Discussion on the 28 fundamental beliefs....

[Laodicean]

OK. Thanks for humoring me. In fact, Mrs. White teaches that we will take to Heaven the characters we develop here on earth.

Do you have a quote that specifically states that the characters that grant us passage into Heaven are the characters that we develop, as in our sanctification process? I need to see where she says that our personal character growth is tied to our passport into Heaven.

I know she said that sanctification (character growth and overcoming of defects) is the work of a lifetime. But I don't think she ties the work of sanctification to the perfection of character required for entrance into Heaven. Indeed, the thief on the cross will be in Heaven, and he had no time to grow in sanctification. Instead, he was covered by Christ's righteousness.

So, BFA, if you have an EGW quote that says that the characters that we develop here on earth (sanctification) are the only characters that entitle us to heaven, then I will have to rethink my present understanding of what she was trying to express. But I doubt you have such a quote.

What entitles us to heaven is the perfect character of Jesus, which is our wedding garment that covers us at whatever stage of sanctification we might arrive at when death or the end of time meets us.

So, if our characters are not changed at Christ's second coming and if our character must be changed, then should we assume that our characters are changed prior to Christ's second coming?

Yes, our characters are expected to change -- go through growth and victory over flaws and defects, and that is the change expected of any growing Christian. But when it comes to qualification for entry into Heaven, only the garment of Christ's righteousness allows us entrance. As long as we belong to Jesus at death or at the end of time, His character is viewed as ours, and, of course, His perfect character will not ever need to be changed.

What type of character are we going to bring with us into Heaven?

BFA

We will be bringing Christ's character with us into Heaven. That is the ONLY way.

 

[Joe67]

Matt 5:46-48
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
KJV

This is the state of heart and mind that will be prepared to escape all the things that will come to pass on the face of the earth, and to stand before the son of man at his appearing.

This does not occur without suffering in well doing toward our oppressors.

All who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer oppression, daily.

Believing is the foundation out of which we are able to suffer shame for the name of Jesus, daily.

Believing is the little child experience.

Suffering shame for Jesus' name is the victory of youth.

Those who suffer for his name will be joint-heirs with him.

Peter thought he could suffer for Jesus through the power in his hand.

Judas thought he knew a better way than to suffer with Jesus.

Joe

 

[Byfaithalone1]

So, BFA, if you have an EGW quote that says that the characters that we develop here on earth (sanctification) are the only characters that entitle us to heaven, then I will have to rethink my present understanding of what she was trying to express. But I doubt you have such a quote.

I've previously shared some excerpts that have shaped my understanding. You can find them at post #531. However, I'm not here to shape your understanding. That's not something I could do even if I wanted to.

With that said, you seem to have restated what I wrote. I've indicated that Mrs. White wrote that we bring with us to heaven the character that we form here on earth and that Jesus does not change the character at His coming. If you'd like to read the context of what she wrote on these subjects, you can find it in 13MR82, 1891 and 5T 466, 1885.

I know she said that sanctification (character growth and overcoming of defects) is the work of a lifetime. But I don't think she ties the work of sanctification to the perfection of character required for entrance into Heaven. Indeed, the thief on the cross will be in Heaven, and he had no time to grow in sanctification. Instead, he was covered by Christ's righteousness.

What she writes is that obedience to the law is the condition of eternal life; that Christ can never put His robe of righteousness on a sinner to hide his deformity and that Christ's righteousness is imputed only to the obedient. If you'd like to read these concepts in their full context, explore Christ's Object Lessons, p. 391, Steps to Christ, p. 62, Our Higher Calling, p. 214 and a Review & Herald article from Sept. 21, 1886. I found all of these on the White Estate web site.

I'll leave this here for now with this quote:

“He told them that he had been pleading with his Father, and had offered to give his life a ransom, and take the sentence of death upon himself, that through him man might find pardon; that through the merits of his blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life.” (1SP 45.1)
​

Yes, our characters are expected to change -- go through growth and victory over flaws and defects, and that is the change expected of any growing Christian. But when it comes to qualification for entry into Heaven, only the garment of Christ's righteousness allows us entrance. As long as we belong to Jesus at death or at the end of time, His character is viewed as ours, and, of course, His perfect character will not ever need to be changed.

At what point do we stop sinning? Or will we bring sin with us into heaven?

We will be bringing Christ's character with us into Heaven. That is the ONLY way.

Do you agree or disagree with the portions of Mrs. White's writings that indicate that we bring with us to heaven the character that we form here on earth?

BFA

 

[Laodicean]

Laodicean said: So, BFA, if you have an EGW quote that says that the characters that we develop here on earth (sanctification) are the only characters that entitle us to heaven, then I will have to rethink my present understanding of what she was trying to express. But I doubt you have such a quote.
​

I've previously shared some excerpts that have shaped my understanding. You can find them at post #531. However, I'm not here to shape your understanding. That's not something I could do even if I wanted to.

Maybe you did not read my responses to every one of your quotes in #531. Some of your responses in this post seem to imply that you did not read and/or understand my responses. They are in #533 and 534.

In any event, none of those quotes say that the characters that we develop, are the characters that entitle us to Heaven.

Also, you may not be here to shape my understanding, but I am here to shape my understanding of truth, and if you can help, that's great.

With that said, you seem to have restated what I wrote. I've indicated that Mrs. White wrote that we bring with us to heaven the character that we form here on earth and that Jesus does not change the character at His coming. If you'd like to read the context of what she wrote on these subjects, you can find it in 13MR82, 1891 and 5T 466, 1885.

Yes, we bring with us the work we have done on our characters, but the distinction I am making is that this process of sanctification is not what entitles us to entrance into Heaven.

Do you care to address each point individually that I made to each of your quotes? That would help me to see where exactly you find disagreement.

Laodicean said: I know she said that sanctification (character growth and overcoming of defects) is the work of a lifetime. But I don't think she ties the work of sanctification to the perfection of character required for entrance into Heaven. Indeed, the thief on the cross will be in Heaven, and he had no time to grow in sanctification. Instead, he was covered by Christ's righteousness.
​

What she writes is that obedience to the law is the condition of eternal life; that Christ can never put His robe of righteousness on a sinner to hide his deformity and that Christ's righteousness is imputed only to the obedient. If you'd like to read these concepts in their full context, explore Christ's Object Lessons, p. 391, Steps to Christ, p. 62, Our Higher Calling, p. 214 and a Review & Herald article from Sept. 21, 1886. I found all of these on the White Estate web site.

Yes, obedience to the law is the condition of eternal life. That perfect obedience to the law is offered to us as a gift.

As to Christ putting His robe of righteousness on a sinner to hide his deformity, maybe you can go back to that quote and see my answer and address that answer directly, instead of repeating the quote again.

I'll leave this here for now with this quote:

“He told them that he had been pleading with his Father, and had offered to give his life a ransom, and take the sentence of death upon himself, that through him man might find pardon; that through the merits of his blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life.” (1SP 45.1)
​

​

and again, that obedience to the law of God is a gift given to us. We need to stop looking at our own works and getting discouraged because we are not perfect, and start trusting in the perfect obedience that is offered to us in Christ's righteousness.

Laodicean wrote: Yes, our characters are expected to change -- go through growth and victory over flaws and defects, and that is the change expected of any growing Christian. But when it comes to qualification for entry into Heaven, only the garment of Christ's righteousness allows us entrance. As long as we belong to Jesus at death or at the end of time, His character is viewed as ours, and, of course, His perfect character will not ever need to be changed.
​

At what point do we stop sinning? Or will we bring sin with us into heaven?

Have you ever wondered about this text? "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9. This doesn't seem to be true, does it, because we who have considered ourselves born again do continue to do what WE call sin.

The problem is not with the text, but with our understanding of what sin is. Sin is separation from God, which separation leads to sinful acts. But when we are born again, we are no longer considered to be sinners, and therefore, our actions, weak and failing and faulty though they are, are not considered to be sinful actions. They are defects of character which we work to overcome through the grace of God. So if your faith remains in Jesus, you are considered to be not a sinner and not committing sins.

Laodicean wrote: We will be bringing Christ's character with us into Heaven. That is the ONLY way.
​

Do you agree or disagree with the portions of Mrs. White's writings that indicate that we bring with us to heaven the character that we form here on earth?

BFA

I agree with EGW when she says that we bring with us to heaven the character that we form here on earth. The thief on the cross had no time to develop his character because he died on his cross, but yet, because he is covered by Christ's perfect character, he will be in Heaven, and he will take with him the character that he formed up until his death -- an undeveloped character.

Therefore, it is not how far along our character is developed that will entitle us entry to Heaven, but whether the work we have done on our characters is covered by Christ's perfect righteousness. So, yes, we will bring the characters that we have formed on earth to heaven, and we will be rewarded according to our works, but in God's eyes, He sees only Christ's perfect character, and that is what entitles us to Heaven.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Laodicean said: So, BFA, if you have an EGW quote that says that the characters that we develop here on earth (sanctification) are the only characters that entitle us to heaven, then I will have to rethink my present understanding of what she was trying to express. But I doubt you have such a quote.
​

Maybe you did not read my responses to every one of your quotes in #531. Some of your responses in this post seem to imply that you did not read and/or understand my responses. They are in #533 and 534.

In any event, none of those quotes say that the characters that we develop, are the characters that entitle us to Heaven.

Also, you may not be here to shape my understanding, but I am here to shape my understanding of truth, and if you can help, that's great.

Yes, we bring with us the work we have done on our characters, but the distinction I am making is that this process of sanctification is not what entitles us to entrance into Heaven.

Do you care to address each point individually that I made to each of your quotes? That would help me to see where exactly you find disagreement.

Laodicean said: I know she said that sanctification (character growth and overcoming of defects) is the work of a lifetime. But I don't think she ties the work of sanctification to the perfection of character required for entrance into Heaven. Indeed, the thief on the cross will be in Heaven, and he had no time to grow in sanctification. Instead, he was covered by Christ's righteousness.
​

Yes, obedience to the law is the condition of eternal life. That perfect obedience to the law is offered to us as a gift.

As to Christ putting His robe of righteousness on a sinner to hide his deformity, maybe you can go back to that quote and see my answer and address that answer directly, instead of repeating the quote again.
and again, that obedience to the law of God is a gift given to us. We need to stop looking at our own works and getting discouraged because we are not perfect, and start trusting in the perfect obedience that is offered to us in Christ's righteousness.

Laodicean wrote: Yes, our characters are expected to change -- go through growth and victory over flaws and defects, and that is the change expected of any growing Christian. But when it comes to qualification for entry into Heaven, only the garment of Christ's righteousness allows us entrance. As long as we belong to Jesus at death or at the end of time, His character is viewed as ours, and, of course, His perfect character will not ever need to be changed.
​

Have you ever wondered about this text? "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9. This doesn't seem to be true, does it, because we who have considered ourselves born again do continue to do what WE call sin.

The problem is not with the text, but with our understanding of what sin is. Sin is separation from God, which separation leads to sinful acts. But when we are born again, we are no longer considered to be sinners, and therefore, our actions, weak and failing and faulty though they are, are not considered to be sinful actions. They are defects of character which we work to overcome through the grace of God. So if your faith remains in Jesus, you are considered to be not a sinner and not committing sins.

Laodicean wrote: We will be bringing Christ's character with us into Heaven. That is the ONLY way.
​

I agree with EGW when she says that we bring with us to heaven the character that we form here on earth. The thief on the cross had no time to develop his character because he died on his cross, but yet, because he is covered by Christ's perfect character, he will be in Heaven, and he will take with him the character that he formed up until his death -- an undeveloped character.

Therefore, it is not how far along our character is developed that will entitle us entry to Heaven, but whether the work we have done on our characters is covered by Christ's perfect righteousness. So, yes, we will bring the characters that we have formed on earth to heaven, and we will be rewarded according to our works, but in God's eyes, He sees only Christ's perfect character, and that is what entitles us to Heaven.

Lao . . . I've read everything you've written in this thread. Thanks for your responses. I think we've covered 2 separate but related subjects and that we're really missing each other on both subjects.

I. Do we bring sin into Heaven?

Although you've responded to my posts, I haven't really seen a response to the concept that -- if we bring with us to heaven the character we form on earth -- we will bring with us to heaven our sinful characters . . . UNLESS our character is changed at some point from a sinful character to a sinless character. I've asked you when this occurs. If you're willing, I'd still welcome your candor on that.

You wrote: "Yes, we bring with us the work we have done on our characters, but the distinction I am making is that this process of sanctification is not what entitles us to entrance into Heaven."

I'm fine with that and we're probably already close to agreement on this point. However, this is not the point that is at issue for me and it truly does not speak to my concern. Rather, I'm concerned that -- if our characters aren't changed at Christ's second coming (and if we must bring with us to heaven the characters we formed on earth) -- then it would seem that we are bringing our sinful characters with us into heaven. In my mind, a sinful character that is covered by Christ's robe of righteousness is still a sinful character until it becomes a sinless character. This is problematic whether or not we believe that sanctification is what entitles us entrance into Heaven. You've appealed to the thief on the cross, but I sense that the thief on the cross will not sin in Heaven. If this is true, when was his sinful character replaced with a sinless one? This is the issue that we haven't connect on thus far.

II. Does God require of all of His subjects perfect obedience to all of His commands as the only title to Heaven?

In response to Mrs. White's teachings that obedience to the law is the condition of eternal life, you responded that "perfect obedience to the law is offered to us as a gift." However, note specifically that Mrs. White does not describe it here as a gift, but rather as an obligation of "the soul," of "the obedient," of "all of His subjects" and of "our first parents":

"Christ does not lessen the claims of the law. In unmistakable language He presents obedience to it as the condition of eternal life—the same condition that was required of Adam before his Fall. The Lord expects no less of the soul now than He expected of man in Paradise, perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness. The requirement under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement made in Eden—harmony with God’s law, which is holy, just, and good." (Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 391)

“God requires of all His subjects obedience, entire obedience to all His commandments. He demands now as ever perfect righteousness as the only title to heaven. Christ is our hope and our refuge. His righteousness is imputed only to the obedient!” (Review & Herald, Sept. 21, 1886)

“The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,—just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,—perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized." (Steps to Christ, p. 62)
​

I don't know how to explain away these passages under the auspices of "perfect obedience to the law is offered to us as a gift." In the above passages, Mrs. White is clearly referring to human obedience as the condition of eternal life. Consider also the following:

Is Mrs. White correct in asserting that it is left with us to remedy the defects of our chacters? If so, what impact does this statemetn have on your assertion that "perfect obedience to the law is offered to us as a gift."

Is Mrs. White correct in asserting that Christ can never put His robe of righteousness upon a sinner to hide his deformity? If so, what impact does this statement have on your assertion that "perfect obedience to the law is offered to us as a gift."

Is Mrs. White correct in asserting that, in order to let Jesus into our hearts, we must stop sinning? If so, how do you reconcile this into your world view?

And what do we do with Mrs. White's statement that "a nobel character is earned by individual effort" and that "we form the character" and that "we shall have to criticize ourselves closely and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain." In my mind, this indicates a disconnect with your idea that "perfect obedience to the law is offered to us as a gift."
​

You seem to have reconciled these ideas in your own mind. I was just hoping to learn more about how you reconciled them.

In any case, I may be beating a dead horse. If so, just let me know if you're ready to move on and I'll be happy to introduce the next fundamental belief.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

From time to time, I see a connection made between "obedience to the law" and "sanctication." Does the law sanctify us?

BFA

 

[Princessdi]

I have come to believe that the law is there to show us our need for a Savior and through Him be Sanctified. The law cannot save. Just my thoughts........

 

[VictorC]

I have come to believe that the law is there to show us our need for a Savior and through Him be Sanctified. The law cannot save. Just my thoughts........

I agree with you, and Galatians 3:24 supports this conclusion when it states "the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith".

 

[Laodicean]

Lao . . . I've read everything you've written in this thread. Thanks for your responses. I think we've covered 2 separate but related subjects and that we're really missing each other on both subjects.

I. Do we bring sin into Heaven?

Although you've responded to my posts, I haven't really seen a response to the concept that -- if we bring with us to heaven the character we form on earth -- we will bring with us to heaven our sinful characters . . . UNLESS our character is changed at some point from a sinful character to a sinless character. I've asked you when this occurs. If you're willing, I'd still welcome your candor on that.

You wrote: "Yes, we bring with us the work we have done on our characters, but the distinction I am making is that this process of sanctification is not what entitles us to entrance into Heaven."

I'm fine with that and we're probably already close to agreement on this point. However, this is not the point that is at issue for me and it truly does not speak to my concern. Rather, I'm concerned that -- if our characters aren't changed at Christ's second coming (and if we must bring with us to heaven the characters we formed on earth) -- then it would seem that we are bringing our sinful characters with us into heaven.

And that is the point I am trying to make, that when we accept Jesus into our lives, His righteousness becomes ours, and our characters are no longer considered to be sinful. That is what it means to be justified. Just as if we had never sinned.

Sin is separation from God so that once you are reconciled, you are no longer a sinner. You will still have weaknesses and failings and defects to be remedied, but these shortcomings are no longer sins. You are no longer "practicing sin." Instead we begin "stern, hard battles against our inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil" but in a totally different climate than before conversion. We struggle to overcome these defects, not as sinners, but as saints. Not to save ourselves, because we are already saved, but because we are saved and demonstrate our faith by our works.

In my mind, a sinful character that is covered by Christ's robe of righteousness is still a sinful character until it becomes a sinless character.

I think that it is all in your mind, not in reality. God does not pretend. When He says, "I give you My Righteousness," it is a reality, not a sham.

I think you are still contemplating yourself and your own works, instead of beholding Jesus. By beholding we are changed. God already deems us sinless in Christ. Believe this.

This is problematic whether or not we believe that sanctification is what entitles us entrance into Heaven. You've appealed to the thief on the cross, but I sense that the thief on the cross will not sin in Heaven. If this is true, when was his sinful character replaced with a sinless one? This is the issue that we haven't connect on thus far.

The thief on the cross died believing in Jesus, and so when he is resurrected, his character (given to Him by Jesus) will already be in place. As to the exact moment when the defects and flaws of character will fall away forever and only the perfect character of Jesus remains, I can't tell you for sure, but I imagine it will be either at death, or at resurrection, or if we are alive at the end of time, it will be at the moment of translation.

II. Does God require of all of His subjects perfect obedience to all of His commands as the only title to Heaven?

Yes.

In response to Mrs. White's teachings that obedience to the law is the condition of eternal life, you responded that "perfect obedience to the law is offered to us as a gift." However, note specifically that Mrs. White does not describe it here as a gift, but rather as an obligation of "the soul," of "the obedient," of "all of His subjects" and of "our first parents".

Yes, it is an obligation if we are to enter eternal life.

"Christ does not lessen the claims of the law. In unmistakable language He presents obedience to it as the condition of eternal life—the same condition that was required of Adam before his Fall. The Lord expects no less of the soul now than He expected of man in Paradise, perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness. The requirement under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement made in Eden—harmony with God’s law, which is holy, just, and good." (Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 391)

​

Yes, perfect obedience is indeed required of our poor hapless souls. But that perfect obedience has been worked out for us by Christ and offered to us as the wedding garment. Believe and accept.

“God requires of all His subjects obedience, entire obedience to all His commandments. He demands now as ever perfect righteousness as the only title to heaven. Christ is our hope and our refuge. His righteousness is imputed only to the obedient!” (Review & Herald, Sept. 21, 1886)

​

"Christ is our hope and our refuge." You could have bolded that sentence, too. It would help balance things. And yes, His righteousness is imputed only to the obedient. Obedient to what command? The command to believe and live. Whoever believes shall be saved.

“The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,—just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,—perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized." (Steps to Christ, p. 62)

​

Yes, perfect obedience is required...which none of us have to give. The only place to obtain this perfect obedience is in relationship with Jesus.

I don't know how to explain away these passages under the auspices of "perfect obedience to the law is offered to us as a gift." In the above passages, Mrs. White is clearly referring to human obedience as the condition of eternal life.

I don't see where she says that it is perfect human obedience that is the condition of eternal life? She says perfect obedience is required, yes. But where does this perfect obedience come from? Jesus.

Consider also the following:

Is Mrs. White correct in asserting that it is left with us to remedy the defects of our chacters? If so, what impact does this statemetn have on your assertion that "perfect obedience to the law is offered to us as a gift."
​

Yes, it is left with us to remedy the defects of our characters. This is the work left us to do after being saved. Note the term "defects of character," which you are probably calling "sins." The distinction here, though, is that remedying our defects of character is not for the purpose of gaining us eternal life. In order to gain eternal life, perfect obedience to the law is required, and that tall order has been filled by Jesus and it is now given to us freely.

Is Mrs. White correct in asserting that Christ can never put His robe of righteousness upon a sinner to hide his deformity? If so, what impact does this statement have on your assertion that "perfect obedience to the law is offered to us as a gift."

​

I think I answered this in #533 or 534. I believe the context here is that of an unrepentant sinner who is not yet reconciled to God. Such a person has not come to Jesus to receive Christ's robe of righteousness and so it can be said that Christ can never put His robe of righteousness upon a sinner. Remember a sinner is one who is not yet reconciled to God.

Is Mrs. White correct in asserting that, in order to let Jesus into our hearts, we must stop sinning? If so, how do you reconcile this into your world view?

​

To stop sinning, we must be reconciled to God, for sin is separation from God. Through the mediation of Jesus, we can be reconciled to God, at which point, we have stopped sinning, or, in other words, stopped being separated from God. This, I believe, is the idea that Mrs. White was trying to present for many years, and was not expressing it clearly until she heard the message more clearly presented by Waggoner and Jones, and she said, "This is what I've been trying to say, lo these many years." We need to allow her to clarify herself.

And what do we do with Mrs. White's statement that "a nobel character is earned by individual effort" and that "we form the character" and that "we shall have to criticize ourselves closely and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain." In my mind, this indicates a disconnect with your idea that "perfect obedience to the law is offered to us as a gift."

​

yes, you are right, there is definitely a disconnect. There are two different concepts going on here.

There is the development of character through our struggles against cultivated and inherited tendencies to evil. This work is not meant to be our passport into Heaven, but is what comes along with accepting God's gift of grace.

Then there is the wedding garment of Christ's righteousness, His perfect obedience that is offered to us as our qualification for eternal life.

You seem to have reconciled these ideas in your own mind. I was just hoping to learn more about how you reconciled them.

In any case, I may be beating a dead horse. If so, just let me know if you're ready to move on and I'll be happy to introduce the next fundamental belief.

BFA

No, I don't think the horse is anywhere near dead. It helps me to study deeper into why I believe what I believe, and your questions make me do the work. Thank you.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Lao . . . . I want to tread lightly here. I understand that the writings of Mrs. White have a different meaning for you than they do for me. In the past, my comments about Mrs. White have been hurtful to people who viewed her writings differently than I do. Please let me know if I cross a line. It isn't my intent to be hurtful.

Also, please know that I'm not on a witch hunt. I did not meet Ellen White and I don't pretend to know her. I don't know what motivated her. I am simply reading what she wrote and agreeing or disagreeing with her scholarship. It isn't my intent to make this any more personal than that.

And that is the point I am trying to make, that when we accept Jesus into our lives, His righteousness becomes ours, and our characters are no longer considered to be sinful. That is what it means to be justified. Just as if we had never sinned.

It is true that, through justification, we are declared righteous. However, it is simultaneously true that all sin. In fact, there is no truth in the man who claims he does not sin. So, covered by Christ's robe of righteousness or not, we sin. For this reason, we continue to be in need of a Savior -- covered or not -- because we still sin.

Therefore, since we still sin, it seems to me that there are 3 possibilities:

1. We will continue to sin, even in Heaven (I don't know of anyone who has endorsed this position).
2. The corruptible will put on incorruption at the trump of God (Paul seems to take this position).
3. Our characters must be changed prior to the close of probation so we can stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator prior to the trump of God (Mrs. White seems to take this position).
​

The thief on the cross died believing in Jesus, and so when he is resurrected, his character (given to Him by Jesus) will already be in place. As to the exact moment when the defects and flaws of character will fall away forever and only the perfect character of Jesus remains, I can't tell you for sure, but I imagine it will be either at death, or at resurrection, or if we are alive at the end of time, it will be at the moment of translation.

Isn't it true that Mrs. White teaches that our characters will not be changed when Christ returns and that we will take with us to Heaven the characters that we form here on earth? Your position seems to be different than hers.

"Christ is our hope and our refuge." You could have bolded that sentence, too. It would help balance things.

Since I view one statement as true and the other as false, it isn't very helpful in my mind to try and balance truth and error. However, I do understand that you view it differently.

And yes, His righteousness is imputed only to the obedient. Obedient to what command? The command to believe and live. Whoever believes shall be saved.

The context of the statement relates to "the law," not "believe and live."

Yes, it is left with us to remedy the defects of our characters. This is the work left us to do after being saved.

I must respectfully disagree. It is not left with us. The phrase "left with us" suggests that this is solely our work to complete. We do not remedy the defects of our characters on our own.

To stop sinning, we must be reconciled to God, for sin is separation from God.

If we must stop sinning in order to be reconciled with God, how is that we are able to stop sinning?

We need to allow her to clarify herself.

If so, then what does this suggest about her earlier "I was shown" statements?

BFA

 

[Laodicean]

Lao . . . . I want to tread lightly here. I understand that the writings of Mrs. White have a different meaning for you than they do for me. In the past, my comments about Mrs. White have been hurtful to people who viewed her writings differently than I do. Please let me know if I cross a line. It isn't my intent to be hurtful.

Okay, I hear you, BFA. We don't have common ground when it comes to EGW. So there's no use in basing our discussions on her writings. I had thought that, hopefully, if you could view her differently, that we would be able to gather insights gleaned from her inspiration, but apparently that is not to be. My explanations have not been persuasive enough to encourage you to use her as a source. But I do think that many of the basic insights I have gained from Mrs. White can also be found in Scripture, so let's stay with that source......

.....or wait! Do you also distrust the Bible as an authoritative source? I don't remember what your position is on that.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Okay, I hear you, BFA. We don't have common ground when it comes to EGW.

No, but I have noticed that we do have common ground in other areas.

So there's no use in basing our discussions on her writings. I had thought that, hopefully, if you could view her differently, that we would be able to gather insights gleaned from her inspiration, but apparently that is not to be. My explanations have not been persuasive enough to encourage you to use her as a source. But I do think that many of the basic insights I have gained from Mrs. White can also be found in Scripture, so let's stay with that source......

That's fine. I've been reading the writings of Ellen G. White for decades. My questions about her writings began when my brother-in-law questioned her writings nearly ten years ago. My conclusions regarding the writings of Ellen G. White were not reached quickly; they're based on my review of dozens of her books. That doesn't qualify me as an expert, but it certainly doesn't qualify me as ignorant either. You're not talking to a guy who simply pulled some quotes from an anti-EGW website! However, I am happy to agree to disagree about this and move on to something else.

.....or wait! Do you also distrust the Bible as an authoritative source?

I do. On this issue (and others as well), my perspective differs from Avonia's, Aza's and Stormy's.

BFA

 

[Laodicean]

I've been reading the writings of Ellen G. White for decades. My questions about her writings began when my brother-in-law questioned her writings nearly ten years ago. My conclusions regarding the writings of Ellen G. White were not reached quickly; they're based on my review of dozens of her books. That doesn't qualify me as an expert, but it certainly doesn't qualify me as ignorant either. You're not talking to a guy who simply pulled some quotes from an anti-EGW website! However, I am happy to agree to disagree about this and move on to something else.

And, like you, I've read the majority of EGW's books, including the nine volumes of her testimonies to church members, plus quite a bit of her "unofficial" writings. I've also read the writings of her critics. And as of today, I remain convinced that Mrs. White was inspired by God, and that the criticisms leveled against her are weak, if not invalid.

But, hey, I do respect that you have reached a different conclusion, so I guess we will just move on.

Laodicean asked: .....or wait! Do you also distrust the Bible as an authoritative source?
​

I do. On this issue (and others as well), my perspective differs from Avonia's, Aza's and Stormy's.

BFA

You do? Are you saying that you do distrust the Bible as well? If that is the case, then what trustworthy standard or authority can we both appeal to in order to be on the same page in a discussion? Nature? Emotions? Reasoning power? And in what way does your perspective differ from the "recently departed"?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

You do?

Sorry if I was unclear in my last post. Yes, I view the Bible as authoritative.

Are you saying that you do distrust the Bible as well?

That is the opposite of what I am saying. Sorry if my previous response was confusing.

If that is the case, then what trustworthy standard or authority can we both appeal to in order to be on the same page in a discussion? Nature? Emotions? Reasoning power?

It seems that these questions might be useful if I doubted that the Bible is trustworthy. Since I have no such doubts, I think we may be headed down a dead-end path here.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Here's the next fundamental belief:

25. Second Coming of Christ:
The second coming of Christ is the blessed hope of the church, the grand climax of the gospel. The Saviour's coming will be literal, personal, visible, and worldwide. When He returns, the righteous dead will be resurrected, and together with the righteous living will be glorified and taken to heaven, but the unrighteous will die. The almost complete fulfillment of most lines of prophecy, together with the present condition of the world, indicates that Christ's coming is imminent. The time of that event has not been revealed, and we are therefore exhorted to be ready at all times. (Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:9-11; Matt. 24:14; Rev. 1:7; Matt. 24:43, 44; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2:8; Rev. 14:14-20; 19:11-21; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; 1 Thess. 5:1-6.)
​

BFA

Q: How does a person make himself ready?

BFA

 

[Joe67]

Q: How does a person make himself ready?

BFA

BFA,

Luke 20:34-36
34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. KJV

Luke 21:34-36
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. KJV

Joe

 

[Laodicean]

Here's the next fundamental belief:

25. Second Coming of Christ:
The second coming of Christ is the blessed hope of the church, the grand climax of the gospel. The Saviour's coming will be literal, personal, visible, and worldwide. When He returns, the righteous dead will be resurrected, and together with the righteous living will be glorified and taken to heaven, but the unrighteous will die. The almost complete fulfillment of most lines of prophecy, together with the present condition of the world, indicates that Christ's coming is imminent. The time of that event has not been revealed, and we are therefore exhorted to be ready at all times. (Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:9-11; Matt. 24:14; Rev. 1:7; Matt. 24:43, 44; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2:8; Rev. 14:14-20; 19:11-21; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; 1 Thess. 5:1-6.)
​

Q: How does a person make himself ready?


BFA

It starts with....

"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:31

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9

....which means we are ready....

"Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not." Luke 12:40

....as long as the following doesn't happen....

"But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." Luke 12:45,46

"Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8

.....but if we hold onto the faith we first had in Christ, then that faith will shows itself as follows .....

"Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Revelation 14:12

.....and how is this patience achieved, and how are the commandments of God kept, and what is the result of having the faith of Jesus?.....

"And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. Revelation" 19:6-8

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Interesting. So does God make us ready or do we make ourselves ready?

BFA

 

[Pythons]

And, like you, I've read the majority of EGW's books, including the nine volumes of her testimonies to church members, plus quite a bit of her "unofficial" writings. I've also read the writings of her critics. And as of today, I remain convinced that Mrs. White was inspired by God, and that the criticisms leveled against her are weak, if not invalid.

What is weak or invalid about the many documented cases whereas...
...the statements of Ellen White were "corrected" subsequent to her death.
...So that what you are reading today does NOT reflect what she said?

One example out of many is where, prior to the I.J. teaching...
...Ellen affirmed God told her "The Shut Door" teaching was correct.


This seems to be cheating in that there becomes NO WAY to test a prophet.....
...Because once the prophetic statement was made it was altered over and over again.
...So that today a devout SDA can point to what is in print "today".
...And claim prophetic inspiration for Ellen White.

But, hey, I do respect that you have reached a different conclusion, so I guess we will just move on.

Laodicean asked: .....or wait! Do you also distrust the Bible as an authoritative source?
​

You do? Are you saying that you do distrust the Bible as well? If that is the case, then what trustworthy standard or authority can we both appeal to in order to be on the same page in a discussion? Nature? Emotions? Reasoning power? And in what way does your perspective differ from the "recently departed"?

As was demonstrated by Walter Martin SDA's do not appeal to Scripture...
...They appeal to Ellen White's interpretation of Scripture.
...That is what "tests".

Examples of this in practice....
...The following quotes are from the General Conference archives.
...Which can be confirmed simply by clicking the link below.

The Bible is an infallible guide, but it needs to be infallibly interpreted to avoid confusion and division.
​

When will the people of God cease trusting their own wisdom?
When will they come to the place where they will cease to measure,
construe, and interpret, by their own reason, what God says to them
through His appointed channel? When we come to the place where we place no trust in man nor in the wisdom of men, but unquestionably
accept of and act upon what God says through this gift,
then will the spirit of prophecy, as set before us in the Bible AND as witnessed
in the present manifestations of this gift be confirmed among us
and become, in fact, the counselor, guide, and final court of appeal​

among God's people
http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH19710603-V148-22__B.pdf#view=fit

The Bible and the writtings of Ellen White are INNERANT

She was inspired to write that "the gospel of health is to be firmly linked with the ministry of the Word. It is the Lord's design that the restoring influence of health reform shall be a part of the last great effort to proclaimthe gospel message."— ​

​

​

​

Evangelism,​

p. 515.

 

[Laodicean]

Interesting. So does God make us ready or do we make ourselves ready?

BFA

We make ourselves ready by coming to God to have Him make us ready.