creationism? In my opinion an extremely valid form of science, completely in agreement with The Bible, so no problems there I'm afraid.

And actually there are no two creation stories in the Bible, it's one and the same event. In Genesis 2, the author steps back in the temporal sequence to the sixth day, when God made man. In the first chapter, the author of Genesis presents the creation of man on the sixth day as the culmination or high point of creation. Then, in the second chapter, the author gives greater detail regarding the creation of man.

There are two primary claims of contradictions between Genesis chapters 1-2. The first is in regard to plant life. Genesis 1:11 records God creating vegetation on the third day. Genesis 2:5 states that prior to the creation of man “no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground.” So, which is it? Did God create vegetation on the third day before He created man (Genesis 1), or after He created man (Genesis 2)? The Hebrew words for “vegetation” are different in the two passages. Genesis 1:11 uses a term that refers to vegetation in general. Genesis 2:5 uses a more specific term that refers to vegetation that requires agriculture, i.e., a person to tend it, a gardener. The passages do not contradict. Genesis 1:11 speaks of God creating vegetation, and Genesis 2:5 speaks of God not causing “farmable” vegetation to grow until after He created man.

The second claimed contradiction is in regard to animal life. Genesis 1:24-25 records God creating animal life on the sixth day, before He created man. Genesis 2:19, in some translations, seems to record God creating the animals after He had created man. However, a good and plausible translation of Genesis 2:19-20 reads, “Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them, and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.” The text does not say that God created man, then created the animals, and then brought the animals to the man. Rather, the text says, “Now the LORD God had [already] created all the animals.” There is no contradiction. On the sixth day, God created the animals, then created man, and then brought the animals to the man, allowing the man to name the animals.

You say I should educate myself, I'd suggest you'd be wise to do the same thing.

1. God doesn't change but WE do. Surely you're not suggesting that God is such a poor teacher that He is incapable of teaching according to the needs and capacities of the class? Even mere humans can do that and recognize the necessity to do so. I believe God is way beyond smarter than us.

2. What God makes perfect, fallible humans can (and do) mess up over time.
God can teach anyone, but that does not change His truths. God has shown He can reach every person through Christianity, so yes he can reach everyone. It is not without reason we see Christianity all over the world, it be in Asia, it be in South America, the Western World, Africa, or even the Middle-East. Yes they all experience in a very slightly different way, set in their culture, but the Truths of God are still the same. And this is why I don't believe in Universalism, because it Changes His truths. It isn't in rituals, or things like that, it is in facts, and as such it can't be true, because God's truths NEVER change.
Or perhaps your understanding of universalism is just limited.

Ah well, welcome to humanity, friend. We all have our limits. :)
Or perhaps you don't see how flawed your reasoning is. Ah no worries, you'll learn to truth one day, I just hope for you before it's to late.
 
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BruceDLimber

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Our scriptures explain the differences between various religions quite clearly (please note that part below):

There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. The difference between the ordinances under which they abide should be attributed to the varying requirements and exigencies of the age in which they were revealed. All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity, were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Arise and, armed with the power of faith, shatter to pieces the gods of your vain imaginings, the sowers of dissension amongst you. Cleave unto that which draweth you together and uniteth you."
--(The Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, p. 114;
also Gleanings, CXI, pp. 217-8)

And please note that Christ died--as has happened to multiple Divine Messengers--because of the perversity of humans: had people not been acting in an ungodly manner, none of then would have been killed!

Peace, :)

Bruce
 
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peaceful soul

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But perhaps they were? It's not as if they're completely opposed to each other. At least with Jesus and Buddha they'd probably at least tolerate each other, as opposed to Jesus and Socrates, if the link I could show was any indication. It's quite amusing, just look up Jesus meets Socrates and I think you'll find it

You sound just like a Baha'i by trying to harmonize contrasting ideologies. One can always find common ground in almost everything, but what is normally not addressed (on purpose) is the contradictions that create the differences. Those differences tell us that they are different and incompatible. If you read about Jesus in the Bible, you will see that He doesn't tolerate false gospels. All other gospels/ideologies are false ones from His perspective.
 
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Nick T

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Let me encouage you to investigate it a bit more:

We find ALL these Divine Messengers eminently compatible, leading to a most harmonious whole. I'm afraid I find "too unversalistic" an oxymoron.

And the Baha'i Faith is nothing if not practical (not to mention timely), as I'm sure you'll see if you look at it further!

Peace,

Bruce

Didn't Buddha explicitly warn against believing in a creator-deity and even claim that an enlightened man is superior to any god? Dosn't this contradict Jesus and Mohammed?
I think it is in the Pali Canon where this is written although please don't quote me on that; I'm no buddhist scholar.
 
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Booko

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Didn't Buddha explicitly warn against believing in a creator-deity and even claim that an enlightened man is superior to any god? Dosn't this contradict Jesus and Mohammed?

The Buddha had some negative things to say about calling out to gods, certainly, and I recall reading a passage of an encounter he had with brahmans along those lines.

If He didn't emphasize or even discouraged focus on gods, it wasn't without reason. The religious fabric in which Buddhism arose was arguably littered with too much invoking of gods and too little paying attention to one's thoughts and actions. In that context, treating questions of the existence of God(s) sounds more like a course correction than a flat-out denial.

Besides, the Buddha still refers to:
There is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. If there were not this Unborn, this Unoriginated, this Uncreated, this Unformed, escape from the world of the born, the originated, the created, the formed, would not be possible.

But since there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, therefore is escape possible from the world of the born, the originated, the created, the formed.

((The Eightfold Path), Buddha, the Word (The Eightfold Path))

This certainly is no anthropomophized Western view of an immanent God, but I dunno, what else strikes you as "unborn, unoriginated, uncreated and unformed?"

I tried looking around and this is the only thing I found remotely related, but I think this isn't what you meant:

Conquering oneself is better than conquering other people;
not even a god, a spirit, nor Mara with Brahma,
could turn into a defeat the victory
of one who always practices the discipline of self-control.

(Buddhist, Dhammapada - Sayings of the Buddha 2 (tr. J. Richards))

I'm no buddhist scholar.

Me neither. I've just read a bit over the years and talked to people. And what I've read I'm pretty rusty on at this point. A friend of mine is investigating Buddhism at the moment though, so I guess I'll have to go do some homework again. :)
 
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ToHoldNothing

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You sound just like a Baha'i by trying to harmonize contrasting ideologies. One can always find common ground in almost everything, but what is normally not addressed (on purpose) is the contradictions that create the differences. Those differences tell us that they are different and incompatible. If you read about Jesus in the Bible, you will see that He doesn't tolerate false gospels. All other gospels/ideologies are false ones from His perspective.

Differences don't always mean contradictions. Contradictions are direct oppositional statements. Like a dog is a dog, and a dog is a cat. A "dog is a cat" contradicts "a dog is a dog". With Christianity, the difficulty arises as to what reflects a genuine teaching of Jesus Christ, since well, he didn't write any of the books in the entire canon and probably not even the non canonical stuff. It's all secondary and then we have further distance by language.

Difference also doesn't equal incompatibility. In fact, differences can actually enhance compatibility, though I would agree logically there tend to be basic requirements shared in common, even if the practice is different, the principles are virtually identical. But me and my girlfriend are not the same in personality or behavior, but we also do share similar interests. She might like shoujo manga more than I do, but that's not to say I completely distance myself from it. Similalrly, she might not like my overly analytical approach to religion, but she can appreciate it in some sense nonetheless, I'd imagine.

Focusing on similarities first and reflecting on differences as secondary is key to a dialogue that actually creates understanding and tolerance between the two or more parties involved.

If Jesus doesn't tolerate false gospels, why did he use a parable that spoke of Samaritans as good? And what about the Syro-Phoenician woman? I admit at best these are reflections of race, but honestly, he only seems to define false gospel as anything that contradicts "his words". Which honestly are all over the radar.

Turn the other cheek, but he comes to bring a sword.
 
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ToHoldNothing

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With Buddha's idea of the Unformed, Unborn, it seems to reflect a pantheistic idea at best, but honestly, the idea varies by Buddhists anyway. I've heard the Unformed and Unborn thing referred to as everyone's innate Buddha nature instead of anything that overarches existence in some immanent sense.
 
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Booko

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With Buddha's idea of the Unformed, Unborn, it seems to reflect a pantheistic idea at best, but honestly, the idea varies by Buddhists anyway

Yes, I've seen views range from decidedly theistic to "What difference does it make?"

I've heard the Unformed and Unborn thing referred to as everyone's innate Buddha nature instead of anything that overarches existence in some immanent sense.

Oh, personally I would read the Unformed and Unborn thing in a transcendent sense anyway.

Yes, I have heard the Buddha nature related to this as well, though not so often (not that I have much opportunity).

In Western religions ideas about God normally involved preexistence. Humans are generally not considered preexistent (figures like Jesus being the rare exception).

Do Eastern notions of the Buddha nature involve preexistence as well?

What are common ideas within Buddhism about the nature of the Universe or the nature of time?
 
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ToHoldNothing

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Do Eastern notions of the Buddha nature involve preexistence as well?

What are common ideas within Buddhism about the nature of the Universe or the nature of time?

The Buddha nature isn't pre existent, since it's not really possessing of defining characteristics. It isn't to be confused with Atman, since that is pre existent I'd say. With Buddha nature, it's our innate potential to realize enlightenment. It's the closest thing to a self we have in Buddhism, considering the whole anatta principle.

I can only speculate on the ideas of the Universe and time. With Buddhism on both of those counts, they're cyclical and not based in some notion of an ultimate end. There is the millenial idea of Maitreya and such, but it seems like with most Buddhism the beginning and end of time are non concerns
 
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Livindesert

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I know that the Buddhist temples I attended in Korea while Zen were also heavily influenced by what seemed to be a local form of Pure-land Buddhism. Anyways they got along great and held festivals with the local Christian church on the base I was at.
The feel of both Christian and Buddhist in prayer and worship was very similar and you did not feel an tension between the two.
 
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ToHoldNothing

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With Pure Land, there could be argued to be a similar type of feeling as a Christian heaven. Albeit there's not the evangelism that manifests in Nichiren, which I believe is about the only school of Buddhism that does so.

I can't say Christian missionaries were always very friendly with Buddhists. There 's a story where I don't remember teh source, but it goes something like this

A Catholic priest inquired to the head monk (Ch'an school in China, I believe) about why they worshipped statues of Buddha. The head monk then proceeded to smash the statue on the ground and the other monks continued as before.
 
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E.C.

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Then the Father would be charged for negligence :( Although someone is never permanently in "hell" which is merely moving away from God, You can always move back toward him.
Depends on what sort of Christian you ask.

Most Protestants and Roman Catholics would talk of hell being a place of fire, brimstone, eternal damnation and a bull holding a pitchfork. However, Orthodox Christians would say that hell is a state of being one is in when one rejects the Father. With the latter, the Father whether we're talking God or a human being here, can not be charged with negligence if the child leaves him. There hits a point where no matter what the kid will not accept the Father.

That is how people condemn themselves. Besides, we're just human beings who do not know how God judges so for all we know He may just a well pardon us all.
 
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peaceful soul

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"Eternal security" is actually heresy per Council of Jerusalem 1672 when the rest of Calvinism was also deemed heretical.

Besides, only American Protestants believe that anyway. Christ Himself said that "those who only utter 'Lord Lord' may not be saved".
Sorry, but the status of one's salvation, in a Christian view, can not be known until one has died and consequently judged.

It is definitely not a heresy. Do you think that we are in limbo until judgment? If so, then you contradict some of the NT teachings. One of the consequences of not knowing for sure is that your personal works will enter into the equation as part of your salvation. In my view, you will be depending upon something other than God's works to save you.
 
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E.C.

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It is definitely not a heresy. Do you think that we are in limbo until judgment? If so, then you contradict some of the NT teachings. One of the consequences of not knowing for sure is that your personal works will enter into the equation as part of your salvation. In my view, you will be depending upon something other than God's works to save you.
It's all a matter of time. Limbo is a former Roman Catholic idea, not an Orthodox one and certainly not a Protestant one.

There is "chronos" which is "man's time" and "kairos" which is "God's time".

Man is judged in kairos even though in chronos the body starts to decompose. The reason why there are two different times is because God just happens to be that powerful. Besides, if supposedly one's salvation is guaranteed than what would even be the point of God judging people after death?

The consistent teaching of Christianity for 2,000 years (give or take a few) has been that we only know where we end up after the body dies. It is only in the last 500 when anything to the contrary has been said. Do you think God would really allow His people to go 1,500 years under misguidance? Or allow His people to become arrogant should they know where they'll end up?
 
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