Of course.
The ECFs tell us that the Patriarchs share in this authority. Chrysostom is a favorite of mine and I know our Churches love him dearly as a Saint.
However, we will find that both our Churches recognize a Primacy to the authority given to Peter. I recall one writing saying that Peter's auhtority with the Keys extended to highest levels of Heaven and that the other Patriarchs did not.
It would be great if you could quote/cite this.
It has been a couple years since I got into reading the ECFs. But I would love to remove the cobwebs.
When it comes to the ECFs I find so much in common with the EOC and OOC. Kind of refreshing actually.
No. They recognise Primacy, but not in authority.
John Chrysostom is a perfect example of this. His very life demonstrates this. He spent much of his life taking holy orders and then moving up through the ranks in Antioch, under the auspices of those not in communion with Rome (which I evidence in greater detail at the end of this post in an Appendix - should you wish to take the time to read)
Later when he was in trouble in his See he appealed to the Pope for help AND to several other westerners in exactly the same terms. His appeal to the Pope was not in anyway different from that of other western leaders.
Appedndix
He was ordained by Meletius who was not in communion with Rome (which itself undermines the Catholic position)...
"The work of the Council of Constantinople was completed. Theologically, it had carried the logic of the Council of Nicea and cautiously applied that Council's reasoning about the Son's relation to the Father to the Holy Spirit, though confining its statement to biblical terminology. Administratively, the Council continued the eastern practice of accommodating the ecclesiastical organization to the civil organisation of the Empire, sowing the seeds for discord among the four great sees of East and West by raising the ecclesiastical status of Constantinople to correspond to its civil position as New Rome. All in all, it proved to be a remarkable Council. It was never intended to be an ecumenical council: the Bishop of Rome was not invited: only 150 Eastern bishops were present; only one by accident from the West. Only at the Council of Chalcedon of 451 did it begin to rank in the East with the Council of Nicea as more than a local council. Because of the schism at Antioch its first president,
Meletius, was not in communion with Rome and Alexandria. Its second president, Gregory of Nazianzus, was not in western eyes the legitimate bishop of Constantinople. Strong doubts were later expressed about the authenticity of its creed. Its canons were rejected in the west for nine hundred years.
Davis L. D., (1990), "The First Seven Ecumenical Councils (325-787) Their History and Theology", (Liturgical Press, Minnesota), pp128-129.
This Orthodox saint (and doctor of the western church) was ordained a lector by St. Meletius, Patriarch of Antioch (370), and then to the diaconate (381). Later to the priesthood by Meletius' successor St. Flavian (386).
"Under Patriarchs Meletius and Flavian, Antioch and Rome were not in communion with each other. It must be emphasized that by receiving ordination at the hands of St. Flavian and St. Meletius, St. John unreservedly recognised them as genuine successors to the see of Antioch. By the very act of receiving ordination from these prelates, he was knowingly placing himself outside communion with Rome."
Whelton, M., (2006), "Popes and Patriarchs: An Orthodox Perspective on Roman Catholic Claims", (Concillar Press; Ben Lomond, CA), p110
John Chrysostom wrote most of his works whilst not in communion with Rome.
Whelton then goes on to detail the reason for the schism; based on the loyalty towards St Meletius. Who interestingly enough was still elected president of a council of 150 bishops convened by the Emperor (The Second Ecumenical Council).
"Because of the schism at Antioch, its first president, Meletius, was not in communion with Rome and Alexandria."
Davis L. D., (1990), "The First Seven Ecumenical Councils (325-787) Their History and Theology", (Liturgical Press, Minnesota), p129
"It was presided over at first by St. Meletius, the bishop of Antioch who was bishop not in communion with Rome"
NPNF2-14. The Seven Ecumenical Councils
This site gives this footnote
E. B. Pusey. The Councils of the Church , a.d. 51381, p. 306. Tillemont, Mémoires , xvj., 662, who says, If none of those who die out of communion with Rome can merit the title of Saints and Confessors, Baronius should have the names of St. Meletius, St. Elias of Jerusalem and St. Daniel the Stylite stricken from the Martyrology. Cf . F. W. Puller, The Primitive Saints and See of Rome , pp. 174 and 238. Many attempts have been made to explain this fact away, but without success. Not only was the president of the Council a persona non grata to the Pope, but the members of the Council were well aware of the fact, and much pleased that such was the case, and Hefele acknowledges that the reason the council determined to continue the Meletian Schism was because allowing Paulinus to succeed to Meletius would be too great a concession to the Latins (vol. III., p. 346).
This same quote is probably taken from another source...
"It was presided over at first by St. Meletius, the bishop of Antioch who was bishop not in communion with Rome"
Percival, H. R. (ed.), (1988) "The Seven Ecumenical Councils of the Undivided Church_, Vol XIV of Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers", 2nd series, edd. Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, (repr. Edinburgh: T&T Clark; Grand Rapids MI: Wm.B. Eerdmans)
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/const1.txt
STRENGTHENING BRETHREN (This Rock: January 1998) Says that the Pope sent Lucifer to Antioch with authority...
"Pope Liberius authorized Athanasius to convoke a council to resolve the schism in Antioch. He sent two legates (Eusebius and Lucifer) with jurisdiction and authority in the East to preside with Athanasius over a council in Alexandria. The synod at Alexandria accepted the regularity of Meletiuss ordination. It appointed an Episcopal commission, which included the papal legates, to reconcile the divided Catholics in Antioch."
What did he do...
"Lucifer goes to Antioch and consecrates Paulinus.
It was decided therefore that Lucifer should go to Antioch in Syria, and Eusebius to Alexandria, that by assembling a Synod in conjunction with Athanasius, they might confirm the doctrines of the church. Lucifer sent a deacon as his representative, by whom he pledged himself to assent to whatever the Synod might decree; but he himself went to Antioch, where he found the church in great disorder, the people not being agreed among themselves. For not only did the Arian heresy, which had been introduced by Euzoius, divide the church, but, as we before said, the followers of Meletius also, from attachment to their teacher, separated themselves from those with whom they agreed in sentiment. When therefore Lucifer had constituted Paulinus their bishop, he again departed."
Socrates Scholasticus
"The Ecclesiastical History" Book III.6
Thus the Papal person proclaimed Paulinus bishop in direct opposition to Meletius. Meletius continued with his own support in direct opposition to the decision of the Pope's man.
"Now recall that Paulinus is the Pope's man. Meletius continued to hold church services (outside the city walls) during this time. And the two continued in 'office'. One not being the Pope's choice. An arrangement was made that when one died, the other would succeed."
Socrates Scholasticus
"The Ecclesiastical History" Book V.5
Paulinus actually argued from canon law that there should not be a co-bishop!
And of John Chrysostom; continually consecrated by Meletius, he later separated from him WITHOUT joining in communion with the Pope's man, Paulinus.
see Socrates Scholasticus
"The Ecclesiastical History"Book VI.3
"About this period Meletius, bishop of Antioch, fell sick and died: in whose praise Gregory, the brother of Basil, pronounced a funeral oration. The body of the deceased bishop was by his friends conveyed to Antioch; where those who had identified themselves with his interests again refused subjection to Paulinus, but caused Flavian to be substituted in the place of Meletius, and the people began to quarrel anew. Thus again the Antiochian church was divided into rival factions, not grounded on any difference of faith, but simply on a preference of bishops.
Socrates Scholasticus
"The Ecclesiastical History" Book V.9
And as noted John Chrysostom took orders from Flavian (after Meletius' death). Flavian was not in favour with Alexandria nor Rome. Flavian then sent messengers to Alexandria AND Rome to work out peace.
see Socrates Scholasticus
"The Ecclesiastical History" Book V.15
At that time there were several and rival claimants to be the proper patriarch in Antioch. Paulinus was the man favoured by Rome and Alexandria. Meletius was favoured by others. Jerome accompanied Paulinus back to Rome in order to get more support for him.
