Give me one beneficial mutation.

MoonLancer

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Gene duplication is not new code.
it is when the order changes.

You are using fallacious reasoning.

so if

that sun is hot
is replaced with

that son is hot
Its not new code? its not conveying something entirely different?

In my opinion this thread has put your honesty into question. show what "new information" looks like or stop committing logical fallacy.
 
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Heaven-Sent

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Birds evolved through slow successive changes. They did not mutate wings. That would be magic.

In other words, birds evolved wings through many many (thousands, millions etc...) of mutations and not just through a single mutation.

Why would a creature slowly mutate developing wings? The intermediate process would be of no value to them.
 
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MoonLancer

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Hopefully my next son will be born with half wings, so maybe my grandchildren will be able to fly.
please show evidence that scientists claim wings form in 2 or 3 generations.

Anyway lets just hope your son is at least born with half of something you seemly lack.
 
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Heaven-Sent

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please show evidence that scientists claim wings form in 2 or 3 generations.

Anyway lets just hope your son is at least born with half of something you seemly lack.

So if they weren't born with half wings, I'm assuming you believe it took millions of years to evolve wings. It kept mutating and mutating, generation after generation, and finally grew wings. Do you understand the probabilty of this?
 
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Flatland

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Wow what? Isn't this what happened millions of years ago? Why would it be any different today? It would be very beneficial if I could fly.


What happened millions of years ago is that organisms evolved through many small successive changes not through big sudden changes. What you advocate is pure magic.

You have repeatedly demonstrated that you lack even the most basic understanding of evolution. Yet you think you can overturn an established scientific theory and all the experts in the field? You have to be kidding me right?
 
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MoonLancer

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So if they weren't born with half wings, I'm assuming you believe it took millions of years to evolve wings. It kept mutating and mutating, generation after generation, and finally grew wings. Do you understand the probabilty of this?

Its only improbable when you try and calculate as a single generation gaining enough and exact mutations to create a wing (or some gliding appendage).

Over time one only has to calculate the probability of each generations mutation. while the generations add up the probability does not because each generation is having this feature selected for.


with slow changes and small steps, anything is possible.
 
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Mike Elphick

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In every case given here, the mutation involves existing code. Show me the addition of new code. To put it simply:

A car has many parts. To make it run faster, louder, or more efficiently I can change the arrangement of parts, add more of the existing parts, or take parts away. In every case I am not adding anything new to the car.

This is how all of the mutations listed in this thread have been. I've yet to see something with new code.

I see you are not persuaded, and I don't blame you.

First of all, evolution can only occur through modification of genetic material that already exists (even if this is from other organisms), so you don't suddenly get new parts — otherwise you're calling for some magic intervention. You have been given examples showing how novel genes can arise from duplication of existing genes, which are then free to be modified by mutation to perform new functions.

Secondly, you're probably wondering how on earth the examples given can explain the evolution of, say, fish into humans. You're surely thinking that you'd need tens of thousands of new genes. This is perhaps what biologists thought before the advent of gene sequencing. The surprise was the finding that 96% of the of 20,000–25,000 or so human genes were identical to those of the chimp. Therefore most of the differences in DNA lie in regions that do not code for genes, but instead exist in sequences that control how gene-coding regions are activated and read.

When we look at different mammals, there are very few fundamental biochemical dissimilarities (i.e. protein-coding genes) between different species — the biggest differences are in form and structure and these can be traced to differences in the patterning of embryological development. Thus biodiversity is due to alterations in gene regulation rather than in differences in genes — so evolution doesn't necessarily need new genes (or 'new information' as creationists would call it):-

Evolutionary developmental biology (evolution of development or informally, evo-devo) is a field of biology that compares the developmental processes of different organisms to determine the ancestral relationship between them, and to discover how developmental processes evolved. It addresses the origin and evolution of embryonic development; how modifications of development and developmental processes lead to the production of novel features, such as the evolution of feathers; the role of developmental plasticity in evolution; how ecology impacts in development and evolutionary change; and the developmental basis of homoplasy and homology. (My bolding)
Evolutionary Developmental Biology

Thus mammals didn't evolve on the basis of generating completely new protein-coding genes — it was mainly by changes in the timing and relative activity of existing genes and regulatory factors expressed during embryological development:-

Development and the origin of novelty
Among the more surprising and, perhaps, counterintuitive (from a neo-Darwinian viewpoint) results of recent research in evolutionary developmental biology is that the diversity of body plans and morphology in organisms across many phyla are not necessarily reflected in diversity at the level of the sequences of genes, including those of the developmental genetic toolkit and other genes involved in development. Indeed, as Gerhart and Kirschner have noted, there is an apparent paradox: "where we most expect to find variation, we find conservation, a lack of change".

Even within a species, the occurrence of novel forms within a population does not generally correlate with levels of genetic variation sufficient to account for all morphological diversity. For example, there is significant variation in limb morphologies amongst salamanders and in differences in segment number in centipedes, even when the respective genetic variation is low.

A major question then, for evo-devo studies, is: If the morphological novelty we observe at the level of different clades is not always reflected in the genome, where does it come from? Apart from neo-Darwinian mechanisms such as mutation, translocation and duplication of genes, novelty may also arise by mutation-driven changes in gene regulation. The finding that much biodiversity is not due to differences in genes, but rather to alterations in gene regulation, has introduced an important new element into evolutionary theory. Diverse organisms may have highly conserved developmental genes, but highly divergent regulatory mechanisms for these genes. Changes in gene regulation are "second-order" effects of genes, resulting from the interaction and timing of activity of gene networks, as distinct from the functioning of the individual genes in the network.

The discovery of the homeotic Hox gene family in vertebrates in the 1980s allowed researchers in developmental biology to empirically assess the relative roles of gene duplication and gene regulation with respect to their importance in the evolution of morphological diversity. Several biologists, including Sean B. Carroll of the University of Wisconsin–Madison suggest that "changes in the cis-regulatory systems of genes" are more significant than "changes in gene number or protein function". These researchers argue that the combinatorial nature of transcriptional regulation allows a rich substrate for morphological diversity, since variations in the level, pattern, or timing of gene expression may provide more variation for natural selection to act upon than changes in the gene product alone.

Epigenetic alterations of gene regulation or phenotype generation that are subsequently consolidated by changes at the gene level constitute another class of mechanisms for evolutionary innovation. Epigenetic changes include modification of the genetic material due to methylation and other reversible chemical alteration, as well as nonprogrammed remolding of the organism by physical and other environmental effects due to the inherent plasticity of developmental mechanisms. The biologists Stuart A. Newman and Gerd B. Müller have suggested that organisms early in the history of multicellular life were more susceptible to this second category of epigenetic determination than are modern organisms, providing a basis for early macroevolutionary changes.
Development and the origin of novelty

This is explained more 'scientifically' in the following article:-

Abstract
Genomic instructions for development are encoded in arrays of regulatory DNA. These specify large networks of interactions among genes producing transcription factors and signaling components. The architecture of such networks both explains and predicts developmental phenomenology. Although network analysis is yet in its early stages, some fundamental commonalities are already emerging. Two such are the use of multigenic feedback loops to ensure the progressivity of developmental regulatory states and the prevalence of repressive regulatory interactions in spatial control processes. Gene regulatory networks make it possible to explain the process of development in causal terms and eventually will enable the redesign of developmental regulatory circuitry to achieve different outcomes.
More here.

Evolutionary biologists don't have all the answers and evo-devo is a relatively new area of investigation, but it does explain the appearance of novelty on the basis of developmental plasticity.
 
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Heaven-Sent

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What happened millions of years ago is that organisms evolved through many small successive changes not through big sudden changes. What you advocate is pure magic.

You have repeatedly demonstrated that you lack even the most basic understanding of evolution. Yet you think you can overturn an established scientific theory and all the experts in the field? You have to be kidding me right?

Your right, I wish I understood the theory of evolution and how something with no wings can suddenly decide it needs wing, so it slowly evolves them over millions of years.

If there is no greater power, or life force driving the change of the DNA to gradually grow wings, it would be left entirely to chance. In that case the chances of millions of succesful mutations to gradually evolve wings would take more than a trillion years, if at all.
 
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Exiledoomsayer

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1. Mutation - A relatively permanent change in hereditary material involving either a physical change in chromosome relations or a biochemical change in the codons that make up genes.

2. A 5 legged horse.

3. Beneficial - Receiving or entitling one to receive an advantage.

Note: A 5 legged horse will not run faster then a 4 legged horse. An advantage would be for a horse to mutate wings and be able to fly. I would trade my car in for one of those bad boys. Scientists, get to work!

I would prefer a real world example of #2 Im sure you can find one all mutations are harmfull or neutral right? please endulge me.
 
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Mike Elphick

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If there is no greater power, or life force driving the change of the DNA to gradually grow wings, it would be left entirely to chance. In that case the chances of millions of succesful mutations to gradually evolve wings would take more than a trillion years, if at all.

But it's not "left entirely to chance". There is a feed-back mechanism, which is fully accepted by creationists, and it's called — natural selection:-

Natural selection is the process by which traits become more or less common in a population due to consistent effects upon the survival or reproduction of their bearers. It is a key mechanism of evolution.

The natural genetic variation within a population of organisms may cause some individuals to survive and reproduce more successfully than others in their current environment. For example, the peppered moth exists in both light and dark colors in the United Kingdom, but during the industrial revolution many of the trees on which the moths rested became blackened by soot, giving the dark-colored moths an advantage in hiding from predators. This gave dark-colored moths a better chance of surviving to produce dark-colored offspring, and in just a few generations the majority of the moths were dark. Factors which affect reproductive success are also important, an issue which Charles Darwin developed in his ideas on sexual selection.
Natural selection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Mike Elphick

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Exiledoomsayer said:
I would prefer a real world example of #2 Im sure you can find one all mutations are harmfull or neutral right? please endulge me.

#2 is real Google 5 legged cow

These examples of deformities are not due to heritable genetic mutations, but are caused by various developmental anomalies, which might result from damage to the embryo or include organs from a conjoined twin. My cousin was found to have hair and teeth in her body from her identical twin.
 
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Heaven-Sent

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These examples of deformities are not due to heritable genetic mutations, but are caused by various developmental anomalies, which might result from damage to the embryo or include organs from a conjoined twin. My cousin was found to have hair and teeth in her body from her identical twin.

None the less it is a mutation.
 
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