Forcing the Chruch to accept homosexuality..

[.Iona.]

So your statement read more accurately:
He didn't push anyone away who was willing to repent of their sin and truly sought God. In Reality Jesus condemned many actions, and told stories of sinners going to Hell if they did not repent. Their was not a blanket acceptance for everyone no matter what.

Look at how He spoke to the Pharisees and makers of the Law. Do not fool yourself. Christ is about Standards and redemption. If one can not reach a standard, then redemption can be found, but only through repentance of sin.

I guess by christian standards, Christ wasn't very christian like. If we are not to "Blindly follow" this means we have to cast off the ideas that do not conform to Christ. Even if they are "christian" in nature.

It is not down to man to judge anyone else. We will all face judgement, and what I do can only truly be judged by God, not you or any other man.

I follow the teachings of Christ, but will question what the church says and teaches. Just because they are a church, doesn't mean they have it right.

 

[ARBITER01]

Religious Girl,
No, the church is the body of believers, it cant accept non-believers and atheists etc. You will see from His Biblical testimony that Jesus Christ is accepting of everyone who chooses Him, but not accepting of those who don’t. Christ accepts all people, He doesnt accept their sinful identities.
There is no such thing as gay people in God’s creation. People who identify themselves as gay need to accept God’s purposes and thus their identity in Christ, which means they will no longer be gay people but Christians. Then they can be in the church. God accepts who He has created and comes to Christ, God isnt dictated to by people calling themselves gay and demanding God recognise sin.
The whole pro-gay liberal argument is not just un-Christian but anti-Christian.

That is correct. We are to judge those within the church, not those outside of the church. We are separate from them now after being born again by GOD.

1Co 5:9 I wrote to you in the letter not to associate with fornicators;
1Co 5:10 and not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or with plunderers, or with idolaters, since then you must go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I wrote to you not to associate intimately; if anyone is called a brother and is either a fornicator, or a covetous one, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a plunderer, with such a one not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what is it to me also to judge the ones outside? Do you not judge those inside?
1Co 5:13 But God will judge the ones outside. "And you shall put out from yourselves the evil one."

 

[Phinehas2]

Religious Girl,

I follow the teachings of Christ, but will question what the church says and teaches.

On this forum I have at length given passage after passge from the Bible on this matter, thanks to ARBITER01 for the latest set.
All you have done is claim you follow Christ whilst denying or ignoring Christ's teaching as posted.

 

[.Iona.]

Religious Girl,
On this forum I have at length given passage after passge from the Bible on this matter, thanks to ARBITER01 for the latest set.
All you have done is claim you follow Christ whilst denying or ignoring Christ's teaching as posted.

I am not denying or ignoring Christ's teaching. You are interpreting it in one way, and I another. I don't need to post bible quote after bible quote, I know what I believe.

Your attitudes here push people away from God, you aren't allowing people to follow Him. If I wasn't a Christian and came upon the things you are saying, I would not want to associated with this God. Like I have said before, God will judge me and everyone else. Not you or your standards. Concentrate on your own life, rather than trying to make others change or leave God altogether.

 

[onemorequestion]

You, of all people, should know what 'the criteria' for salvation is as found in John 3:16. Have you actually read it? It says, "those who believe on Jesus Christ will receive salvation." It says nothing about having to be heterosexual in order to believe.

Homosexual behavior is a sin.

Here's some criteria per Jesus:

15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.

16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

- Matthew 18: 15-17

 

[drich0150]

It is not down to man to judge anyone else. We will all face judgment, and what I do can only truly be judged by God, not you or any other man.

Judgment as the bible condemns it includes a punishment. We are not allowed to punish sinners. But according to Christ in Mt 7 there will be many that come and teach a Gospel other than the Gospel of Repentance Jesus teaches. It is by using our "judgment" of their fruit will we recognize them.

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

I follow the teachings of Christ, but will question what the church says and teaches. Just because they are a church, doesn't mean they have it right.

...and just because you or I want to follow Christ doesn't mean we have it right either. That is why we must compare what we do with scripture.

That said if you have taken the time to read my Op you will have noted that I am not of the position that Homosexuals should be shunned by the church, but also it should be known that an all encompassing acceptance is not the scripturally back belief I am representing either.

I am asking that we change the beliefs that allow us to mindlessly fight in favor of a method that separates those who want to simply argue the acceptance of homosexuality in the church, from those looking for God.
For those looking for God we must (As outlined by Christ) introduce them to the gospel of repentance, and help them put down the idea of blanket acceptance. Which is a teaching that is not of Christ. Even though it is represented by the church more and more.

 

[onemorequestion]

I am not denying or ignoring Christ's teaching. You are interpreting it in one day, and I another. I don't need to post bible quote after bible quote, I know what I believe.

Jesus used scripture to prove his positions time and time again.

Your attitudes here push people away from God, you aren't allowing people to follow Him.

People refuse God all on their own. No one drives someone away from God.

I hated judgmental Christians year after year until their unwavering commitment to truth had me seeing the Light of Christ's salvation.

If I wasn't a Christian and came upon the things you are saying, I would not want to associated with this God.

Are you putting your faith on people even still?

Like I have said before, God will judge me and everyone else. Not you or your standards. Concentrate on your own life, rather than trying to make others change or leave God altogether.

That's quite and odd opinion, because as anyone with an honest mind can see, it is the gay crowd demanding that we change everything in Christian holiness for them. No exceptions need apply.

Holiness will not be mocked by the political correctness of western secularists barging their way into the Church.

Per scripture. I'll post the references only if you ask. I wouldn't want to force my beliefs on you.

 

[drich0150]

I don't need to post bible quote after bible quote, I know what I believe.

In your post to me you have trivialized the authority of the church, and now you admit your beliefs are not tied to scripture. So even if you know what you believe how do you know what you believe is of God?

 

[drich0150]

That is correct. We are to judge those within the church, not those outside of the church. We are separate from them now after being born again by GOD.

This argument is directed at those in the church who argue a pro gay or represent a doctrine of acceptance rather than repentance.

 

[onemorequestion]

So your statement read more accurately:
He didn't push anyone away who was willing to repent of their sin and truly sought God. In Reality Jesus condemned many actions, and told stories of sinners going to Hell if they did not repent. Their was not a blanket acceptance for everyone no matter what.

That is absolutely correct. Provably and absolutely correct.

Look at how He spoke to the Pharisees and makers of the Law. Do not fool yourself. Christ is about Standards and redemption. If one can not reach a standard, then redemption can be found, but only through repentance of sin.

Set aside the religious politcal appointees of King Herod (The Pharisees) and think abouyt how many people walked away from Jesus and His teachings? So much for the lovey-dovey Jesus.He stood His ground and never weakened in the face of social culture.

I guess by christian standards, Christ wasn't very christian like.

Christian means Christ like. There is no other Christ. How intolerant.

If we are not to "Blindly follow" this means we have to cast off the ideas that do not conform to Christ. Even if they are "christian" in nature.

Jesus made it painstakingly clear that He was a choice that people had to make by making a thoughtful decision. He actually went against "blind faith" and made it direct: Foor those that have eyes let them see!!! For those with ears let them hear!!!

There's nothing about intellectual blindness in following Jesus. It is exactly the opposite.

NOW, that being said . . . is engaging in homosexuality a disqualifying behavior for being a Christian?

I won't say yes, or no. If a person desires to engage in homosexuality and claims to be a Christian, I, as a brother in Christ, appeal to Jesus on judgment day ONLY TO MY sins and behaviors. Like Mormonism, I have the right to say that certain beliefs, statements and actions I WILL NOT SUPPORT, and even reject outright, but no one is judging anyone as a Christian or towards a Christian. A person stands judged by their own actions.

I would never support homosexual behavior, I would never support "gay rights" but if a person that desires homosexual behavior wants to claim they are a Christian, that is on their own soul and not mine. BUT, there are actions and behaviors from anyone that I, as a Christian, can reject.

Hate the sin, not the sinner????

That is pure Christian truth.

 

[.Iona.]

That said if you have taken the time to read my Op you will have noted that I am not of the position that Homosexuals should be shunned by the church, but also it should be known that an all encompassing acceptance is not the scripturally back belief I am representing either.

I never said it was you who did.

 

[cubinity]

Homosexual behavior is a sin.

Here's some criteria per Jesus:

15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.

16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

- Matthew 18: 15-17

The contextual issue in this passage is, "If your brother sins against you..."

"Against you" is the significant part here. The rule of forgiveness in Jesus' day is that only the offended can forgive the offender. That is why when Jesus forgives the guy on the mat who sinned against God, they throw a fit about how only God had the right to forgive him.

This instruction is about when you are the victim.

Tell us, how does a society being inclusive to homosexuality directly victimize you in such a way that you now have all this authority to condemn?

The scene about throwing stones isn't about whether the men with the stones were right or wrong about the lady's sin. It was about the condition of their hearts that they thought they were justified in their condemnation. I see the same thing playing out here. It doesn't matter how right you may be about homosexuality, you still don't have the right to condemn others.

Likewise, the prayer of the two men, where one shows thanks he is not like those sinners, and the other humbly confessed and just worries about his own debt to God. Which are you representing? Which do you sound like with your "righteous" use of the Scriptures to justify your condemnation?

If being condemning and self-righteous are the only ways we have to preserve the church, then maybe the church isn't anything left worth preserving. I think it is worth preserving, so let's work together to find a more Christ-like way to preserve it.

Put down your stones and follow Him.

 

[.Iona.]

NOW, that being said . . . is engaging in homosexuality a disqualifying behavior for being a Christian?

I won't say yes, or no. If a person desires to engage in homosexuality and claims to be a Christian, I, as a brother in Christ, appeal to Jesus on judgment day ONLY TO MY sins and behaviors. Like Mormonism, I have the right to say that certain beliefs, statements and actions I WILL NOT SUPPORT, and even reject outright, but no one is judging anyone as a Christian or towards a Christian. A person stands judged by their own actions.

I would never support homosexual behavior, I would never support "gay rights" but if a person that desires homosexual behavior wants to claim they are a Christian, that is on their own soul and not mine. BUT, there are actions and behaviors from anyone that I, as a Christian, can reject.

Hate the sin, not the sinner????

That is pure Christian truth.

Everyone can reject a behaviour or a belief. I for one reject your belief. But, like you said 'a person stands judges by their own actions' and they will be judged by God alone. There is no qualification for being a Christian, other than being a sinner. Perhaps, not all people who call themselves a Christian will get into Heaven, but that is up to God.

 

[Phinehas2]

Religious Girl,

I for one reject your belief.

But it is God’s word you are rejecting, you haven’t even shown where the concept of ‘gay’ is in God’s word.

I don't need to post bible quote after bible quote, I know what I believe.

You do if you want to show God’s word, but all you are doing is showing your ideas.

 

[.Iona.]

Religious Girl,
But it is God’s word you are rejecting, you haven’t even shown where the concept of ‘gay’ is in God’s word.

You do if you want to show God’s word, but all you are doing is showing your ideas. [/I]

It is your interpretation of God's word.

 

[drich0150]

Set aside the religious political appointees of King Herod (The Pharisees) and think about how many people walked away from Jesus and His teachings? So much for the lovey-dovey Jesus.He stood His ground and never weakened in the face of social culture.

You need to try and find a middle ground or at least try and understand what it I am saying rather than wanting to simply classify what I am saying as lovey dovey so as to dismiss it.

Christ in All of His standards was above all, productive in His efforts. (You do not seem to be.) In part because He Commanded the authority of God in a way that you nor any one else can. Aside from that, the reason He was so successful, was when He spoke, was because no matter who He spoke to, He spoke to them on a level that was easy for them to understand, and made sense.

If people are arguing with you what you say, it doesn't make sense. Like look at your efforts here. What I have pointed out although scripturally back doesn't make sense to you because you believe what you are doing is right despite what I or the bible says to the contrary. I believe it is because you have dismissed what I have said as an argument in favor of homosexuality in the church. Simply because it goes against your method of presenting God's truth. The Truth I speak has not Changed, only the way it is presented.

In response I have not simply kept my message the same. i have tried many different ways to get past your personal ideas of righteousness to appeal to the part of you that holds biblical truth more precious over the traditional ways you do things. Once I feel I have no other ways to rephrase I have to leave you with your pride.

Christian means Christ like. There is no other Christ.

Which was the point I was setting up. I wanted her to see that for herself.

Jesus made it painstakingly clear that He was a choice that people had to make by making a thoughtful decision. He actually went against "blind faith" and made it direct: Foor those that have eyes let them see!!! For those with ears let them hear!!!

This is a double edged sword. I have shown you a side of Christ that you do not see or hear. does that mean you do not choose Christ? Be careful how you judge, because that will be the measure used to judge you.

NOW, that being said . . . is engaging in homosexuality a disqualifying behavior for being a Christian?

I won't say yes, or no. If a person desires to engage in homosexuality and claims to be a Christian, I, as a brother in Christ, appeal to Jesus on judgment day ONLY TO MY sins and behaviors. Like Mormonism, I have the right to say that certain beliefs, statements and actions I WILL NOT SUPPORT, and even reject outright, but no one is judging anyone as a Christian or towards a Christian. A person stands judged by their own actions.

I would never support homosexual behavior, I would never support "gay rights" but if a person that desires homosexual behavior wants to claim they are a Christian, that is on their own soul and not mine. BUT, there are actions and behaviors from anyone that I, as a Christian, can reject.

Hate the sin, not the sinner????

That is pure Christian truth.

Your last statement seems to presuppose that I am against calling Homosexuality a sin. THIS IS NOT THE CASE. What you seem to have so much difficulty understanding is, that I am not for Homosexual values in the church. I Am Saying: That It Is Not Wrong To Identify Sin In The Church.

What I Am Saying is: The Way You Go About Identifying Sin in The Church Is Counter Productive.
The church in some instances has not only turned from the people making your arguments they have also turned from Christ because of these arguments. So why argue them is there is a better way?

 

[Phinehas2]

Religious Girl,

It is your interpretation of God's word.

Then according to my interpretation of what you have said you agree that homosexuality is wrong.
Well done, glad you agree.

 

[drich0150]

I never said it was you who did.

From post 98:

The church should be accepting of everyone. It is very unchristian like to say gay people cannot be welcomed into a church unless they change who they are.

How does this statement ring true, if it does not indeed speak to the permisiablity of sin in the church?

 

[Avniel]

No it's not interpretation it's what it says. If the Bible says thou shall not kill and that's not a scripture I can interpret. Homosexuality is a sin no matter how you interpret. There is no scriptures that supported homosexual marriage, " findth a wife findth a good thing" man and man woman and woman cant be husband and wife. A man and a woman biologically are different, a man physically fits into a woman perfectly seed and egg make a person..,Not seed and seed or egg and egg.

God has a order any chaos he didn't create. I beg other's to stop arguing this concept. Dont cast your pearls to the swine if they are blind to their sin tell them out of love and let them be. Jesus is the only one to change someone's heart not our ability to debate. This is their agenda so lets just stop posting in these gay agenda themed tgreads!

 

[.Iona.]

From post 98:


How does this statement ring true, if it does not indeed speak to the permisiablity of sin in the church?

That still doesn't say that you were the one being unchristian, does it?

I was speaking in general terms.