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Can Christianity survive without the Pope?

Can Christianity survive without the Pope today

  • Sure It can!

  • No It cannot!

  • Other


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LittleLambofJesus

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Stryder06

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Obviously Christ is the head of the Church.
Not so obvious considering the conversation at hand

Who did he give the keys to the Kingdom to?
Has it been established what that means exactly?

Who has the authority to speak for Christ on earth?
Wouldn't we all as Christians be speaking on behalf of Christ to the lost?

Do you? You seem to be claiming that authority.
A better question would be who doesn't.
 
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Fireinfolding

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chestertonrules

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Not so obvious considering the conversation at hand


Has it been established what that means exactly?


Wouldn't we all as Christians be speaking on behalf of Christ to the lost?


A better question would be who doesn't.


You don't and I don't.

Jesus gave that authority to the leaders of the Church. It is theirs to confer on whom they choose as guide by the Holy Spirit.

The rest of us are to follow their message.
 
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Stryder06

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You don't and I don't.

Jesus gave that authority to the leaders of the Church. It is theirs to confer on whom they choose as guide by the Holy Spirit.

The rest of us are to follow their message.

Sorry I don't recall Christ limiting who could speak on His behalf. Was John the baptist speaking on Christ's behalf when He gave orders for sinners to repent?

What you believe is steeped in church tradition, not scripture.
 
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Montalban

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Obviously Christ is the head of the Church.

Who did he give the keys to the Kingdom to?
All the Apostles, and through them all - the church.



17. He has given, therefore, the keys to His Church, that whatsoever it should bind on earth might be bound in heaven, and whatsoever it should loose on earth might be loosed in heaven; that is to say, that whosoever in the Church should not believe that his sins are remitted, they should not be remitted to him; but that whosoever should believe and should repent, and turn from his sins, should be saved by the same faith and repentance on the ground of which he is received into the bosom of the Church. For he who does not believe that his sins can be pardoned, falls into despair, and becomes worse as if no greater good remained for him than to be evil, when he has ceased to have faith in the results of his own repentance.
Augustine “City of God”

Augustine notes that the keys are given to the whole church
"He has given, therefore, the keys to His Church, that whatsoever it should bind on earth might be bound in heaven, and whatsoever it should loose on earth might be, loosed in heaven"
"On Christian Doctrine"
Book I, Chapter 18.17
and again...
"...the keys that were given to the Church,"
A Treatise Concerning the Correction of the Donatists
Chapter 10.45

and
"How the Church? Why, to her it was said, "To thee I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatsoever thou shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven, and whatsoever thou shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven."
"Ten Homilies on the First Epistle of John"
Homily X.10


Cyprian
Cyprian acknowledges, of course, that Peter was the first to get the keys, but then adds
"Assuredly the rest of the apostles were also the same as was Peter, endowed with a like partnership both of honour and power; but the beginning proceeds from unity."
On the Unity of the Church Treatise I.4


John Cassian
But what are the other words which follow that saying of the Lord's, with which He commends Peter? "And I," said He, "say unto thee, that thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church." Do you see how the saying of Peter is the faith of the Church? He then must of course be outside the Church, who does not hold the faith of the Church. "And to thee," saith the Lord, "I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven." This faith deserved heaven: this faith received the keys of the heavenly kingdom. See what awaits you. You cannot enter the gate to which this key belongs, if you have denied the faith of this key. "And the gate," He adds, "of hell shall not prevail against thee." The gates of hell are the belief or rather the misbelief of heretics. For widely as hell is separated from heaven, so widely is he who denies from him who confessed that Christ is God. "Whatsoever," He proceeds, "thou shalt bind on earth, shalt be bound in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, shalt be loosed also in heaven." The perfect faith of the Apostle somehow is given the power of Deity, that what it should bind or loose on earth, might be bound or loosed in heaven. For you then, who come against the Apostle's faith, as you see that already you are bound on earth, it only remains that you should know that you are bound also in heaven. But it would take too long to go into details which are so numerous as to make a long and wearisome story, even if they are related with brevity and conciseness."
"On the Incarnation of the Lord, Against Nestorius"
Book III
Chapter XIV "How the confession of the blessed Peter is the faith of the whole Church."

John Chrysostom
”For the Son of thunder (John the Apostle), the beloved of Christ, the pillar of the Churches throughout the world, who holds the keys of heaven, who drank the cup of Christ, and was baptized with His baptism, who lay upon his Master’s bosom, with much confidence, this man now comes forward to us now
Homilies on the Gospel of John, Homily 1.1
 
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chestertonrules

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I dont recall anywhere that Christ would be replaced by the pope. He leads His people not by man but by His Spirit.

It is not a replacement. Haven't you learned a single thing about the Catholic Church over these years of posting.

You sem to be incapable of changing your views even when you are proven wrong.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Sorry I don't recall Christ limiting who could speak on His behalf. Was John the baptist speaking on Christ's behalf when He gave orders for sinners to repent?

What you believe is steeped in church tradition, not scripture.


How many people did Jesus promise the Keys to Heaven and Earth?

Who did Jesus tell to feed His sheep?


* Please use scripture to answer please.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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All the Apostles, and through them all - the church.


Of course. :)

The ECFs tell us that the Patriarchs share in this authority. Chrysostom is a favorite of mine and I know our Churches love him dearly as a Saint.

However, we will find that both our Churches recognize a Primacy to the authority given to Peter. I recall one writing saying that Peter's auhtority with the Keys extended to highest levels of Heaven and that the other Patriarchs did not.

It has been a couple years since I got into reading the ECFs. But I would love to remove the cobwebs. ;)

When it comes to the ECFs I find so much in common with the EOC and OOC. Kind of refreshing actually. :cool:
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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How many people did Jesus promise the Keys to Heaven and Earth?

Who did Jesus tell to feed His sheep?
* Please use scripture to answer please.
Seems like Matt 16:19 implies it was only to Peter :confused:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Isaiah 22:22 And I give Key of house of David on shoulder-blade of Him,
and He opens and no one is locking and He locks and is no one opening.
[Reve 3:7]

Matthew 16:19 "I shall be giving to thee the Keys of the kingdom of the heavens.
And which if-ever thou should be binding upon the land, shall be having been bound in the heavens, and which if ever thou should be loosing upon the land, shall be having been loosed in the heavens.

Reve 3:7 And to the Messenger of the in filadelfeia out-called write!
Now-this is saying the Holy, the True, the One-having the Key of David, the one opening and no one shall be *locking and locking and no-one is opening.
[Isaiah 22:22]

Reve 1:18 and the living One! And I became dead and behold! I am living into the Ages of the Ages.
And I am having the Keys of the Hades and of the Death
 
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blessedmomof5

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I voted sure it can!!!!!!

wish i got here sooner there are so many pages to read.
But wanted to add LLOJ i just Love the way you put things.
Great thread and interesting to see the results of the poll....


Greetings. I see the peter and pope threads are being discussed ad-nauseam again so I would like to make a simple poll for ALL denominations to answer. I am not talking about if he was simply a Bishop of Rome and only for that city but a Grand Pope of all Christianity.

So this poll is quite simple "CAN CHRISTIANITY SURVIVE TODAY WITHOUT THE POPE/PAPACY OF ROME"
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Seems like Matt 16:19 implies it was only to Peter :confused:


Scripture does not mention any of the other Apostles in reference to the Keys and nor does it references all Christians or all in Christ.

However, the ECFs had teachings from Jesus through the Apostles not found in what we have in scripture today. These ECFs wrote of teachings that were continued through oral tradition at the Apostolic Churches.

If we use scripture alone it is possible for one to say that only Peter had the Keys and their authority. That, of course, has it's own ramifications depending on further interpretations using scripture alone.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Scripture does not mention any of the other Apostles in reference to the Keys and nor does it references all Christians or all in Christ.

However, the ECFs had teachings from Jesus through the Apostles not found in what we have in scripture today. These ECFs wrote of teachings that were continued through oral tradition at the Apostolic Churches.

If we use scripture alone it is possible for one to say that only Peter had the Keys and their authority. That, of course, has it's own ramifications depending on further interpretations using scripture alone.
I can understand that.
I also made this poll thread in relation to Catholicism and Peter.
I don't think even the EOs focus on him as much as does the RCC, but I could be mistaken.

What I can't understand is, why did the thread at this link get moved to the Denomination-specific Theology board :confused:

http://www.christianforums.com/t6958045-5/#post51146994http://www.christianforums.com/t6958045/
Does the Roman Church focus on Peter too much
 
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prodromos

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How many people did Jesus promise the Keys to Heaven and Earth?
How many of the Apostles did He give the same authority of binding and loosing attached to those keys?
Who did Jesus tell to feed His sheep?
Why wasn't it necessary for Him to tell the other Apostles the same? (Hint: only one of them had denied Him three times)
* Please use scripture to answer please.
You suddenly have a problem with Tradition?

John
 
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JacktheCatholic

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How many of the Apostles did He give the same authority of binding and loosing attached to those keys?
Why wasn't it necessary for Him to tell the other Apostles the same? (Hint: only one of them had denied Him three times)
You suddenly have a problem with Tradition?

John


Good morning John,

Glad to see I am not the only one up this early.

It is 6:00 am here in Michigan.

My post was directed to Stryder06.

I know the EOC and OOC see that the Keys and their power was shared among the Patriarchs with a Primacy to Peter. I think Chrysostom wrote about such and some of the ECFs.

That is why our church shares in the Apostolic Tradition of knowing we have a Church directly connected to our Patriarchs. :)


Jack
 
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prodromos

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Good morning John,

Glad to see I am not the only one up this early.

It is 6:00 am here in Michigan.
It's around 8:45pm in my neck of the woods. I'll be heading off to bed pretty soon :)
 
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It is not a replacement. Haven't you learned a single thing about the Catholic Church over these years of posting.

You sem to be incapable of changing your views even when you are proven wrong.
Proven wrong in what? That there is need for a Pope? No need for a pope to lead His people. For it is His Spirit that lead us to all truth not the pope. What are the Keys to the kingdom of God? Jesus tells us.. Lest one is born again he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Who is it that makes one born again? Not Peter. Not the Pople. It is God who causes us to be born again.
 
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