Creation and PreAdamites

[shernren]

I'm not sure that they were initially cast down, in fact, the Scriptures seem to suggest that the angels who followed Satan just left:

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Jude 1:6)​

He may be referring to Revelations 12:4, in which the "third of the stars of heaven" is commonly interpreted as the host of angels who followed Satan's rebellion - they are said to be "swept down" or "cast down" by the tail of the great red dragon.

 

[mark kennedy]

He may be referring to Revelations 12:4, in which the "third of the stars of heaven" is commonly interpreted as the host of angels who followed Satan's rebellion - they are said to be "swept down" or "cast down" by the tail of the great red dragon.

The initial movement, for lack of a better word, probably did not end up in them being cast down. My guess is that they were given time to repent but that is just a guess. At any rate, I think Satan and his angels are kicked out fairly regularly but they can come back. The scene in Revelations (if you'll pardon the plural) is the final removal of them from heaven or the heavenly realm.

Satan even after his five I wills, managed to come back and even have an audience. I don't think he ever comes into the presence of God (perhaps a technicality) but even late in the tribulation he is slandering the saints.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[TheSacredSecrets]

Divine137,

First the issue isn't if there was a pre-adamic angels created. They were created NOT ON NOR FOR EARTH...HUMANS or MAN is the EARTHLING.

Dude, you completely missed my point here. And your arguments are faulty. I used angels as an indication that God did create beings prior to humans (see Job for proof of this if you need it) and, therefore by extension, that God could easily create another creation other than Adam prior to Adam.
The fault in your logic is when, later you say that Satan didn't rule over angles (I quote: "No where in Scripture show that Lucifer ruled any angels prior to rebelion.") Clearly, as a covering angel, Lucifer ruled over something, and by your reasoning, there are only angels and humans, so then, if not angels then humans (by your reasoning). Further, you say that Lucifer was not a fallen being at the time of the creation of Adam (I quote: "The rebellion took place POSTadam, not PRE."), so this means that a holy and righteous angel with perfect wisdom tempted Adam and Eve to sin? Further, Job demonstrates that Lucifer is acting as an Accuser (i.e. the Accuser of the Brethren) accusing both Job AND God; but you say that because of his (Satan's) appearance in heaven it demonstrates the he is righteous and holy? This is clearly an impossibility. Simply because he appeared before God doesn't mean he is guiltless and sinless, there is another option here of which the book of Job is attempting to demonstrate. This reason will clearly answer why Lucifer, as a sinful being, was allowed into heaven. Therefore, since Lucifer was indeed a fallen being (fallen from Grace, not from heaven - the two are not the same) prior to the creation of Adam and Eve, by your logic and my proof, Satan ruled over non-angelic beings on earth before Adam and Eve.

Even further, your statement that there was only one flood (I quote: "It happened prior to the FIRST AND ONLY world wide flood...in the days of Noah.") is obviously erroneous, unless of course, you call the fact that Genesis 1:9 clearly describes that waters covered the entire earth, something other than a flood.

And more, given the fact that Lucifer sinned prior to Adam, this (I quote) "His sin of tricking the world through trades and trickery took all these years and is still in affect" clearly demonstrates that not only his trades took more than "a few days" prior to the creation of Adam it proves that there was a creation on earth prior to Adam. The fact that you have to twist Satan into a righteous being that can tempt Adam and Eve AND Accuse both Job and God of sin and NOT be a sinful fallen angel clearly demonstrates that you have misunderstood these verses.

Furthermore, there is a definite reason why the period of man is only 6000 years with clear divisions every two thousand years (or two days). And that fact, a fact that Peter describes when he says that with God 1 day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day, clearly delineates God's purpose for man, a purpose the book of Job talks about and why David said that man was created a little lower than angles. That purpose seems to be missing among those who say the earth is only 6000 years old.

Further, 2 Peter says that the earth was destroyed by water. That Greek word for destroyed means "utterly destroyed". A fact that a simple little dove proved wasn't true for Noah's flood. And obviously refers to the time of tohu and deluge (of Genesis 1:9 and that Isaiah says that the earth wasn't created in).

I think this is enough for now, but there is much more to say.

Thanks,

TSS

 

[divine137]

Divine137,



Dude, you completely missed my point here. And your arguments are faulty. I used angels as an indication that God did create beings prior to humans (see Job for proof of this if you need it) and, therefore by extension, that God could easily create another creation other than Adam prior to Adam.
The fault in your logic is when, later you say that Satan didn't rule over angles (I quote: "No where in Scripture show that Lucifer ruled any angels prior to rebelion.") Clearly, as a covering angel, Lucifer ruled over something, and by your reasoning, there are only angels and humans, so then, if not angels then humans (by your reasoning). Further, you say that Lucifer was not a fallen being at the time of the creation of Adam (I quote: "The rebellion took place POSTadam, not PRE."), so this means that a holy and righteous angel with perfect wisdom tempted Adam and Eve to sin? Further, Job demonstrates that Lucifer is acting as an Accuser (i.e. the Accuser of the Brethren) accusing both Job AND God; but you say that because of his (Satan's) appearance in heaven it demonstrates the he is righteous and holy? This is clearly an impossibility. Simply because he appeared before God doesn't mean he is guiltless and sinless, there is another option here of which the book of Job is attempting to demonstrate. This reason will clearly answer why Lucifer, as a sinful being, was allowed into heaven. Therefore, since Lucifer was indeed a fallen being (fallen from Grace, not from heaven - the two are not the same) prior to the creation of Adam and Eve, by your logic and my proof, Satan ruled over non-angelic beings on earth before Adam and Eve.

Even further, your statement that there was only one flood (I quote: "It happened prior to the FIRST AND ONLY world wide flood...in the days of Noah.") is obviously erroneous, unless of course, you call the fact that Genesis 1:9 clearly describes that waters covered the entire earth, something other than a flood.

And more, given the fact that Lucifer sinned prior to Adam, this (I quote) "His sin of tricking the world through trades and trickery took all these years and is still in affect" clearly demonstrates that not only his trades took more than "a few days" prior to the creation of Adam it proves that there was a creation on earth prior to Adam. The fact that you have to twist Satan into a righteous being that can tempt Adam and Eve AND Accuse both Job and God of sin and NOT be a sinful fallen angel clearly demonstrates that you have misunderstood these verses.

Furthermore, there is a definite reason why the period of man is only 6000 years with clear divisions every two thousand years (or two days). And that fact, a fact that Peter describes when he says that with God 1 day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day, clearly delineates God's purpose for man, a purpose the book of Job talks about and why David said that man was created a little lower than angles. That purpose seems to be missing among those who say the earth is only 6000 years old.

Further, 2 Peter says that the earth was destroyed by water. That Greek word for destroyed means "utterly destroyed". A fact that a simple little dove proved wasn't true for Noah's flood. And obviously refers to the time of tohu and deluge (of Genesis 1:9 and that Isaiah says that the earth wasn't created in).

I think this is enough for now, but there is much more to say.

Thanks,

TSS

You see, you are blinded by your own preconceived misconceptions. Very clear that the 2 Peter 'old world' is the world prior to the 'present world'. THe 'old world' was the world that had the water canopy and the continents were one and the people lived almost 1,000 years...etc.

That is the only world that was destroyed by water. See Genesis 6.

Then, absolutely his tricks and trades took more than a few days...it has taken 6,000 years! Hello?

Again, if u knew anything about a little bit of science...you'd know that plants would not survive 2,000 years with no sun...which the sun was created 'after' plants..see Genesis chapter one.

On top of the fact that the commandment says "...for the Lord created the heavens and the earth in SIX days..."

The Bible says man was created a little lower than God, not angels...learn some Hebrew...

FInally, sin was 'found' in Satan...you can't be 'found' with sin...until you actually commit it.

So how are you irrationally contesting that Satan had been found with sin 'before' he committed it?

Satan's sins have been ongoing through his deceptions and trickeries and trades throughout earth history....he didn't lead a rebellion of angels 'before' Adam, but AFTER. See Genesis 6, 2 Peter 2, Jude, ENoch, Revelation 12...etc...

Hell wasn't created prior to Adam, but "after" Noah....

Job was 'after' Adam...Satan was still in Heaven...

Revelation 12 tells us Satan gets tossed "after" having sinned, tricked the world through trades and deceptions...and "after" having accused the BRETHREN...no brethren before adam...the brethren he accused day and night...are the Church...see WHOLE BIBLE...

Revelation 12 doesn't say "once the dragon saw he was thrown to earth and no more place in heaven was found....he looked for Adam and Eve..."

No, it says "Once the dragon saw that he was thrown to earth and no more place in heaven was found....he pursued the WOMAN WHO HAD GIVEN BIRTH TO CHRIST!!!!" That's not just POST ADAM....shoot that's post JOHN THE BAPTIST for crying out loud...

C'mon bro...connect the dots and read the WHOLE BIBLE, not just a one verse CHarlie taking one verse out of context and making up a whole false mythical non scientific myth...

 

[TheSacredSecrets]

You see, you are blinded by your own preconceived misconceptions. Very clear that the 2 Peter 'old world' is the world prior to the 'present world'. THe 'old world' was the world that had the water canopy and the continents were one and the people lived almost 1,000 years...etc.

And what scriptural proof do you use to support this? At least I presented that the Greek word for destroy actually means utterly destroyed, and then subsequently proved that Noah's flood did NOT utterly destroy the earth. You offer nothing but sarcasm.

That is the only world that was destroyed by water. See Genesis 6.

Yes Gen 6 describes what happened with Noah's flood, but please explain what happened to cause God to flood the Earth in Gen 1 and then raise the land above the waters. Have you even addressed that? Nope, only sarcasm.

Then, absolutely his tricks and trades took more than a few days...it has taken 6,000 years! Hello?

So it took God 6000 years to determine that Satan had sinned? Is this the same God who can determine the thoughts and intents of a person's heart? The same God who can tell what a man will be before he is born? You must learn to distinguish between sin and punishment for sin.

Again, if u knew anything about a little bit of science...you'd know that plants would not survive 2,000 years with no sun...which the sun was created 'after' plants..see Genesis chapter one.

I know plenty about science, but I also know the God who created science and the Bible He authored. And perhaps if you had read the bible, you'd notice that plants did not arise on the day they were created...as Gen 2:5 so explains if you had taken the time to read it. So your argument is specious and moot. Furthermore, who said anything about no plants existing for 2000 years? Are you attributing something to me I did not say? Is it you who are judging by preconceived misconceptions? Clearly it is so. Another flaw in your presentation.

On top of the fact that the commandment says "...for the Lord created the heavens and the earth in SIX days..."

Perhaps it is you who needs the Hebrew lesson. For the word "created" you use here is the word for made NOT created. Made from something, not created from nothing.

The Bible says man was created a little lower than God, not angels...learn some Hebrew...

Again, you must dig a little deeper into your understanding of Hebrew. The Hebrew word is Elohim (plural) and it in general refers to divine ones. So everything from God, gods, to (human) judges. But is your understanding that we are superior to angels? Please. So your understanding of that word must increase.

FInally, sin was 'found' in Satan...you can't be 'found' with sin...until you actually commit it.

Huh? You mean the God who can determine the thoughts and intents of your heart and Satan's and cannot declare there is sin in your heart until you commit an act of sin? And are you further saying that Satan did NOT sin by tempting Adam and Eve? And that Satan did NOT sin by proclaiming Job and God in a plan to unrighteously condemn Satan? And Satan did not therefore lie? Really???? Perhaps this is why you seem to be defending Satan, your understanding of when sin is committed is incorrect.

So how are you irrationally contesting that Satan had been found with sin 'before' he committed it?

This is incomprehensible to me. Your stance on when Satan sinned is unreasonable. Tell all the world plainly that Satan did not sin by tempting Adam and Eve in the Garden. Explain how a righteous and holy being, either man, angel or God can tempt anyone into sin and still be righteous and holy? This is a completely erroneous stance on your part!

Satan's sins have been ongoing through his deceptions and trickeries and trades throughout earth history....he didn't lead a rebellion of angels 'before' Adam, but AFTER. See Genesis 6, 2 Peter 2, Jude, ENoch, Revelation 12...etc...

See even here you half prove yourself wrong. Is not what Satan did in the garden also a trickery? A lie? A deception? A holy and righteous being cannot and will not tempt anyone into sin. Entertaining even the thought of it in your heart is a sin!

Hell wasn't created prior to Adam, but "after" Noah....

So is it your contention that these fallen angels rebelled separately from Lucifer, the anointed cherub? That is a stretch. So there are two rebellions? One for Satan and one for the fallen angels? Can you document this in scripture?

Job was 'after' Adam...Satan was still in Heaven...

Your understanding of this is in error. Please re-read Job and determine where did Satan come from when he entered heaven? Roaming around where? On earth, where he is the prince of the power of the air. Your understanding that Satan was in heaven proves that he was not sinful is erroneous also. As Job clearly calls him Satan, Adversary, and the accuser of the brethren (as he clearly is and does to God and Job AND to God in the Garden of Eden - if you remember correctly Satan call God a liar in the Garden too). Clearly a title NOT of righteousness.

Revelation 12 tells us Satan gets tossed "after" having sinned, tricked the world through trades and deceptions...and "after" having accused the BRETHREN...no brethren before adam...the brethren he accused day and night...are the Church...see WHOLE BIBLE...

Revelation 12 doesn't say "once the dragon saw he was thrown to earth and no more place in heaven was found....he looked for Adam and Eve..."

No, it says "Once the dragon saw that he was thrown to earth and no more place in heaven was found....he pursued the WOMAN WHO HAD GIVEN BIRTH TO CHRIST!!!!" That's not just POST ADAM....shoot that's post JOHN THE BAPTIST for crying out loud...

C'mon bro...connect the dots and read the WHOLE BIBLE, not just a one verse CHarlie taking one verse out of context and making up a whole false mythical non scientific myth...

The premise of your argument is false. Satan got tossed after having been judged! Not after having sinned. Learn the distinction. When a man sins he is not immediately judged either. For the punishment of sin is death, both spiritual and natural. And both man and angels, indeed all free moral beings, sin, but are not judged until the end. That is the reason for the 6000 years which the book of Job and other books points to. And the reason why Satan sins before Adam and Eve and is not judged until the end. The is the crux of your error. Satan was a liar from the beginning and lied in the garden. This is why Jesus said that the God of this world is judged (Jn 16:8-11).

Perhaps if you give up searching for cleaver sarcasm - which are Homerish (Simpson not the philosopher) - and instead study a bit more you will see that all of creation is subject to the need to have heavenly judgment. That judgment requires that there be two or more witnesses. Satan sinned before the Garden and wasn't judged until later because of the heavenly judgment system. God, being a loving God, will not condemn anyone, man or angel or other, without due process which according to scripture, requires that before anyone is condemned witnesses be found against him. You clearly do not understand this principle at all and therefore the hypothesis that you have developed is flawed and in error.

This is the last time I will discuss this with you unless you address these scriptural points and refrain from immature sarcasm.

God bless,

TSS

 

[divine137]

And what scriptural proof do you use to support this? At least I presented that the Greek word for destroy actually means utterly destroyed, and then subsequently proved that Noah's flood did NOT utterly destroy the earth. You offer nothing but sarcasm.



Yes Gen 6 describes what happened with Noah's flood, but please explain what happened to cause God to flood the Earth in Gen 1 and then raise the land above the waters. Have you even addressed that? Nope, only sarcasm.



So it took God 6000 years to determine that Satan had sinned? Is this the same God who can determine the thoughts and intents of a person's heart? The same God who can tell what a man will be before he is born? You must learn to distinguish between sin and punishment for sin.



I know plenty about science, but I also know the God who created science and the Bible He authored. And perhaps if you had read the bible, you'd notice that plants did not arise on the day they were created...as Gen 2:5 so explains if you had taken the time to read it. So your argument is specious and moot. Furthermore, who said anything about no plants existing for 2000 years? Are you attributing something to me I did not say? Is it you who are judging by preconceived misconceptions? Clearly it is so. Another flaw in your presentation.



Perhaps it is you who needs the Hebrew lesson. For the word "created" you use here is the word for made NOT created. Made from something, not created from nothing.



Again, you must dig a little deeper into your understanding of Hebrew. The Hebrew word is Elohim (plural) and it in general refers to divine ones. So everything from God, gods, to (human) judges. But is your understanding that we are superior to angels? Please. So your understanding of that word must increase.



Huh? You mean the God who can determine the thoughts and intents of your heart and Satan's and cannot declare there is sin in your heart until you commit an act of sin? And are you further saying that Satan did NOT sin by tempting Adam and Eve? And that Satan did NOT sin by proclaiming Job and God in a plan to unrighteously condemn Satan? And Satan did not therefore lie? Really???? Perhaps this is why you seem to be defending Satan, your understanding of when sin is committed is incorrect.



This is incomprehensible to me. Your stance on when Satan sinned is unreasonable. Tell all the world plainly that Satan did not sin by tempting Adam and Eve in the Garden. Explain how a righteous and holy being, either man, angel or God can tempt anyone into sin and still be righteous and holy? This is a completely erroneous stance on your part!



See even here you half prove yourself wrong. Is not what Satan did in the garden also a trickery? A lie? A deception? A holy and righteous being cannot and will not tempt anyone into sin. Entertaining even the thought of it in your heart is a sin!



So is it your contention that these fallen angels rebelled separately from Lucifer, the anointed cherub? That is a stretch. So there are two rebellions? One for Satan and one for the fallen angels? Can you document this in scripture?



Your understanding of this is in error. Please re-read Job and determine where did Satan come from when he entered heaven? Roaming around where? On earth, where he is the prince of the power of the air. Your understanding that Satan was in heaven proves that he was not sinful is erroneous also. As Job clearly calls him Satan, Adversary, and the accuser of the brethren (as he clearly is and does to God and Job AND to God in the Garden of Eden - if you remember correctly Satan call God a liar in the Garden too). Clearly a title NOT of righteousness.



The premise of your argument is false. Satan got tossed after having been judged! Not after having sinned. Learn the distinction. When a man sins he is not immediately judged either. For the punishment of sin is death, both spiritual and natural. And both man and angels, indeed all free moral beings, sin, but are not judged until the end. That is the reason for the 6000 years which the book of Job and other books points to. And the reason why Satan sins before Adam and Eve and is not judged until the end. The is the crux of your error. Satan was a liar from the beginning and lied in the garden. This is why Jesus said that the God of this world is judged (Jn 16:8-11).

Perhaps if you give up searching for cleaver sarcasm - which are Homerish (Simpson not the philosopher) - and instead study a bit more you will see that all of creation is subject to the need to have heavenly judgment. That judgment requires that there be two or more witnesses. Satan sinned before the Garden and wasn't judged until later because of the heavenly judgment system. God, being a loving God, will not condemn anyone, man or angel or other, without due process which according to scripture, requires that before anyone is condemned witnesses be found against him. You clearly do not understand this principle at all and therefore the hypothesis that you have developed is flawed and in error.

This is the last time I will discuss this with you unless you address these scriptural points and refrain from immature sarcasm.

God bless,

TSS

First, nowhere does it say that God flooded the earth in Genesis 1. It says he created it FORMLESS and VOID...and in other scriptures that He created the earth BY WATER...

And yes, it took God at least 4,000 years...similiar to how God tells Joshua about the Amorites/Amalekites...."....wait...for their sin is not FULFILLED YET..." :o Similiar language when used with "trampled underfoot until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled..."

...then, yes...the heavens and the earth were CREATED/MADE...

Made from something? Yes, BY His Word...and as other scriptures state that the earth was made...BY WATER...

...then, YES! Satan according to Revelation 12 was the one who "led a third of the angels astray..."

Finally, never NEVER did I say Satan didn't sin when he lied..r u hearing voices???

No...I said, AS IT IS WRITTEN...that Satan has decieved the world through lies, tricks, and trades throughout earth history...Isaiah and Ezekiel reveals this CLEARLY and that once sin was FOUND (that was the sin that was found in him) then Michael and his angels began a war against Satan in the heavenlies....that the end result was or likely is still ongoing...is Satan being tossed to earth.

The losing of the battle and being tossed may or may not have happened yet...the battle has been ongoing since most likely once Christ rose from the grave...thus Paul says our battle is not against flesh and blood...but against wickedness in HEAVENLY PLACES....where Michael is battling Satan as Paul spoke.

John in Revelation saw the vision of the accuser of the brethren being losing that battle and "again" mentions that the ONE WHO ACCUSED THE BRETHREN DAY AND NIGHT WILL BE TOSSED...

Satan had no brethren to accuse day and night PREadam....

Plus, John tells us what Satan does EXACTLY ONCE HE REALIZES HE WAS TOSSED TO EARTH......it says "The dragon once he saw he had lost his place in heaven...pursued the WOMAN WHO GAVE BIRTH TO CHRIST..." POST, POST, POST ADAM....because the woman gave birth ALREADY to CHRIST....

So SAtans tossing to earth is POST "CHRIST"...since the woman who GAVE BIRTH (past tense) to Christ hadn't even existed yet in the garden of Eden...

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Can anyone explain this theory to me in simple terms? A pastor told me today that Adam and Eve were not the first created humans....I had read something about a time frame between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.....and of course how Satan fell from earth before Adam and Eve were created, taking the other fallen angels with him.....but none of those fallen angels were human, right?

So who are these "PreAdamites" and what happened to them?

And Cain....why was he worried about being killed, before God put the mark on him, if there were no other people on the earth besides Adam and Eve?

Is there a time frame in between those two verses I mentioned in Genesis?

No.
God did not set a mark on Cain, he gave him a token, a pledge, that he would not be killed by the avenger of blood.
Abel had prophesied of the avenging of his blood, by YHWH, if Cain killed him, when Cain threatened to kill him [in the true history record, the Book of Jasher, this prophecy of Abel, the first prophet whose blood was spilled by a member of "the wicked generation", is given -http://www.speakingbible.com/jasher/index.htm]. Cain was remorseful, and did get a pledge, not a mark. the same word is used for the token of the rainbow, which is the sign God gave to be His own token, pledge, sign, in the clouds, that He would never do that again.

There is no possible way that there was any creation before the six literal days of Genesis 1. I give the biblical reasons in the thread here-
http://www.christianforums.com/t7493818/

 

[SkyWriting]

In considering this question, we must first establish a basis for our consideration. I begin with the fact that the Bible is the word of God. We read 2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

If the Bible is indeed inspired by God, then it must of necessity be completely true and accurate in all its details. And if it indeed makes the man of God “perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works,” then it must contain all the information we need for Godly living.
<snip>

Here is where scripture trumps human reasoning:

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-
-his eternal power and divine nature-
have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,
so that men are without excuse.

 

[divine137]

I don't know what you are driving at here but Satan has been thrown down more then once, in fact, in the Revelation when he is thrown down for the last time it says that "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down." (Rev. 12:10)
​

He's been cast out before and he will be cast out again, just one of these times, it will be permanent.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[TheSacredSecrets]

No.
God did not set a mark on Cain, he gave him a token, a pledge, that he would not be killed by the avenger of blood.
Abel had prophesied of the avenging of his blood, by YHWH, if Cain killed him, when Cain threatened to kill him [in the true history record, the Book of Jasher, this prophecy of Abel, the first prophet whose blood was spilled by a member of "the wicked generation", is given -[link removed so I could post]. Cain was remorseful, and did get a pledge, not a mark. the same word is used for the token of the rainbow, which is the sign God gave to be His own token, pledge, sign, in the clouds, that He would never do that again.

There is no possible way that there was any creation before the six literal days of Genesis 1. I give the biblical reasons in the thread here-
[I had to remove the link because it wouldn't let me post with it included]

YeshuaSavedMe and others,

I am an unusual person and I look at the scripture apparently in an unusual way. This leads me to see many problems with the Young Earth Creation Theory. YeshuaSavedMe, I have much respect for you as you do well in your attempts to back up your position with scripture and because of that I am glad to call you brother.

However, I have many questions about the commonly held interpretation of the creation story. But I have one proof (in a long line of reasoning) that you have never heard (or at least I have never heard anyone else use it) used as a defense of the Old Earth/Gap Theory. I am NOT going to spoon feed the answer to anyone on this forum or anywhere else for that matter. You'll one day have to come hear me preach it !

Let me start with the questions - to those of you who adhere to the YEC theory (this is not an exhaustive list - I have near one hundred questions that I have never seen asked nor answered):

1) Where does it say that God created water? The creation account does not include the creation of water. Earth (eretz=land, earth - meaning dirt, ground - it is eretz yisrael = the land of Israel not the globe of Israel), heaven (Shammayim), Sun, Moon, light, etc. Why no mention of water being created in the 6 days of creation?

2) Why would God create the planet in water only then to undo His first idea (i.e. a planet covered in water) and then redo it in order to separate some of the water into the atmosphere? And then, what is more, to undo it even more by raising the ground above the water? Why not create it this way to begin with? (To me this is a big problem.)

3) If God made the earth a void and a waste on the first go, why didn't he make Adam, Eve, the Garden, Angels, sun, moon, stars, EVERYTHING ELSE, waste and void first also, then then re-make them into what they should have been in the first place?

4) Why does it say that God created the plants and the herbs of the field and SAW that it was good, when He really didn't see it? Gen 2 clearly says no plants had yet sprung up!?

5) Why did God have to create the Garden of Eden in order to place man there?

6) Why did God take 6 days to "create" (really [re-]make) the earth when He could have done it in the blink of an eye?

7) Why did God rest on the 7th day?

(Seven is a good number to stop at don't you think? BTW there are definite, scripturally supported answers to everyone of those questions.)

And finally the proof. I am going to give you the proof that the earth is much older than the Young Earth Creation theory maintains. I am NOT going to give any supporting scripture (there is a lot of it and I am really tired). However, if you think about it and pull in several main principles clearly found in scripture (but rarely talked about) this proof is the crux of the argument. If you reverse the reasoning you will come to the conclusion that the earth must be far far more than 6,000 years old:

Why will Jesus rule on the earth for 1 thousand years with Satan bound in chains and then let him free at the end of the 1 thousand years?

In Jesus' mighty name,

TSS

 

[divine137]

YeshuaSavedMe and others,

I am an unusual person and I look at the scripture apparently in an unusual way. This leads me to see many problems with the Young Earth Creation Theory. YeshuaSavedMe, I have much respect for you as you do well in your attempts to back up your position with scripture and because of that I am glad to call you brother.

However, I have many questions about the commonly held interpretation of the creation story. But I have one proof (in a long line of reasoning) that you have never heard (or at least I have never heard anyone else use it) used as a defense of the Old Earth/Gap Theory. I am NOT going to spoon feed the answer to anyone on this forum or anywhere else for that matter. You'll one day have to come hear me preach it !

Let me start with the questions - to those of you who adhere to the YEC theory (this is not an exhaustive list - I have near one hundred questions that I have never seen asked nor answered):

1) Where does it say that God created water? The creation account does not include the creation of water. Earth (eretz=land, earth - meaning dirt, ground - it is eretz yisrael = the land of Israel not the globe of Israel), heaven (Shammayim), Sun, Moon, light, etc. Why no mention of water being created in the 6 days of creation?

2) Why would God create the planet in water only then to undo His first idea (i.e. a planet covered in water) and then redo it in order to separate some of the water into the atmosphere? And then, what is more, to undo it even more by raising the ground above the water? Why not create it this way to begin with? (To me this is a big problem.)

3) If God made the earth a void and a waste on the first go, why didn't he make Adam, Eve, the Garden, Angels, sun, moon, stars, EVERYTHING ELSE, waste and void first also, then then re-make them into what they should have been in the first place?

4) Why does it say that God created the plants and the herbs of the field and SAW that it was good, when He really didn't see it? Gen 2 clearly says no plants had yet sprung up!?

5) Why did God have to create the Garden of Eden in order to place man there?

6) Why did God take 6 days to "create" (really [re-]make) the earth when He could have done it in the blink of an eye?

7) Why did God rest on the 7th day?

(Seven is a good number to stop at don't you think? BTW there are definite, scripturally supported answers to everyone of those questions.)

And finally the proof. I am going to give you the proof that the earth is much older than the Young Earth Creation theory maintains. I am NOT going to give any supporting scripture (there is a lot of it and I am really tired). However, if you think about it and pull in several main principles clearly found in scripture (but rarely talked about) this proof is the crux of the argument. If you reverse the reasoning you will come to the conclusion that the earth must be far far more than 6,000 years old:

Why will Jesus rule on the earth for 1 thousand years with Satan bound in chains and then let him free at the end of the 1 thousand years?

In Jesus' mighty name,

TSS

Young Earth is not a theory its a fact...get your head out of the sand....

then, water is H20...he created the heavens and the earth formless and void...must i go further than that? or is it self-explanatory? then, what does that have to do with the age of the universe?

You also ask why didn't God make...it was His decision...again, has nothing to do with the age of universe...

...then, you contradict yourself...you say why did God make the universe in 6 days when He could had done it in a blink of an eye....then you turn and say he took millions of years

 

[yeshuasavedme]

... If the Bible is true, mankind has been on this earth for only about six thousand years, but the earth itself is older than that. How much older is not revealed. Why? Because that has nothing to do with God’s relationship with us.

If the Bible is true, then there was no heavens before day 2 of creation week.

Gen 1:6
And God said, Let there be an expanse/ firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. Gen 1:7 And God made the expanse/firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heavens [plural]. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

If the Bible is true, then there was no sun, no moon, and no stars in the stretched out expanse called heavens, beneath the half of the waters divided from earth, until day 4 of creation week.

Gen 1:14
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also. Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good. Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

If the Bible is true, there is no gap, for there was no heaven, no sun, moon, no stars, and of course, no light, at all, before they were created, on day 1 -light
day 2 -stretched out heavens
day 4 -sun, moon, and stars.

Is the Bible true? Is it factually true that the heavens were stretched out between the divided waters of earth, on day 2 of creation week?
-Yes, the Bible is true, and there was no heavens, plural, until day 2 of creation week, when they were stretched out -expanded vastly- between the divided waters of earth's creation.
There was no sun, no moon, no stars until day 4 of creation week, when they were made, and set in the heavens, beneath the hald of the divided waters of earth's creation.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

YeshuaSavedMe and others,

I am an unusual person and I look at the scripture apparently in an unusual way. This leads me to see many problems with the Young Earth Creation Theory. YeshuaSavedMe, I have much respect for you as you do well in your attempts to back up your position with scripture and because of that I am glad to call you brother.

However, I have many questions about the commonly held interpretation of the creation story. But I have one proof (in a long line of reasoning) that you have never heard (or at least I have never heard anyone else use it) used as a defense of the Old Earth/Gap Theory. I am NOT going to spoon feed the answer to anyone on this forum or anywhere else for that matter. You'll one day have to come hear me preach it !

Let me start with the questions - to those of you who adhere to the YEC theory (this is not an exhaustive list - I have near one hundred questions that I have never seen asked nor answered):

1) Where does it say that God created water? The creation account does not include the creation of water. Earth (eretz=land, earth - meaning dirt, ground - it is eretz yisrael = the land of Israel not the globe of Israel), heaven (Shammayim), Sun, Moon, light, etc. Why no mention of water being created in the 6 days of creation?

Earth was created as a globe/tebel of water/mayim -no land mass at all, and then light was brought into being, on day 1.
The heavens were stretched out between the divided waters on day 2.
There were no heavens until they were stretched out, between the divided waters of earth, on day 2.

There was no land mass until the waters were commanded to gather together in one place, and "dry/yabbashah " to appear, on day 3.
The waters/mayim were called seas/yim and the dry/yabbashah was called earth/eretz. So the naming of the earth/eretz did not happen before verse 3, and comes from the name given the "dry/yabbashah ".

Why will Jesus rule on the earth for 1 thousand years with Satan bound in chains and then let him free at the end of the 1 thousand years?

In Jesus' mighty name,

TSS

Because the seed ordained to be born of Adam who are written in the Book of Life to come forth as sons of God and who are ransomed by the blood of the Kinsman/Redeemer must all come into their being, and they who come into their being during the Sabbath Millennium complete the seed of Adam which were written in the Book of Life to come into their being, from whom the living stones will be gathered for the completion of the City of God, made for the Glory to indwell.
Because none of the seed of the "blessed of the LORD who are born in the thousand years, when no one dies but sinners at age 100, are tested, when the satans are bound, and they must be tested before given the changed bodies made for the glory, as every seed of Adam must be.

 

[TheSacredSecrets]

Earth was created as a globe/tebel of water/mayim -no land mass at all, and then light was brought into being, on day 1.

You have a habit of usually interpreting scripture straightforwardly. However, you do not in this case. The very first verse indicates that land, dirt, ground was created in the beginning "eretz". Bereshiyt elohim bara shamayim veretz (not exact as I don't have my Hebrew bible at hand). Eretz! Not mayim, not tebel, ERETZ. It was put there for a reason! Are you now rephrasing the word of G-d?!

The heavens were stretched out between the divided waters on day 2. There were no heavens until they were stretched out, between the divided waters of earth, on day 2.

There was no land mass until the waters were commanded to gather together in one place, and "dry/yabbashah " to appear, on day 3.
The waters/mayim were called seas/yim and the dry/yabbashah was called earth/eretz. So the naming of the earth/eretz did not happen before verse 3, and comes from the name given the "dry/yabbashah ".



Because the seed ordained to be born of Adam who are written in the Book of Life to come forth as sons of God and who are ransomed by the blood of the Kinsman/Redeemer must all come into their being, and they who come into their being during the Sabbath Millennium complete the seed of Adam which were written in the Book of Life to come into their being, from whom the living stones will be gathered for the completion of the City of God, made for the Glory to indwell.
Because none of the seed of the "blessed of the LORD who are born in the thousand years, when no one dies but sinners at age 100, are tested, when the satans are bound, and they must be tested before given the changed bodies made for the glory, as every seed of Adam must be.

Let me rephrase the question, as I believe you missed the point or I'm not getting your response (haven't a clue what you mean by "come into their being"). Why has God designed it that the first six thousand years Satan is not bound but in the millennial rest he is? And then why would God release him for a brief time? To elucidate further why is it that creation is 6 days plus a day of rest and the period of man is 6000 years and a millennium of rest?

TSS

 

[yeshuasavedme]

You have a habit of usually interpreting scripture straightforwardly. However, you do not in this case. The very first verse indicates that land, dirt, ground was created in the beginning "eretz". Bereshiyt elohim bara shamayim veretz (not exact as I don't have my Hebrew bible at hand). Eretz! Not mayim, not tebel, ERETZ. It was put there for a reason! Are you now rephrasing the word of G-d?!

No, the first verse does not by any means claim that there was "dry" -Hebrew &#1497;&#1489;&#1513;&#1492; yabbashah on the created earth. In fact, the name of earth is not called by the Creator until day 3, when the waters/mayim under the heavens [specifying not the waters above the heavens] were commanded to be gathered together in one place, called seas/yim, and the "dry/&#1497;&#1489;&#1513;&#1492; yabbashah to be visible. There was no dry/&#1497;&#1489;&#1513;&#1492; yabbashah until day 3. So the dry, which was named Eretz/earth, is called to appear when the mayim/waters, are commanded to be gathered together in one place, named Yim/seas, on day 3.

The chronological order of creation is given in the synopsis after the opening statement: &#1512;&#1488;&#1513;&#1497;&#1514; re'shiyth &#1488;&#1500;&#1492;&#1497;&#1501; 'elohiym &#1489;&#1512;&#1488; bara' &#1488;&#1514; 'eth &#1513;&#1502;&#1497;&#1501; shamayim &#1488;&#1514; 'eth &#1488;&#1512;&#1509; 'erets ..
The shamayim -elevated [ascended/expanded] mayim /heavens were not created or named until day 2.
The dry/&#1497;&#1489;&#1513;&#1492; yabbashah was not brought into "seeing" or named "eretz/earth, until day 3.

And the word translated earth at times, but world, at others, is the word tebel/globe, which YHWH created in the beginning, but that Hebrew word is not used until later, in the OT; nevertheless, it means globe, and the world was created a globe of water, and the heavens were stretched out between the divided waters/mayim, and named sha -from "stretching out" -mayim/waters, on day 2.


YHWH ordained one week of thousands from the beginning, for this earth, to the regeneration of it and the completion of His "House not made with hands, which is a human being house, made of living stones, called sons of God, and ordained to be the City for His habitation and Glory, which was Adam's purpose, and which is why He made Adam male and female, to multiply the seed created in the loins of Adam, as sons of God to build that "House" with.

Each seed in Adam which was to come into the Adam being by the multiplication of the Adam was written in the Book of Life to come forth in the pre-appointed season, boundaried by their pre-appointed days, and lit by the Light that lights every man that comes into the world [Christ is that Light and He is come in flesh], in the hopes that they may seek God, and seeking, "haply find", and fulfill their destiny in the reason Adam was created, to be a house for the Glory to indwell.

The fall was known of, before the creation, and the Seed/Christ, of the Woman/Zion of the heavenlies [personified] was planned before our creation to come as our Kinsman and redeem us and the kingdom given to us in Adam, back, for its purpose of building a "House for the Father's Glory to indwell".

We who are the seed of the Adam, all must come into our being [Adam is our being], for we were ordained to do so, before the beginning, and before the beginning our redemption was ordained, in the New Man name, and the kingdom prepared for us [the Adam being] is now ransomed and that kingdom will be restored in the millennium and those born to the "Blessed of YHWH" who enter into that millennial reign will be born in the regenerated kingdom Adam sold, and the New Man ransomed and restored. From those seed born in that last Sabbath millennium, the "House for the Glory" will be completed.

There's lots in the Living Oracles that teach us these things, and they take time to unfold doctrinally from the Word, but that is a brief synopsis.

Genesis 5:2
Malachi 2:15
Haggai 2 all speak of the reason YHWH made human beings and the earth for them, and why He planned the ransom of them, in the name of the New Man [Himself in the Person of the Word, come in flesh of a second creation], by His own Atonement and adoption of them, back, for the Glory.

BTW: -I'm a female Adam person [Genesis 5:2], married to a male Adam person 46 years [this year], and mom and grandmom and great grandmom, born into [adopted into] Christ 41 years ago, and waiting for the change -to wit: the adoption of my body.

 

[TheSacredSecrets]

.....nevertheless, it means globe, and the world was created a globe of water, and the heavens were stretched out between the divided waters/mayim, and named sha -from "stretching out" -mayim/waters, on day 2.

Before I present my argument I need to confirm what you have said here. Did you really mean to say that our planet was created a globe of water? As in a globe of all water? As in water and no land (eretz)?


Further, I cannot believe my luck in your statement that Shamayim means stretching out waters. My Hebrew teacher said something very similar but I discounted it figuring that it was way too obvious. I mean surely a word that had mayim in it could also have a definition that included water. And by obvious I mean it seems to my lowly logic that it is a clear proof of the Gap theory. In my Hebrew class I actually brought up the topic of shamayim meaning something with water. And he confirmed that it did. So I asked him that a more accurate translation of Gen 1:1 would be that God created the stretched out/lifted up water (I'm using your definition to avoid confusion as it is close enough to what he said) and the land.

I remember exactly why I asked him about this word. If Gen 1:1 means that there is a stretching out of water. And God created the stretching out of water and the land, but then had to re-stretch out this water then that is proof that God created the heavens and earth pristine (something supported by the word bereshiyth) and it was destroyed by a catastrophe (supported by the word hayah) and then was re-stretched out in order to make it re-habitable. But as I said, I discounted it as this would be way to easy. And you young earth creationists wouldn't believe that anyway.

And to further emphasize this point, it seems you actually believe that the heavens are what is in-between the waters that eventually became seas and the waters that are stretched out above the expanse: (I quote you) "specifying not the waters above the heavens". It appears that you have developed this idea in order to accommodate your theory that the heavens (not singular by the way) were not created until the expanse was created. And that there are somehow at least two of a singular heaven below this sphere (? I don't know what else to call it) of water and above the globe of water.

If you truly believe this and also believe that our planet was created a globe of pure water it is useless for me to continue with my argument. If however, I'm misunderstanding you, then I am more than willing to hear your clarification.

In Him

TSS

 

[SkyWriting]

... If Gen 1:1 means that there is a stretching out of water. And God created the stretching out of water and the land, but then had to re-stretch out this water then that is proof that God created the heavens and earth pristine (something supported by the word bereshiyth) and it was destroyed by a catastrophe (supported by the word hayah) and then was re-stretched out in order to make it re-habitable. But as I said, I discounted it as this would be way to easy. And you young earth creationists wouldn't believe that anyway....

All of this scenario could be covered by Sin entering the world through Adam (a catastrophe) and God setting up natural selection to carry on the support for life in this fallen state. So the world was pristine, and remade so as not to fall apart too quickly.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Before I present my argument I need to confirm what you have said here. Did you really mean to say that our planet was created a globe of water? As in a globe of all water? As in water and no land (eretz)?


Further, I cannot believe my luck in your statement that Shamayim means stretching out waters. My Hebrew teacher said something very similar but I discounted it figuring that it was way too obvious. I mean surely a word that had mayim in it could also have a definition that included water. And by obvious I mean it seems to my lowly logic that it is a clear proof of the Gap theory. In my Hebrew class I actually brought up the topic of shamayim meaning something with water. And he confirmed that it did. So I asked him that a more accurate translation of Gen 1:1 would be that God created the stretched out/lifted up water (I'm using your definition to avoid confusion as it is close enough to what he said) and the land.

I remember exactly why I asked him about this word. If Gen 1:1 means that there is a stretching out of water. And God created the stretching out of water and the land, but then had to re-stretch out this water then that is proof that God created the heavens and earth pristine (something supported by the word bereshiyth) and it was destroyed by a catastrophe (supported by the word hayah) and then was re-stretched out in order to make it re-habitable. But as I said, I discounted it as this would be way to easy. And you young earth creationists wouldn't believe that anyway.

And to further emphasize this point, it seems you actually believe that the heavens are what is in-between the waters that eventually became seas and the waters that are stretched out above the expanse: (I quote you) "specifying not the waters above the heavens". It appears that you have developed this idea in order to accommodate your theory that the heavens (not singular by the way) were not created until the expanse was created. And that there are somehow at least two of a singular heaven below this sphere (? I don't know what else to call it) of water and above the globe of water.

If you truly believe this and also believe that our planet was created a globe of pure water it is useless for me to continue with my argument. If however, I'm misunderstanding you, then I am more than willing to hear your clarification.

In Him

TSS

I had a hard time following, but I think that you want to know if I believe that the earth was first, water, no land. -That is what the Word states. The earth was one face of "deep" -the abyss of the waters. The dry/ &#1497;&#1489;&#1513;&#1492; yabbashah did not "appear" until the waters/mayim below the heavens were commanded to be gathered together in one place, called seas [Yim]. At that time, the Creator called/named the &#1497;&#1489;&#1513;&#1492;dry/ yabbashah "Eretz/earth". Before the dry appeared, the earth was already a globe/tebel of water.

That primal earth was created first, in darkness, and as a globe and as water.
Half of that water was raised up above the stretched out firmament called heavens.
That's a lot of water.
Out of the half left, the waters were commanded to be gathered together in one place, and the "dry appeared.

Now, since that is all that we have to work with at this time, then I am at a loss to fill in the blanks of how the dry came out of the water, and since there is much water even beneath the "dry" -however many different layers of dry appeared, going down, I am at a loss to explain as the Word we have available does not state. But the earth was stretched out, so the dry itself, seems to be stretched out also from the waters, not just waiting to "appear" to eyes when the waters were gathered together.

What is fascinating is that the half of the created waters which were raised from the created earth are the boundary encircling the created, stretched out, heavens, biblically speaking, and the heavens get their name from the waters, and the "shin" -tooth-root element prefixing it.
What is that prefix shortened from -or is it? There are options for choosing, but to ascend, to divide by cutting [the shin sound is the blow of the air divided by the teeth -which are "cutting instruments, so to speak, and does imply a division of something]; to shear off a residue [like the Adam spirit was sheared off and Eve had her "share" of the one spirit -the Hebrew word &#1513;&#1488;&#1512; sh&#277;'ar, in Malachi 2:15, says they were made one spirit, and the &#1513;&#1488;&#1512; sh&#277;'ar of that one gave Eve her share, translated residue]. Anyway there are options to look at, for why the shin precedes the mayim, and is called the name of the heavens -plural.
The stretched out waters may have left a lot of themselves in the stretched out firmament, which gives it the name.

Frankly, there is no way to get an old earth out of Genesis 1, but there is lots of room to investigate the Hebrew [mother tongue] names which the Creator gave everything He gave, to gain understanding and confirmation of the chronological account, just as it is written.

 

[Apostlemoore]

1gen,v1: "in the beginning god created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was void." This means that AFTER god had made the earth it was destroyed, by none other than apollyon/abbados, lucifer, lilith, etc. Jesus plainly says that the god of this world is Satan. That is why in the rest of genesis god is refered to as "us" (satan and his lieutenants) GOD created the first spirits, the shekinah, but we were indeed made by Satan. That is why Jesus said that no man knows god. When Moses saw god it nearly aged him to death! Satan has the intent of retreating heaven on earth. With humans as his creation likeunto his relation with god. If he can do it god will abdicate his majesty, but this will not happen. God and Satan try to posses us to shift us towards their design. God will win, and Satan will attempt to kill us all. We will be saved.

 

[perrfekt]

buncha hoopla running around here lol. some real good answers here, and some misunderstandings as well.

it is pretty clear, that God created night and day prior to vegetation. thats verses 3-5. 11-12 he creates vegetation. 14-15 he made the stars. 26-27 he creates man and woman.

here comes what is called "literal reading". chapter 2 of genesis details the creation of man more in depth. catholic doctrine not sure if this is still canon but used to be) teaches that eve was not the first woman. they say the first was lilith, because in chapter 2 it describes the creation of woman. this second account is not a second process, but just simply recounting in more detail how things happened.

verse 16 of genesis chapter 1 is a recap of what God did in the heavens. it is listed outside of a creation account, meaning, it does not come between "then God said; and it was so". When God created light, there came into existence a source of light. it is not clear wether the sun was created at this point. we just know that he created light, which most likely was the sun.

1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years"

The sun we know does not mark seasons. astrology, which is a study of stars, is able to determine seasons, years, and days. looking at old civilizations, they marked the winter and summer solstices, which are constant, happening on the same day, every year.

contextually, we can assume that the sun was created when God said "let there be light", but as for the moon and stars, we can know that those DID come into existence in verse 14.

read the bible literally. that doesn't mean take every thing in it at literal face value, but read a statement as a statement, a prophecy as a prophecy, and a metaphor as a metaphor. Genesis chapter 1 was written not as metaphor, but as a statement, as fact.