Homosexuality

[Octorock]

It is he who is in the world (God's enemy) who has made himself the enemy of the human by deceiving it in the garden of eden. The humans are not enemies to God, they spend their whole life trying to find that relationship that was broken when they inherited their fallen nature. "Truth" vs "lie" is God vs His enemy, and it is us who decides which one we listen too. The enemy dangles a carrot in our face while God grants our free will. One day we may ask God to tell us the truth and all the lies we believe go "snap" and fall into place. The enemy has no answers that will help us with salvation, Jesus has all those answers and even more.

There is no way you can find God through investigating the universe. When you find God and realise His magnificence, all the knowledge in the universe suddenly appears to be less significant.

So, man is not an enemy of God but, if someone uses their own critical thought to understand something, then they are listening to "the enemy?"

 

[Octorock]

1 Corinthians 6:9 (New International Version)

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders


1 Thessalonians 4 (New International Version)

Living to Please God

1Finally, brothers, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more. 2For you know what instructions we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.
3It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4that each of you should learn to control his own body[a] in a way that is holy and honorable, 5not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; 6and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. 7For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.

Of course, to be saved doesn't necessarilly mean "enter the kingdom of God". There's very little about heaven that has been disclosed to the human, and for good reason I suspect.

Those are words of Paul. I asked you specifically for where Jesus has clearly stated that homosexuals cannot enter Heaven.

 

[oi_antz]

You're going to have to explain this more clearly because I'm not fully understanding what it is you are trying to say. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by looking for answers "in the world." I didn't look at a tree or a building or observe commercial trends to come to this conclusion regarding that verse. I used critical thought - a gift from God (Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD) - to put the verse into a context that makes sense in the real world (a world that, like it or not, you and I both live in.)

John 15
The World Hates the Disciples

18"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me. 22If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin. 23He who hates me hates my Father as well. 24If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: 'They hated me without reason.

It is clear that there is a lot of hatred toward Christ's disciples because they claim to speak the truth, a certain truth which people don't like to hear, the truth as we understand it from God's POV (ie the ones who argue FOR the Bible vs the world full of those who argue AGAINST it), and those who belong to the world (those against God's word) love the world so much they cannot give it up until a change takes place in their heart where they are ready to accept the truth from God's POV.

 

[Jase]

1 Corinthians 6:9 (New International Version)

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders


1 Thessalonians 4 (New International Version)

Living to Please God

1Finally, brothers, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more. 2For you know what instructions we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.
3It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4that each of you should learn to control his own body[a] in a way that is holy and honorable, 5not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; 6and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. 7For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.

Of course, to be saved doesn't necessarilly mean "enter the kingdom of God". There's very little about heaven that has been disclosed to the human, and for good reason I suspect.

You are aware this never referred to homosexuality in the original language right? In fact until relatively recently, the word translated to homosexual offender originally referred to masturbation.

I'm still waiting for you to show me where in Hebrew or Greek, the Bible says Homosexuality is a sin.

 

[oi_antz]

Those are words of Paul. I asked you specifically for where Jesus has clearly stated that homosexuals cannot enter Heaven.

I can't find any such teaching from Jesus, this is why I have consistently argued you need to read the Bible yourself and hear what Jesus says when you read it. Jesus' spirit is alive today and is omnipresent, every time you read the Bible you hear some truth and you hear some lie. Ever seen a cartoon with angels and devils in your mind? That's what happens. Sometimes the lie seems stronger than the truth, that means you need to exercise your faith - it is a test of faith to see if you choose Jesus or the enemy.

 

[Jase]

I can't find any such teaching from Jesus,

That's all you needed to say. Amazing that for an issue which has become the most important issue in all of Christianity, that Christ never said a word about it. Seems like Christ's followers are more concerned with gays than Christ himself.

 

[oi_antz]

You are aware this never referred to homosexuality in the original language right? In fact until relatively recently, the word translated to homosexual offender originally referred to masturbation.

I'm still waiting for you to show me where in Hebrew or Greek, the Bible says Homosexuality is a sin.

I don't have the skills to do that, why do you suppose all the translations state homosexuality? What are your thoughts on my suggestion that it is rooted in idolatry? This is how I came to see it being a serious inhibitor to one's relationship with Jesus, by focussing our attention to carnal idols of God (human) rather than the true image of God (spirit).

 

[oi_antz]

That's all you needed to say. Amazing that for an issue which has become the most important issue in all of Christianity, that Christ never said a word about it. Seems like Christ's followers are more concerned with gays than Christ himself.

Actually, you will find that Christians believe the entire Bible is God's word and testimony to His son, inspired and compiled by those sharing His spirit. You don't share His spirit so your opinion has no bearing on matters of truth vs lie. Christianity states that everything in the Bible is 100% true and inspired by God (whose son is Jesus), and we know that Jesus is a our mediator to God.

I think you're arguing that my opinion means gay's can't become Christian, which is incorrect. Jesus forgives all sins. The point of difference is you seem to think a Christian should be able to ignore a part of the Bible. This means the convert has not given their WHOLE heart to Jesus, and therefore has never accepted Jesus in their life. For those who have done so, they will feel strong conviction from the passages in dispute (you people don't have that sense of conviction, only a sense of disgust).

 

[onemorequestion]

You are aware this never referred to homosexuality in the original language right? In fact until relatively recently, the word translated to homosexual offender originally referred to masturbation.

I'm still waiting for you to show me where in Hebrew or Greek, the Bible says Homosexuality is a sin.

The merry-go-round of showing the ideologue the evidence they demand and having them reply:

"Where's your proof?"

You show them the prrof and they retort:

"Where's your evidence?"

Homosexuality IS immorality. Immorality is a sin.

Buuuuuuttttttttttt . . . not if homosexuality is reclassified as not a sin.

Ahhh the agenda shown.

 

[onemorequestion]

Actually, you will find that Christians believe the entire Bible is God's word and testimony to His son, inspired and compiled by those sharing His spirit. You don't share His spirit so your opinion has no bearing on matters of truth vs lie. Christianity states that everything in the Bible is 100% true and inspired by God (whose son is Jesus), and we know that Jesus is a our mediator to God.

I think you're arguing that my opinion means gay's can't become Christian, which is incorrect. Jesus forgives all sins. The point of difference is you seem to think a Christian should be able to ignore a part of the Bible. This means the convert has not given their WHOLE heart to Jesus, and therefore has never accepted Jesus in their life. For those who have done so, they will feel strong conviction from the passages in dispute (you people don't have that sense of conviction, only a sense of disgust).

Go back through these threads and see how easy it is to counter the claims of the pro gay ideologue.

It is effortless if you stay on the path Christ has paved.

 

[oi_antz]

The merry-go-round of showing the ideologue the evidence they demand and having them reply:

"Where's your proof?"

You show them the prrof and they retort:

"Where's your evidence?"

Homosexuality IS immorality. Immorality is a sin.

Buuuuuuttttttttttt . . . not if homosexuality is reclassified as not a sin.

Ahhh the agenda shown.

My argument is more that homosexuality is idolatry - we put a human up for worship in the throne of our heart and mind where Jesus ought dwell.

 

[onemorequestion]

@ Octorock: No, it's not just semantics! To be anti-gay is to be against people. It's not the people the word is against. To be anti-abortion is to be against behavior. (Specifically killing innocent children)

The focus here is on behavior.

Total truth. Of course, total reality.

 

[onemorequestion]

My argument is more that homosexuality is idolatry - we put a human up for worship in the throne of our heart and mind where Jesus ought dwell.

My position is based entirely that what is called gay is pure idolatry of behaviors of individuals. As can be seen through the fever pitch of the pro-gay ideologue, your point on idolatry is sound indeed.

 

[KCKID]

It's just a belief, however, no matter how firmly it might be entrenched. Not that you're doing so (yet) but please don't ever state that YOUR belief over-rides someone elses belief.

How does that work then? If someone’s belief is that God’s word is the truth and anything contrary to it is overriding as a lie, your statement would be denying another their belief unless it fell in line with your belief.

How does one's personal belief work? It works simply by stating honestly that THIS is MY belief which YOU may accept or not accept. When YOUR belief or MY belief leads to the demonizing or the dehumanizing of another human being then something is radically wrong with YOUR or MY belief! I don't (I hope) use the Bible to degrade others as you do. The way I see it is that it is quite clearly not the teaching of an all-powering, loving God who appears to require that YOU preach to others how righteous YOU are and how rotten THEY are ...basically because they don't believe as YOU believe.

MY understanding of the scriptures that YOU use to condemn others is quite different to YOUR understanding of said scriptures. This therefore leads to MY belief that people such as yourself are using said scriptures in error of the truth with which TO CONDEMN OTHERS simply (I believe) because you personally don't approve of homosexuality. No one takes the issue of homosexuality as seriously as you do merely because of words from the Bible. I believe that you are driven by other motives that have nothing to do with scripture. Perhaps this topic gives you the opportunity to 'shine' among others of like belief, perhaps you (who believes that God will send you to eternal torment if you don't adhere to 'His will') are trying to impress God with your loyalty ...I don't know. All I do know is that YOUR belief leads to the demonizing and the dehumanizing ot other human beings whose 'only sin' is that they are 1. homosexuals, or/and 2. don't believe as you do. There are 'mind games' going on here that could be very destructive.

"I" don't believe that the Bible condemns homosexuality within the confines of a monogamous relationship any more than it condemns heterosexuality within the confines of a monogamous relationship. For "me" it's just as plain and simple.

we understand your view but we are challenging it as being baseless and contrary to the Christian view by the scriptures and explanation provided. To us your view is disbelief, it has no scriptural support and is contrary to what the scripture says.

I'm not interested in your 'US and THEM' type of theology, Phinehas. It can only ever lead to unhealthy division between those whose belief is considered righteous (YOUR belief) and the beliefs of the unrighteous (those whose beliefs don't tally with YOURS).

 

[Lively Stone]

How can someone's natural state of being, be a sin? You cannot sin just by being attracted to the same-sex.

Yes you can. The attraction is unnatural and allowing your mind to develop thoughts that are generated by an unnatural lust is a sin. The Lord wants His children to take errant thoughts captive, and train one's mind to think only of things that are admirable and worthy. A homosexual has a problem not only with his desires, but with controlling his mind also. It's a double whammy.

The Lord Jesus Christ is a lot bigger than that problem.

 

[oi_antz]

My position is based entirely that what is called gay is pure idolatry of behaviors of individuals. As can be seen through the fever pitch of the pro-gay ideologue, your point on idolatry is sound indeed.

All this fuss about light bouncing in our eyes on specific angles and the way our body responds in a situation, two bulls in one pen will make war lol.

 

[Lively Stone]

[/b]Yes, actually you do. If you didn't, there wouldn't be an entire industry to Biblical translation and exegesis. Hebrew and Greek are nothing like English. There are a great many nuances that do not switch well between languages.

No, we don't have to know all that stuff. All we need to do is read the word and believe it. We need to trust God that He has preserved His message to us intact, and be thankful for those who have toiled so hard for Him in the work of putting the written word together for us.

A child doesn't need salvation. They have yet to reach the age of accountability.

Children need Jesus and children come to know Him as Lord and Saviour every day. They need a Saviour too, to save them.

I do, however, find it odd that you seem so adamant about ensuring that we forego the use of our brains. Why is that? Reason and intelligence are the only things that set us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom. Shouldn't we embrace those qualities, and use them?

God has given us a marvelous gift of intellect. We aren't to worship it, however, nor allow it to get in the way of discerned truth from the word of God.

The natural world is God's creation, is it not? If evidence from the natural world disagrees with our understanding of scripture, it is our understanding of scripture that is wrong, because the natural world can't lie. St. Augustine held this position.

Yes, if there is ANYTHING that appears to disagree with our understanding of the word of God, then we need to make an adjustment. The word is never wrong.God is the creator of that natural world, and if it appears to lie, then it is the one with the observational skills that is at odds.

Once again, implying I don't know Christ, because I don't worship the Bible.

If you don't believe the Bible, then you are at odds with God. None of it is optional to believe.

 

[Lively Stone]

That's all you needed to say. Amazing that for an issue which has become the most important issue in all of Christianity, that Christ never said a word about it. Seems like Christ's followers are more concerned with gays than Christ himself.

Paul spoke for Jesus Christ. It has become holy, anointed scripture. Therefore Jesus says what Paul says.

 

[Octorock]

Here's the shocker: those of us that do no condemn homosexuality chose not to do so because we believe that's actually what the Bible teaches. Those that are against homosexuality want to keep insisting that we are trying to go against the Bible, but that's an false characterization. We believe that we truly are following the teachings of Jesus as written in the scriptures.

You're not going to convince us to see things your way when you make false characterizations such as that.

 

[Lively Stone]

Here's the shocker: those of us that do no condemn homosexuality chose not to do so because we believe that's actually what the Bible teaches. Those that are against homosexuality want to keep insisting that we are trying to go against the Bible, but that's an false characterization. We believe that we truly are following the teachings of Jesus as written in the scriptures.

You're not going to convince us to see things your way when you make false characterizations such as that.

You have to prove that the Bible approves of men sleeping with men and women sleeping with women.

Go ahead...and don't forget to use all the portions of scripture that speak of such behaviour.