Homosexuality

[Dionysiou]

Because Leviticus (among other things) also requires burnt offerings, prohibits hair cuts, and requires a visit to a priest when a skin rash is discovered. Even the most orthodox Jew isn't out there doing animal sacrifices today. One of Jesus' missions on Earth was to teach the Jews (and us) a new set of priorities: Love God and Love your neighbor first and foremost, and the rest will follow.

One of the reasons why I am not 100% convinced about homosexuality is this: Matthew 7:16 says, "By their fruit you will recognize them". Paul's letter to the Galatians tells us, "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

The homosexuals that I know tend to show more of those aspects than some of the angry, impatient, judgmental, and generally unkind Christians that I know.

goodness, well is it good to be homosexual? faithfulness, is it faithful to Gods plan to be homosexual? love, does intimate love really know no creed? I dont see how homosexuals are keeping it any better. The real factor here is wether or not these people are going against better judgement and following with societies belief. Are these people Spirit filled? Would the Holy Spirit agree to a homosexual relationship. After all your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Finally, would you be willing to stand before God and say, "Thankyou lord for making me a husband, i am so grateful that we were able to be married in your church and adopt and start a family together."

 

[Avniel]

It is not only expected--it is what happens.

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

If you are still the same old you and with the same old sins your stagnate. Faith without works is dead

 

[oi_antz]

And becoming heterosexuals ...?

IMO yes, sexuality is a sense of preference, a taste we develop. So while we are dwelling on thoughts of "I like guys, don't like girls as much" then we are training ourselves in that habit. We have to one day get a grip on the body and put the soul first. I noticed since my conversion, I am seeing girls a lot differently and even looking at the girls first. It is a training of the mind, listening to Jesus rather than the angels I was speaking to before the conversion. It appears from all I've learned that God is a real family person sharing love that is eternal, it is not a love the world can give.

 

[Phinehas2]

Avneil,

So that means we agree that if you dont repent then you cant be Christian?

Yes.
Jesus says those who believe what He says seek to do it. In fact He says seek the Kingdom but He says those who love Him obey what He commands. Repentance is part of that.
If His command is to obey all He taught and to make disciples and teach them to obey all He taught, then those who do not seek to do so are arguably not His disciples. But it is reasonable to see that He requires His disciples to seek to obey all He taught.
Now when we see liberal ideas about what ‘we’ know today through our scientific knowledge and culture that are supposed to override what Jesus taught, it is also reasonable to argue that isn’t discipleship. Nor is it interpretation, interpretation requires something being interpreted, if one is dismissing text as not relevant, one is not interpreting it.
This is a liberal tactic is when such an argument is exposed, to make it a personal attack so as to allow such non-Biblical or contra-Biblical arguments be accepted as Christian.
We all fall short, the question of faith is not about being perfect and never sinning, but about seeking not to knowing what sin is and receiving through faith the forgiveness Christ has made available. If we don’t have this attitude then it lends itself to saying we can sin because we can’t help it.

Dont mean to be patronising, as a fellow believer I am sure you would mostly agree with what I am saying.

 

[Phinehas2]

Kiwimac,

I would like to throw a couple of questions in the way of the posters who adhere to the traditional/conservative side when it comes to the issue of homosexuality. And this means posters like phinehas2, Avniel, onemorequestion and the rest.

There is only one side that is Christian, Christian beliefs must be based on who Christ is and what Christ taught.

1) Do you believe people choose their sexual orientation? (note the word which is the sole object of my focus, nothing to do with homosexual BEHAVIOR, which the Bible clearly condemns as wrong.)

There is no such thing as sexual orientation. Anatomy shows man and woman are designed for sexual interaction. Nor is there any proof to innate sexual desires and attraction than there is temptation to theft, lying, or any other desire that is described as sin and error in the Bible. Nor is there any consensus of scientific proof, and sadly many studies are based on what gay and lesbian people do and think, when there has been no proof there are actually gay and lesbian people… so much recent study is baseless.

2) for people with same sex attraction, do you think God readily changes their orientations if the person prays and asks for change?

Of course, testimonies show it is possible for some to no longer even have same sex desires. Do you not believe all things are possible for God either?

3) How do you propose these people live out their lives? Life-long celibacy? Heterosexual marriage? Suicide?

They are free to chose what they do, but to be a disciple of Jesus Christ they have to do what Christ defines as disciples. Certainly as disciples they would be celibate or faithful marriage. They certainly wouldn’t chose suicide as the truth sets people free and their joy is complete.

 

[Znex]

People have lived out their lives as single men and women before; look at Jesus, or Paul. They aren't the only two biblical examples either.

 

[Phinehas2]

I know people who arent even Christians who have to live their lives celibate as they have been unable to find a partner for whatever reason.

The rich man approached Jesus trying to justify himself by adhering to all the commands except one which he didnt want to compromise on. Jesus told him he needed to give it all up.

Furthermore this emotional appeal of suicide is not of God, God doesnt want anyone to perish but see all His creation fulfill the potential He created them for, and demonstrated this love through Jesus Christ. God has allowed people to be free to choose what they do, and the way they live their lives, the idea of suicide is merely trying to blackmail God to conform to peoples wishes.

 

[KCKID]

People have lived out their lives as single men and women before; look at Jesus, or Paul. They aren't the only two biblical examples either.

So, Jesus and Paul were disobedient to the command to 'be fruitful and multiply'? Seems like they were also disobedient to the one about leaving one's father and mother and becoming one flesh with their wives ...? Both of these texts are used CONSTANTLY by those who view (heterosexual) marriage as 'one's duty' to God. And, that's the reason that I brought it up.

 

[KCKID]

I know people who arent even Christians who have to live their lives celibate as they have been unable to find a partner for whatever reason.

The rich man approached Jesus trying to justify himself by adhering to all the commands except one which he didnt want to compromise on. Jesus told him he needed to give it all up.

Furthermore this emotional appeal of suicide is not of God, God doesnt want anyone to perish but see all His creation fulfill the potential He created them for, and demonstrated this love through Jesus Christ. God has allowed people to be free to choose what they do, and the way they live their lives, the idea of suicide is merely trying to blackmail God to conform to peoples wishes.

So, why don't YOU honor the freedom for others that God has allowed . . .?

 

[Phinehas2]

KCKID,

So, Jesus and Paul were disobedient to the command to 'be fruitful and multiply'?

Of course not, Even logically, the command to be fruitful and multiply was given to man and woman as a creation purpose. Jesus is the Son of God, even in the flesh He spoke the words of the Father, how could Jesus as God disobey Himself? Again with liberalism we see a fundamental question about the nature of Christianity.

And there can be no such thing as heterosexual marriage, marriage is man and woman, the attractions of the man and woman is irrelevant, a homosexual man married to a lesbian woman would still be marriage.

So, why don't YOU honor the freedom for others that God has allowed . . .?

God hasn’t allowed them freedom, it was for freedom that Christ has set us free, God has allowed people to make a choice.
As a Christian I must honour the choice people make, but the freedom is in Christ.

 

[Znex]

So, Jesus and Paul were disobedient to the command to 'be fruitful and multiply'? Seems like they were also disobedient to the one about leaving one's father and mother and becoming one flesh with their wives ...? Both of these texts are used CONSTANTLY by those who view (heterosexual) marriage as 'one's duty' to God. And, that's the reason that I brought it up.

Well that's where we bring up the big important commandments that all the other commands are based on:

'Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."' (Matt 22:34-40)

My idea is that we can use these two big commandments to identify the rest of the laws.
Paul describes his reason for celibacy in 1 Corinthians 7:
"I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs—how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord."

Another reason is shown vaguely in Isaiah 54:
'"Sing, O barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
burst into song, shout for joy,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband,"
says the LORD.'
What the prophet seems to be suggesting is that the desolate woman will receive spiritual children; namely Christians.

So, it would seem that:
*Paul is loving the Lord by devoting further attention to him and bringing forth spiritual children from his ministry
*Paul is loving his neighbour by bringing them to Christ

I would assume a similar conclusion with Jesus.

 

[addo]

So, why don't YOU honor the freedom for others that God has allowed . . .?

It is true that we were called to freedom but, as it is written, we must not use this freedom for the benefit of our sinful nature. Paul said:

"You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature..." (Galatians 5:13, NIV)
​

He also said:

"...walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please" (Galatians 5:16-17, NASB)
​

In short, God made us free from sin to be servants of righteousness instead. We are called to freedom, but we must not use it to please our (sinful) nature.

Also, how is it that we don't honor their freedom? We just tell them that what they are doing is wrong, but they still can choose that path, thus we allow their freedom: we allow their free will, they can still choose that path even though it is wrong. It's like with God: He tells you the way you chose is wrong (you are sinning), thus He presents you the truth, but He also respects your freedom and lets you go that way if you wish so, even though it may be a wrong way which leads to death, instead of life.

By the way, KCKID, I did not read carefully all the posts. Can you please give me the verse that said planting in a certain manner is an abomination again (if you already did previously)? Thank you.

 

[Avniel]

Avneil,
Yes.
Jesus says those who believe what He says seek to do it. In fact He says seek the Kingdom but He says those who love Him obey what He commands. Repentance is part of that.
If His command is to obey all He taught and to make disciples and teach them to obey all He taught, then those who do not seek to do so are arguably not His disciples. But it is reasonable to see that He requires His disciples to seek to obey all He taught.
Now when we see liberal ideas about what ‘we’ know today through our scientific knowledge and culture that are supposed to override what Jesus taught, it is also reasonable to argue that isn’t discipleship. Nor is it interpretation, interpretation requires something being interpreted, if one is dismissing text as not relevant, one is not interpreting it.
This is a liberal tactic is when such an argument is exposed, to make it a personal attack so as to allow such non-Biblical or contra-Biblical arguments be accepted as Christian.
We all fall short, the question of faith is not about being perfect and never sinning, but about seeking not to knowing what sin is and receiving through faith the forgiveness Christ has made available. If we don’t have this attitude then it lends itself to saying we can sin because we can’t help it.

Dont mean to be patronising, as a fellow believer I am sure you would mostly agree with what I am saying.

I actually agree with all of what you say. It's almost frustrating point something out in the Bible "there it is right there" and people manipulate words "its not clear" when common sense states that it is a sin.

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have
done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will
be on their own heads
Leviticus 20:13

Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
Leviticus 18:22

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of
God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10




These scriptures are clear as glass. People allow their love for their sin to over shadow their love for God. "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."


But this is not a post of judgment but one of hope come to Christ and accept him completely repent your sins and he will make anybody no matter who you are whole. Because their is power in the blood

 

[Avniel]

So, why don't YOU honor the freedom for others that God has allowed . . .?

Christians are not going around holding guns to peoples heads telling them to renounce their sins and repent. I wouldn't go up to a homosexual and hold them captive till they repent......I am honoring their freedom however to not repent sinful behavior when shown the scripture, to accept it and allow the devil to convince you that God accepts is not Christianity. You cant serve two masters

 

[Jase]

These scriptures are clear as glass. People allow their love for their sin to over shadow their love for God. "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

They are not clear as glass, because the Bible wasn't written in English, and contrary to the naivety found on this board, translators are not Saints who always ensure the utmost objectivity is met when translating. Translation is afterall, a for-profit business.

Leviticus 18:22 has a different connotation in Hebrew than it does in English. You're assuming, based on the English that the verse refers to consentual monogamous same-sex relationships, when the Hebrew is referring to forced same-sex relationships (aka rape).

 

[Avniel]

They are not clear as glass, because the Bible wasn't written in English, and contrary to the naivety found on this board, translators are not Saints who always ensure the utmost objectivity is met when translating. Translation is afterall, a for-profit business.

Leviticus 18:22 has a different connotation in Hebrew than it does in English. You're assuming, based on the English that the verse refers to consentual monogamous same-sex relationships, when the Hebrew is referring to forced same-sex relationships (aka rape).

So you believe that the KJV has errors?

 

[Peripatetic]

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have
done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will
be on their own heads
Leviticus 20:13

...

These scriptures are clear as glass.

Do you believe that all homosexuals should be put to death then?

What about adulterers? Leviticus (clearly) says that they are to be put to death as well.

 

[onemorequestion]

Do you believe that all homosexuals should be put to death then?

What about adulterers? Leviticus (clearly) says that they are to be put to death as well.

Is that canard or red herring you're employing there? No matter, each could find a place as the head on your strawman.

Christians forgive repentant brothers and sisters do they not?

They treat those that do not like pagans and those that impose unfair and burdensome taxes on people right?

The non and anti Christians? They can choose hell with no help needed, required or sanctioned.

 

[Avniel]

Do you believe that all homosexuals should be put to death then?

What about adulterers? Leviticus (clearly) says that they are to be put to death as well.

What does Jesus say? Thats what I am saying homosexuality is wrong similar to adultery, both are crimes punishable by death in the OT. However Jesus says "thou that be without sin cast the first stone" does that mean that adultery and homosexuality are not wrong no...Does that mean I am going against Jesus by saying that adultery and homosexuality is a sin no it doesn't.

But you see how the issue changes to what I believe? Its not about my thoughts and my opinions its about God's. I didn't say that, I didn't write or inspire Leviticus. If you have a problem whats written in the Bible I cant help you you're going to have to take that up with God I just quoted a scripture.

 

[onemorequestion]

They are not clear as glass, because the Bible wasn't written in English, and contrary to the naivety found on this board, translators are not Saints who always ensure the utmost objectivity is met when translating. Translation is afterall, a for-profit business.

The logic you employ contends against you. IF, it was moeny that the Bible translators were seeking, instead of God's will, they would have written the Humanist Manifesto.

Leviticus 18:22 has a different connotation in Hebrew than it does in English. You're assuming, based on the English that the verse refers to consentual monogamous same-sex relationships, when the Hebrew is referring to forced same-sex relationships (aka rape).

Your 21st century liberal theology does not jive with the several thousand years of history of Hebrew/Israelite marriage. Not a one of which connected two same gender people in one.

Now, back to your accusatory ramblings, "if" the Priest's and Scribes were in it for the money, then you would have seen written a Hebrew version of San Francisco politics.

But alas, history, that is to say, reality, shows your views (mocking accusation) do not hold up under the testing. And they have been tested for several thousands of years.

Time to admit you're mistaken and move on.