Who did away with the law?

[bugkiller]

Believe what your bible says bugkiller!

I do believe my Bible - you? My bible says that no man can live who sees God the Father. Ex 33:20. Thousands have seen Jesus and lived. So who is the entity that Moses talked with? God does not change or lie.

Your Corinthian quote is using the TITLE Christ meaning Messiah in the sense of deliverer, not Redeemer. And for you information the word for rock is petra. It is a comparative reference like the Deut references.

And you will say that I disbelieve the Scripture. I can live with that.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

here bugkiller,

i found some more verses for you. hope they help you out.

Exodus 3:13-14 ( NKJV ) 13Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to
them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say
to them?”
14And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM
has sent me to you.’”

John 8:52-59 ( NKJV ) 52Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and
the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53Are You greater than our
father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”
54Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that
He is your God. 55Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be
a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he
saw it and was glad.”
57Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
59Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through
the midst of them, and so passed by.

Yes, am very familiar with the verses you quoted. I think that the NKJV is polluted to convey a theological stance here. The KJV uses lower case for the am in verse 58. When I read the statement I hear Jesus referring to His eternal existence and that is all. By changing to Caps the verse takes on a different meaning. So context here is king once again. Jesus is not claiming to be THE I AM THAT I AM.

Do you have another proof text?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

there were two sets because moses broke the first set.

so, God rewrote the ten commandments for them.

also of note, in both instances, God wrote the commandments Himself.

and yes, i'm saying that the ten were not part of the book of the law.

So I have a question for you since you maintain that Jesus wrote the ten commandments. Why do you use God and not Jesus? I thgink this allows for a problem and definitely a point of contention. It shows up in other instances of your stated viewpoint.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Moses and many a prophet spoke Gods Own Words. I do not relegate those words to the man in whom they came.



The Law retains jurisdication in the revealing, arousing and condemnation of THE LAWLESS for whom it was intended to be against. In that same LAW is the Spirit of LOVE. The LAW is simultaneously FOR LOVE and AGAINST lawlessness.



I do not say that the power of sin or evil present IN ANY including MYSELF is LEGAL or LAW ABIDING, nor CAN it be. Love however DOES comply with EVERY jot and tittle of THE LAW as stipulated in Romans 13:8-10.

The power of SIN and EVIL PRESENT cannot do that OR be LAWful in any way, shape or form. IF you insist that the LAW is and only consists of EXTERNAL FLESHLY ORDINANCE MATTERS that would be false presentation of LAW:

Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

For the record I would not have any problem with ANYONE following the O.T. Laws as they see fit with the realization of the fact that the power of sin and evil present are not LAWFUL in them while so following. Paul exhibited this exact fact many times by participation in various legal matters, rituals etc etc.



My observations have been made. No man is justified under the LAW because of what they carry in their flesh/mind, that being the power of SIN and EVIL PRESENT. Those things REMAIN condemned under LAW, condemned apart from LAW, condemned under GRACE, condemned apart from GRACE.


Never said you did that I recall. I certainly might have said that MANY have a hard time coming to grips with the fact that SATAN enters where THE WORD is sown (in man) and THAT ENTITY is and remains TOTALLY LAWLESS and utterly corrupt. I have no issues understanding this fact in the light of the disclosures of scripture.

The entry of SATAN is a scriptural fact and that fact goes a long way in helping understand these matters of LAW and of LOVE or the lack thereof AND inability OF man to 'be legal' regardless WHEN that entity is PRESENT with them.

enjoy!

squint

I find only despair in your remarks.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Now yall believe that Moses spoke to Christ at Mt. Sinai?

Nope! Ex 33:20.

bugkiller

 

[squint]

I find only despair in your remarks.

bugkiller

Your finding does not equate to what was said.

 

[bugkiller]

Your finding does not equate to what was said.

I was not trying to be equal or say the same thing as you. You know better than that. And my reason is not for the sake of argument.

bugkiller

 

[Frogster]

Your finding does not equate to what was said.

You know what it is bro...

Paul saw sin dwelling evil present, but he rejoiced in his justification.

Rom 5;2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Chapters 6 & 7, were parenthetical, then he went on to 8.


Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

See what I mean?

 

[Frogster]

Yes He did and He also knew that people like you would misunderstand, misinterupt and misrepresent what He was saying through Paul.
Not to worry, you've already said too much.

Your right...silly vast majority of ignorant Christians who don't think we are bound to the law of Moses.

 

[visionary]

Now yall believe that Moses spoke to Christ at Mt. Sinai?
Acts 7:38
This is he [Yeshua], that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who [Yeshua]received the lively oracles to give unto us:

 

[bugkiller]

Now yall believe that Moses spoke to Christ at Mt. Sinai?
Acts 7:38
This is he [Yeshua], that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who [Yeshua]received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Then Moses lied in Ex 33:20 and is not trustworthy. By your idea Moses is a proven liar.

I think your problem is the way you see the trinity and understand pronouns.

bugkiller

 

[squint]

You know what it is bro...

Paul saw sin dwelling evil present, but he rejoiced in his justification.

Paul saw? Paul HAD. He did not spread GRACE to those workings or powers that were with him, nor did the messenger of satan that was put IN his FLESH receive GRACE. That DEVIL is going to FRY, no grace about it.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

See what I mean?

Paul understood CLEARLY that those workings WERE NOT HIM, even though he carried same. GRACE does not extend to that which he carried in his flesh. Not ONE SINGLE WORKING of the POWER OF SIN in reaction to THE LAW that transpired IN Paul received GRACE.

Romans 7:

"But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence."

"For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."

"For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I."

"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."

NONE of those workings are BLESSED of GRACE in anyone.

 

[JohnRabbit]

So I have a question for you since you maintain that Jesus wrote the ten commandments. Why do you use God and not Jesus? I thgink this allows for a problem and definitely a point of contention. It shows up in other instances of your stated viewpoint.

bugkiller

i use God because that is who He was known by then.

you are amazing!

example:

Exodus 6:2-3 ( NKJV ) 2And God spoke to Moses and said to him: “I am the Lord. 3I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name Lord I was not known to them.

the word "Lord" in this verse is from the hebrew "YHWH", which was translated as "I AM" in ex. 3:14.

so, you see? the patriarchs called by what He was known as then too.

i think that the problem you point out in your post is just all in your head.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Yes, am very familiar with the verses you quoted. I think that the NKJV is polluted to convey a theological stance here. The KJV uses lower case for the am in verse 58. When I read the statement I hear Jesus referring to His eternal existence and that is all. By changing to Caps the verse takes on a different meaning. So context here is king once again. Jesus is not claiming to be THE I AM THAT I AM.

Do you have another proof text?

bugkiller

you can hear what you want. the verses speak for themselves, so you'll get no argument from me.

 

[JohnRabbit]

You have not identified the covenant conveyed from Mount Sinai, of which there was only one with that origin. If you want to contend that the ten commandments wasn't that covenant, it is incumbent on you to furnish the covenant, "the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage" (Galatians 4:24). You also fail to reconcile your preclusion with Romans 7:6, "now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by", and "the law" in this passage is identified as the ten commandments by quoting it in the following verse.

Didn't anyone ever tell you that old covenant Christianity is a oxymoron?

i've already been over all of that you got posted above.

interesting thing about that old covenant, the only thing the apostles had to go on was the law and the prophets.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Ohhhhh Rabbit....

No no no..redeemed from the curses of BREAKING THE LAW...is what I said.

In this long scrolling post, you avoided the simple question.

Were we redeemed from only a part of the curse of the law..the 10 were not included in that redemption?

One more time..


Deut 27:26 “‘Cursed be anyone who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’


here....


Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”


Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—

I await.

i see you're going into circle mode.

 

[VictorC]

Yes, am very familiar with the verses you quoted. I think that the NKJV is polluted to convey a theological stance here. The KJV uses lower case for the am in verse 58. When I read the statement I hear Jesus referring to His eternal existence and that is all. By changing to Caps the verse takes on a different meaning. So context here is king once again. Jesus is not claiming to be THE I AM THAT I AM.

We should take a look at the context your problem verse appears in John 8.

52 Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”
54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.​

Jesus claimed to be present before Abraham, and this passage tells of the timeless existence of the pre-incarnate Jesus. When He claimed the proper title of I AM to identify Himself as the One Who spoke to Moses from the burning bush, those in attendance understood what He meant - and picked up stones in response to His apparent blasphemy. When Hebrews 10:5 states of Jesus "when He came into the world, He said ... a body You have prepared for Me", it affirms there was Someone present prior to filling that body.

The 1982 NKJV is one of the most trustworthy translations I have come to know. That's why I use it nearly exclusively in the quotes I provide.

 

[VictorC]

i've already been over all of that you got posted above.

interesting thing about that old covenant, the only thing the apostles had to go on was the law and the prophets.

They relied on the testimony Moses provided them, found in Deuteronomy 4:

9 Only take heed to yourself, and diligently keep yourself, lest you forget the things your eyes have seen, and lest they depart from your heart all the days of your life. And teach them to your children and your grandchildren, 10 especially concerning the day you stood before the LORD your God in Horeb, when the LORD said to me, ‘Gather the people to Me, and I will let them hear My words, that they may learn to fear Me all the days they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children.’
11 “Then you came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire to the midst of heaven, with darkness, cloud, and thick darkness. 12 And the LORD spoke to you out of the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of the words, but saw no form; you only heard a voice. 13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. 14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might observe them in the land which you cross over to possess.​

This is a recital of the events recorded in Exodus 20-24, when the ten commandments was conveyed to the children of Israel. Following this testimony in Deuteronomy 4, Moses then states the same covenant in the following chapter, Deuteronomy 5:

1 And Moses called all Israel, and said to them: “Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your hearing today, that you may learn them and be careful to observe them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The LORD did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive. 4 The LORD talked with you face to face on the mountain from the midst of the fire. 5 I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the LORD; for you were afraid because of the fire, and you did not go up the mountain. He said:
6 ‘I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
7 ‘You shall have no other gods before Me.
8 ‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 10 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
11 ‘You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
12 ‘ Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. 15 And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
16 ‘ Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may be well with you in the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
17 ‘You shall not murder.
18 ‘You shall not commit adultery.
19 ‘You shall not steal.
20 ‘You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
21 ‘You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife; and you shall not desire your neighbor’s house, his field, his male servant, his female servant, his ox, his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.’
22 “These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.​

In case you're having difficulty recognizing the covenant Moses documented in this chapter, that is the ten commandments. That was the only covenant that originated from Mount Sinai, as Moses taught the book of the law at Horeb. This singularity of origin is what Galatians 4:24 refers to when it introduces the allegory of the bondwoman with these words:

For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar...​

The ten commandments was the first covenant, the only covenant from Mount Sinai. It isn't possible for you to feign ignorance considering how many times this has been shown to you.

 

[VictorC]

You also fail to reconcile your preclusion with Romans 7:6, "now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by", and "the law" in this passage is identified as the ten commandments by quoting it in the following verse.

i've already been over all of that you got posted above.

And yet you continue to state that the ten commandments is still binding over God's redeemed, in direct contradiction to Scripture.

 

[JohnRabbit]

And yet you continue to state that the ten commandments is still binding over God's redeemed, in direct contradiction to Scripture.

it's just how you spin it.

unlike you i believe Christ died for our sins not so that we don't have to keep God's laws.

that's where we disagree.