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Norman Giesler and what he says about Calvinism

bleitzel

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Wow, so let's break down Dr. White's noteworthy rebuttal.

He starts off by first blaming Norm Geisler for giving an unworthy parable because in the story God is likened to a farmer not a king, and the boys are just swimming, which we all have done, it’s just a good ol' boy thing. Dr. White tells us that this is where he likes to say “Theology matters.”

Unfortuantely for Dr. White, theology probably does matter. Jesus himself likened God to an estate owner, a vineyard owner, and a farmer on many occasions including the farmer who scattered the seeds along the path. And the boys in Geisler's story were not condemned for swimming, they were condemned for disobeying the clearly marked signs posted by the farmer. Did Dr. White listen to the story? Did he hear the part about the signs? Has he ever read the whole Bible?

And then Dr. White, in his wisdom, creates for us a much more suitable parable. In Dr. White’s parable he creates a castle-burning scenario where the king’s subjects have rioted in the king’s absence. When the king returns and the subjects spit in his face and throw rocks at his firemen, Dr. White now believes the king has ample reason to withdraw from them all aid and allow them to perish in the flames. Seemingly it takes this level of disobedience for Dr. White to believe that sinners deserve hell. Perhaps Dr. White does not truly understand how just the God of the Universe is. Perhaps if Dr. White understood how deplorable all sin was to God, even the seemingly innocuous sin of disobedience as portrayed in Norm Geisler’s parable he might not object to correct biblical teaching. Maybe he would learn something.

And to sum it all up, Dr. White declares that God has the right to save only some of the perishing men because He is sovereign. When Dr. White answers the obvious objection of 'that’s not fair’ he asks why? Why would that not be fair? And then, in an all too telling answer, Dr. White gives us a window into his esteemed level of intellect. He answers the question with this question: Would a governor who pardons a murderer on death row be unfair if he did not also pardon all other murderers? Sound like a reasonable response? It’s laughable because God is not just the warden or governor of the jail, willing to offer some a pardon. But rather he is the legislator who makes the laws, the justice who judges the accused, and even the property owner of our very souls. He makes the rules, he judges the accused, and he punishes the guilty. But before he metes out punishment, he also offers mercy to all who stand trial if they will but bow their head, sink to their knees, worship the just judge and throw themselves upon His feet for mercy. He is not the warden who offers freedom arbitrarily.

When Dr. White foolishly likens God to a governor who pardons one murderer but not others he demonstrates the fallacy of Calvinists, that they believe God gives mercy arbitrarily. That is where we cry unfair, at the idea of arbitrary, not at the idea that God does not have mercy on all. God does not give grace arbitrarily, He offers it to all. It’s up to us to decide to receive it, or spit in His face.
 
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Bob Jones Student

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Wow, so let's break down Dr. White's noteworthy rebuttal.

He starts off by first blaming Norm Geisler for giving an unworthy parable because in the story God is likened to a farmer not a king, and the boys are just swimming, which we all have done, it’s just a good ol' boy thing. Dr. White tells us that this is where he likes to say “Theology matters.”

Unfortuantely for Dr. White, theology probably does matter. Jesus himself likened God to an estate owner, a vineyard owner, and a farmer on many occasions including the farmer who scattered the seeds along the path. And the boys in Geisler's story were not condemned for swimming, they were condemned for disobeying the clearly marked signs posted by the farmer. Did Dr. White listen to the story? Did he hear the part about the signs? Has he ever read the whole Bible?

And then Dr. White, in his wisdom, creates for us a much more suitable parable. In Dr. White’s parable he creates a castle-burning scenario where the king’s subjects have rioted in the king’s absence. When the king returns and the subjects spit in his face and throw rocks at his firemen, Dr. White now believes the king has ample reason to withdraw from them all aid and allow them to perish in the flames. Seemingly it takes this level of disobedience for Dr. White to believe that sinners deserve hell. Perhaps Dr. White does not truly understand how just the God of the Universe is. Perhaps if Dr. White understood how deplorable all sin was to God, even the seemingly innocuous sin of disobedience as portrayed in Norm Geisler’s parable he might not object to correct biblical teaching. Maybe he would learn something.

And to sum it all up, Dr. White declares that God has the right to save only some of the perishing men because He is sovereign. When Dr. White answers the obvious objection of 'that’s not fair’ he asks why? Why would that not be fair? And then, in an all too telling answer, Dr. White gives us a window into his esteemed level of intellect. He answers the question with this question: Would a governor who pardons a murderer on death row be unfair if he did not also pardon all other murderers? Sound like a reasonable response? It’s laughable because God is not just the warden or governor of the jail, willing to offer some a pardon. But rather he is the legislator who makes the laws, the justice who judges the accused, and even the property owner of our very souls. He makes the rules, he judges the accused, and he punishes the guilty. But before he metes out punishment, he also offers mercy to all who stand trial if they will but bow their head, sink to their knees, worship the just judge and throw themselves upon His feet for mercy. He is not the warden who offers freedom arbitrarily.

When Dr. White foolishly likens God to a governor who pardons one murderer but not others he demonstrates the fallacy of Calvinists, that they believe God gives mercy arbitrarily. That is where we cry unfair, at the idea of arbitrary, not at the idea that God does not have mercy on all. God does not give grace arbitrarily, He offers it to all. It’s up to us to decide to receive it, or spit in His face.


Have you not read...

Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
Rom 9:7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."
Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
Rom 9:9 For this is what the promise said: "About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son."
Rom 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,
Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls--
Rom 9:12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--
Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
Joh 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
Joh 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one."
 
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bleitzel

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You've selected some terrific texts.

In Romans 9 Paul is addressing (as he so often did) the idea that whereas the Jews thought that they alone were God's beloved people (all of them, by birth) now it had been shown by the Christ that the Gentiles were also God's children (all of them, by adoption, as it were.) Paul's teaching here is precisely what I was saying, God did NOT arbitrarily pick the Jews alone to be His people. Paul knew what the Jews knew, such a God could not be all loving. Rather, Paul taught that it could now be seen that God chose to offer eternal blessings to all His children, Jew and Gentile.

John 1 is again portraying that all who received Christ became sons of God, it did not rely on their birth as a Jew as was thought. Gentiles were now incuded. That was God's plan.

In John 10 Christ is explaining that He does dutifully fulfill His role and the tasks that the Father has given to Him. In this case, the Father draws all men (as we've just seen from your other two examples). Those that respond He gives over to the Son to hold until the last day, of which the Son will lose none.

If you have any questions on any other scriptures, like Ephesians 1, let me know.
 
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AndOne

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I think White gives a more accurate account of what the reality of the situation is. Remember its Geisler who is trying to represent Calvinism - but his parable falls way short of doing that. That is the problem with Geisler and others like him - they try to define Calvinism before trying to refute it. In essesnce all they are doing is refuting their own definition of Calvinism - not what it is in reality.
 
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bling

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Any illustration we come up with will not explain every situation we find man in. Jesus used three parables and four examples in Luke 15 to try and show those that don’t know they are lost and do not know the way home (the coins), those that know they are lost but do not know the way home (sheep) and those that know the way home and know they are lost (the prodigal son) and those that think they are safe, but are lost (the older son).
When you say a (king) that could easily save everyone in a burning castles, without any loss to himself or others, but only arbitrarily saves a few and lets the other burns, represent of the Calvin “God”, that sounds like this God is not expressing Godly type Love (selflessness/doing everything for the sake of others and not his own sake).
 
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Shulamite

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Any illustration we come up with will not explain every situation we find man in. Jesus used three parables and four examples in Luke 15 to try and show those that don’t know they are lost and do not know the way home (the coins), those that know they are lost but do not know the way home (sheep) and those that know the way home and know they are lost (the prodigal son) and those that think they are safe, but are lost (the older son).
When you say a (king) that could easily save everyone in a burning castles, without any loss to himself or others, but only arbitrarily saves a few and lets the other burns, represent of the Calvin “God”, that sounds like this God is not expressing Godly type Love (selflessness/doing everything for the sake of others and not his own sake).


That is exactly what Paul's hearers thought as well...."Why does God still hold us responsible since no one CAN resist His will?" Romans 9.
The argument itself reveals that the hearer understands what the Spirit is saying through Paul.

As far as God not being a God of love or having a Godly love...."Who are you, o man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, 'what are you doing?'"

What we have here is "man" putting himself on the judgement seat and accusing Romans 9 of depicting God as unloving and unjust. Pauls' hearers said as much and Paul responds, "is there any injustice with God? No!"

Paul is in the same position as those are on this forum who are stating the facts of Election. We simply say: God is God.... He does what He pleases. All things were made by Him and FOR Him. He consults with no man!
 
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bleitzel

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Paul is in the same position as those are on this forum who are stating the facts of Election. We simply say: God is God.... He does what He pleases. All things were made by Him and FOR Him. He consults with no man!
Ah, but unlike people on this forum, Paul was preaching that there is no elect/non-elect. All are elect. When those who thought they were the elect in the elect/nonelect equation then objected that God would not have allowed these dirty Gentiles to join into His family, THAT'S when Paul says who are you to object o man...
 
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bleitzel

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I think White gives a more accurate account of what the reality of the situation is. Remember its Geisler who is trying to represent Calvinism - but his parable falls way short of doing that. That is the problem with Geisler and others like him - they try to define Calvinism before trying to refute it. In essesnce all they are doing is refuting their own definition of Calvinism - not what it is in reality.
Both illustrations are equal, and equally damning. Both illustrations have a supreme God who chooses to save some for no reason of anything they did, but then refuses to save others for no reason of anything they did.
 
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bling

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I suggest you listen to White's illustration - because the one Geisler presents and the one you presented (regarding the king) does not reflect Calvinism and is misrepresentative.

Thanks.

That is what I got out of it could you explain the differences?
 
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bling

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That is exactly what Paul's hearers thought as well...."Why does God still hold us responsible since no one CAN resist His will?" Romans 9.
The argument itself reveals that the hearer understands what the Spirit is saying through Paul.

As far as God not being a God of love or having a Godly love...."Who are you, o man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, 'what are you doing?'"

What we have here is "man" putting himself on the judgement seat and accusing Romans 9 of depicting God as unloving and unjust. Pauls' hearers said as much and Paul responds, "is there any injustice with God? No!"

Paul is in the same position as those are on this forum who are stating the facts of Election. We simply say: God is God.... He does what He pleases. All things were made by Him and FOR Him. He consults with no man!
You are taking Romans 9 out of context and Paul goes on to explain what He means in Romans 10. Paul was addressing the issue the Gentile Christians had with the idea they were not the chosen people of God (the Jews). Paul says, yes God made some that were glorious vessels (Jews) and some that were everyday vessels (gentiles), but it does not matter since all have sinned and all need the same savior.
I am not “talking back to God”, but I am talking to you. God defines Godly type Love (agape) with Jesus’ words and deeds, which does not fit Mr. White’s description of God’s actions which then has to define “Godly type Love” a different way. I go with God’s definition and reject Mr. White’s definition/example of God’s actions.
 
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nobdysfool

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Both illustrations are equal, and equally damning. Both illustrations have a supreme God who chooses to save some for no reason of anything they did, but then refuses to save others for no reason of anything they did.


Since God does not save anyone on the basis of what they did, and does not use their actions as a basis to refuse to save anyone, what's the difference? The whole paradigm proposed is a false one.
 
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bleitzel

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Since God does not save anyone on the basis of what they did, and does not use their actions as a basis to refuse to save anyone, what's the difference?
You're right that there is no real difference between Geisler's portrayal of Calvinist beliefs and White's refutation.

The whole paradigm proposed is a false one.
Well, that is exactly my point. The whole paradigm of a God who does not save anyone on the basis of what they did, and does not use their actions on a basis to refuse to save anyone is a false one. NBF, maybe I have grossly misunderstood your post because your posts are usually the exact opposite of what you've written here. Usually you would have agreed with what Geisler and White have said and would not have called their parables (as presented in the video clip) false. What gives?
 
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AndOne

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Both illustrations are equal, and equally damning. Both illustrations have a supreme God who chooses to save some for no reason of anything they did, but then refuses to save others for no reason of anything they did.

I must have missed something - one illustration demonstrates arminianism - the other calvinism...
 
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bleitzel

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I must have missed something - one illustration demonstrates arminianism - the other calvinism...
No, you totally missed it. Both Geisler and White are describing Calvinism.

Geisler uses an illustration of a farmer (God) who posts a sign telling people not to swim in his lake. (Sin) When some local boys disobey the posted sign, swim in the lake and start drowning, God could have let them all drown-they deserved it- but instead he chooses to save some of them.

White's parable is similar except the townspeople are much more insulting and irreverent to God than in Geisler's parable. But in both stories men defied God, were receiving their just punishement, yet God chose to save some. Both Calvinism.

Even if you just listen to White's commentary it's obvious. He agrees that Geisler is talking about Calvinism, he just disagrees with how depraved the men in the story should be portrayed as.
 
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nobdysfool

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You're right that there is no real difference between Geisler's portrayal of Calvinist beliefs and White's refutation.

Except for the fact that what Geisler claims to be Calvinist beliefs are not, in fact what Calvinism teaches. White's refutation is to correct that error.

bleitzel said:
Well, that is exactly my point. The whole paradigm of a God who does not save anyone on the basis of what they did, and does not use their actions on a basis to refuse to save anyone is a false one.

The alternative is that God does save people based on what they do, and refuses to save others based on what they do, which makes God a respecter of persons, and no better morally than the most moral human, born of Adam. My point is that Scripture specifically teaches that God's Salvation is of His Grace, and as such is not predicated on the actions or inaction of the objects of that Grace.

The natural tendency of man is to believe that anything that comes our way is somehow a result of something we have done. Even something that is a gift gives rise to the idea that in some way, we deserved it. We may dismiss that idea, but deep down, it remains. It takes revelation from the Holy Spirit to accept that God chose whom He has chosen for no other reason than it pleased Him to do so, and that they had absolutely nothing to do with that choice, and did not have any effect on it, either directly or indirectly.

bleitzel said:
NBF, maybe I have grossly misunderstood your post because your posts are usually the exact opposite of what you've written here. Usually you would have agreed with what Geisler and White have said and would not have called their parables (as presented in the video clip) false. What gives?

Perhaps you haven't really considered what I have said, outside of the prejudices that non-Calvinists usually carry and apply to anything a Calvinist says. Too many times, I have asked questions that go unanswered, because the obvious answer would expose the errors of those who think they know what Calvinism teaches, when they demonstrate very clearly that they do not know it correctly, and refuse to be corrected in that understanding.
 
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AndOne

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Thanks NBF - very good response - couldn't have said it better myslef - so I defer to your post as my response to post #17.

The whole to point of this thread was to demonstrate Geisler's error of how he represents Calvinism - NOT to show how Geisler and White describe Calvinism each in his own way. Geisler misrepresents Calvinism - White corrects him.
 
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Ghost air

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Too many times, I have asked questions that go unanswered, because the obvious answer would expose the errors of those who think they know what Calvinism teaches, when they demonstrate very clearly that they do not know it correctly, and refuse to be corrected in that understanding.

I see this as well, you can ask simple questions and yet there's no response because the answer is obvious.
 
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