Homosexuality

[Lively Stone]

I've already shown you that the original language of the Bible does not condemn modern day homosexuality. You seem unwilling to even admit you may be wrong.

And you most certainly can argue with the Bible. The Bible is not God, nor is it flawless.

We don't need to know what the original language says. A child can understand the truth of the world of God. It is written so that even a child or someone with a low IQ can gain salvation by meeting Jesus portrayed within the pages. A child can discern what God says about sin without consulting a scholar or a commentary. It is only those who want to intellectualize and rationalize what they think they have a right to do that will come up with all sorts of mental and spiritual gymnastics to wriggle out of God's demands for living righteously.


We who know Christ do not argue with the word of God because we KNOW it is truth---every word. It is God-breathed and He speaks through it to our hearts.

Hebrews 4:12-13
12 For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes, and he is the one to whom we are accountable.

 

[Octorock]

That is very convenient to believe that you can follow whatever part of the bible makes sense to you.

It seems like it would be even more convenient to simply take the words of scripture at face value without trying to understand them in any context.

Here we are seeing that human opinion is being presented as an argument against God's word, in context of this topic, the Christians are arguing that God states His will several times and it has been quoted several times.

How would it not be considered human opinion to insist that Hebrew and Greek words whose meanings translate to "temple prostitution" and "pedastry" are really referring to homosexuality?

 

[oi_antz]

So if someone tells me they are a homosexual(which is a sin) and they are not then they are telling me a lie. If someone says they are a homosexual but they dont act on it, they still are sinning..........correct.

I mean if I am married and I lust after a woman that's adultery weather I act on it or not. So then if someone comes to me and says "hey I lust after so and so" and they are married am I judging them when I say.......hey thats adultery.........when they say no its not am I then judging them when I pull out the scripture and show them where it says that..........And are the Christians if they reject the scripture and say "God made me a man its in my genes my daddy looked at women my granddaddy did too I can look at women all I want"? I dont think it's possible to love both sin and God.

I don't think looking at men and women alone is sin, I like to look at all the pretty people out there who are running around being happy and looking good, but if lust drives us crazy and we can't get our mind back to worship The Lord, then you need to break the stronghold of sin by training your mind to rise above the world and glorify God only. I think we all get lusty moods from time to time, it's a chemical bodily function. The point is that when you're born into Jesus' family you are told to overcome the body with self-control in the power of God, and you will always choose to worship Him over anything of the world. So in your situation you would be aware of a few people who drag your mind into fantasy, I think by consciously indulging in those thoughts, the sin of lust and adultery being committed, you'd become aware of it quickly and would have to turn your mind toward worshiping God. Praise Jesus, He has conquered all sin and surrendered His own life so He could forgive us our sin. Beware not to dwell in sin, you'll find that even after half an hour thinking "God doesn't want me thinking this" that your heart will already have begun hardening toward God. Keep thinking instead "How awesome you are Lord, there is beauty in everything you have given us". Keeping focussed on God's majesty is the only way to nurture our relationship with Him that we never feel we have fallen from His grace.

 

[Jase]

So if someone tells me they are a homosexual(which is a sin) and they are not then they are telling me a lie. If someone says they are a homosexual but they dont act on it, they still are sinning..........correct.

How can someone's natural state of being, be a sin? You cannot sin just by being attracted to the same-sex.

 

[Jase]

From a Christian POV Jase, we certainly don't argue with the Bible, for that would be arguing with God, who IS holy and who IS entitled to tell us the ways of righteousness (in His opinion).

The Bible is not God, nor is there any evidence that he ever had any involvement with it. You can't quote the Bible to prove the Bible - that's circular reasoning. So no, I'm not arguing with God, I'm arguing with people who claim the Bible is God, and their interpretations of it are infallible.

 

[Jase]

We don't need to know what the original language says.

Yes, actually you do. If you didn't, there wouldn't be an entire industry to Biblical translation and exegesis. Hebrew and Greek are nothing like English. There are a great many nuances that do not switch well between languages.

A child can understand the truth of the world of God. It is written so that even a child or someone with a low IQ can gain salvation by meeting Jesus portrayed within the pages. A child can discern what God says about sin without consulting a scholar or a commentary. It is only those who want to intellectualize and rationalize what they think they have a right to do that will come up with all sorts of mental and spiritual gymnastics to wriggle out of God's demands for living righteously.

A child doesn't need salvation. They have yet to reach the age of accountability.

I do, however, find it odd that you seem so adamant about ensuring that we forego the use of our brains. Why is that? Reason and intelligence are the only things that set us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom. Shouldn't we embrace those qualities, and use them?

The natural world is God's creation, is it not? If evidence from the natural world disagrees with our understanding of scripture, it is our understanding of scripture that is wrong, because the natural world can't lie. St. Augustine held this position.

We who know Christ do not argue with the word of God because we KNOW it is truth---every word. It is God-breathed and He speaks through it to our hearts.

Once again, implying I don't know Christ, because I don't worship the Bible.

 

[oi_antz]

The Bible is not God, nor is there any evidence that he ever had any involvement with it. You can't quote the Bible to prove the Bible - that's circular reasoning. So no, I'm not arguing with God, I'm arguing with people who claim the Bible is God, and their interpretations of it are infallible.

That has no difference to what I said: You are arguing against God's will by making up your own God. It's a problem between you and God, it should not be made a problem for others who are seeking God. If you're arguing against The God of The Holy Bible then you'll never get to know what it is like to hear His will revealed to you as Christians do. Each time you decide to reject God, you push Him further away. I hope you can overcome this one day, the peace of mind knowing you have found God for real will be such a relief to you as it was to me - I was sighing heavily for three days and people noticed!

 

[Jase]

That has no difference to what I said: You are arguing against God's will by making up your own God. It's a problem between you and God, it should not be made a problem for others who are seeking God. If you're arguing against The God of The Holy Bible then you'll never get to know what it is like to hear His will revealed to you as Christians do. Each time you decide to reject God, you push Him further away. I hope you can overcome this one day, the peace of mind knowing you have found God for real will be such a relief to you as it was to me - I was sighing heavily for three days and people noticed!

God's will does not = the will of the conservative members of Christian Forums, which is what you're implying here. I am disagreeing with you, not God, not God's will - you. You are not God, nor do you speak for him.

 

[oi_antz]

[/B]
The natural world is God's creation, is it not? If evidence from the natural world disagrees with our understanding of scripture, it is our understanding of scripture that is wrong, because the natural world can't lie. St. Augustine held this position.


Once again, implying I don't know Christ, because I don't worship the Bible.

We are taught the the enemy is in the world and the enemy is the father of lies. From a Christian POV there is no way the world can provide truth even if it is being honest, since all the knowledge in the world transpires from fallen humans who are predisposed to believe the enemy, even the enemy has no idea what the truth is from God's point of view, they have not received the gift of The Holy Spirit so The Bible appears to be confusing nonsense to them. The heart of someone in the world is hardened against God and due to greed, they are not prepared to sacrifice the things of earth to gain the treasures of heaven.

 

[Octorock]

We are taught the the enemy is in the world and the enemy is the father of lies. From a Christian POV there is no way the world can provide truth even if it is being honest, since all the knowledge in the world transpires from fallen humans who are predisposed to believe the enemy, even the enemy has no idea what the truth is from God's point of view, they have not received the gift of The Holy Spirit so The Bible appears to be confusing nonsense to them. The heart of someone in the world is hardened against God and due to greed, they are not prepared to sacrifice the things of earth to gain the treasures of heaven.

So if you observe something that's a part of the world, you have no reason to belive that it's true? (For example, is it impossible to know that the sky is blue simply by looking at it?)

 

[Jase]

We are taught the the enemy is in the world and the enemy is the father of lies. From a Christian POV there is no way the world can provide truth even if it is being honest, since all the knowledge in the world transpires from fallen humans who are predisposed to believe the enemy, even the enemy has no idea what the truth is from God's point of view, they have not received the gift of The Holy Spirit so The Bible appears to be confusing nonsense to them. The heart of someone in the world is hardened against God and due to greed, they are not prepared to sacrifice the things of earth to gain the treasures of heaven.

I have absolutely no idea what you're saying here. The natural world does not lie. It can most certainly provide truth, as it has done since the dawn of time through intellectual pursuit. If nature couldn't provide truth, science wouldn't be so successful. Even the Bible claims that God's creation points to him. If you are claiming the natural world is a lie, that means the Bible is lying.

 

[Avniel]

I don't think looking at men and women alone is sin, I like to look at all the pretty people out there who are running around being happy and looking good, but if lust drives us crazy and we can't get our mind back to worship The Lord, then you need to break the stronghold of sin by training your mind to rise above the world and glorify God only. I think we all get lusty moods from time to time, it's a chemical bodily function. The point is that when you're born into Jesus' family you are told to overcome the body with self-control in the power of God, and you will always choose to worship Him over anything of the world. So in your situation you would be aware of a few people who drag your mind into fantasy, I think by consciously indulging in those thoughts, the sin of lust and adultery being committed, you'd become aware of it quickly and would have to turn your mind toward worshiping God. Praise Jesus, He has conquered all sin and surrendered His own life so He could forgive us our sin. Beware not to dwell in sin, you'll find that even after half an hour thinking "God doesn't want me thinking this" that your heart will already have begun hardening toward God. Keep thinking instead "How awesome you are Lord, there is beauty in everything you have given us". Keeping focussed on God's majesty is the only way to nurture our relationship with Him that we never feel we have fallen from His grace.

I think if you lust after a woman you commit adultery. Even though it is natural chemical cognitive occurrence it is still a sin. Thats why I feel that even if homosexuals are born gay(which I think is pure nonsense and self justification for sexual perversion) it is still a sin. If a homosexual becomes saved he is no longer a homosexual but someone that have struggles similar to us all. If an luster becomes saved he no longer is a luster just someone that struggles with lust. However even someone struggling with lust once they lust and repent and ask God with their heart to forgive them and strengthen because they know lust is wrong they will be strengthened...And it may not be the last time they lust but with prayer, and study I believe it is possible. However doing wrong because you know you are going to be forgiven isn't right

 

[Octorock]

I don't interpet Jesus' words regarding lust to mean lust in general, but more specifically lust with intent--that is, given the opportunity, you really would cheat with another man's wife, but you just haven't done so up to that point. That, to me, just makes so much more realistic sense than believing that Jesus was condemning biological sexual attraction.

Of course, I will probably be accused of twisting the words of scriputre to justify my own sinful opinions, but I feel that's far from the truth. If something doesn't make sense the first time I read it, then perhaps I read it wrong.

 

[oi_antz]

God's will does not = the will of the conservative members of Christian Forums, which is what you're implying here. I am disagreeing with you, not God, not God's will - you. You are not God, nor do you speak for him.

I speak for myself and my honest representation of Jesus Christ's spirit. The Bible clearly states that there is criteria to enter the kingdom of God (which perhaps you have no interest in), that homosexual's (as well as any other sin) are not sufficiently holy to enter the kingdom of God. Since Christianity teaches that Jesus is the king in this place, it is Jesus who calls the shots.

I have no doubts that when someone is given a chance to comprehend Jesus, He will be everything to them and they will turn from their sinful ways - this is a miracle of conversion. I think when Jesus returns and we see His glory there'll not be even one human who will not repent and unite with Him. However, this is getting off topic.

Can Christians be homosexual: that is a decision we are entitled to make and no person has the right to judge another's salvation, but we are meant to be supportive of each other as we deal with the affliction of sin in our lives and certainly this matter does matter to all of us, some more than others it seems.

 

[oi_antz]

So if you observe something that's a part of the world, you have no reason to belive that it's true? (For example, is it impossible to know that the sky is blue simply by looking at it?)

Regarding issues of God, Christ, Jesus, the kingdom of heaven, ownership of the universe and sin, there are no "right answer" for you in the world, you must get these answers from God's word or else you're just choosing to believe a lie that makes you feel better about your question.

 

[Octorock]

I speak for myself and my honest representation of Jesus Christ's spirit. The Bible clearly states that there is criteria to enter the kingdom of God (which perhaps you have no interest in), that homosexual's (as well as any other sin) are not sufficiently holy to enter the kingdom of God. Since Christianity teaches that Jesus is the king in this place, it is Jesus who calls the shots.

You should probably back up this claim by siting verses where Jesus has clearly stated that homosexuals are not sufficiently holy to enter the Kingdom of God.

 

[Jase]

You should probably back up this claim by siting verses where Jesus has clearly stated that homosexuals are not sufficiently holy to enter the Kingdom of God.

I seem to recall only 1 criteria listed, as cited in John 3:16 - no mention of homosexuality being exclusionary there. Why must people add so many conditions to being saved?

 

[oi_antz]

I have absolutely no idea what you're saying here. The natural world does not lie. It can most certainly provide truth, as it has done since the dawn of time through intellectual pursuit. If nature couldn't provide truth, science wouldn't be so successful. Even the Bible claims that God's creation points to him. If you are claiming the natural world is a lie, that means the Bible is lying.

It is he who is in the world (God's enemy) who has made himself the enemy of the human by deceiving it in the garden of eden. The humans are not enemies to God, they spend their whole life trying to find that relationship that was broken when they inherited their fallen nature. "Truth" vs "lie" is God vs His enemy, and it is us who decides which one we listen too. The enemy dangles a carrot in our face while God grants our free will. One day we may ask God to tell us the truth and all the lies we believe go "snap" and fall into place. The enemy has no answers that will help us with salvation, Jesus has all those answers and even more.

There is no way you can find God through investigating the universe. When you find God and realise His magnificence, all the knowledge in the universe suddenly appears to be less significant.

 

[Octorock]

Regarding issues of God, Christ, Jesus, the kingdom of heaven, ownership of the universe and sin, there are no "right answer" for you in the world, you must get these answers from God's word or else you're just choosing to believe a lie that makes you feel better about your question.

You're going to have to explain this more clearly because I'm not fully understanding what it is you are trying to say. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by looking for answers "in the world." I didn't look at a tree or a building or observe commercial trends to come to this conclusion regarding that verse. I used critical thought - a gift from God (Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD) - to put the verse into a context that makes sense in the real world (a world that, like it or not, you and I both live in.)

 

[oi_antz]

You should probably back up this claim by siting verses where Jesus has clearly stated that homosexuals are not sufficiently holy to enter the Kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9 (New International Version)

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders


1 Thessalonians 4 (New International Version)

Living to Please God

1Finally, brothers, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more. 2For you know what instructions we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.
3It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4that each of you should learn to control his own body[a] in a way that is holy and honorable, 5not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; 6and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. 7For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.

Of course, to be saved doesn't necessarilly mean "enter the kingdom of God". There's very little about heaven that has been disclosed to the human, and for good reason I suspect.