Discussion on the 28 fundamental beliefs....

[AzA]

Thanks for receiving my mistake with a smile.

No worries, and lots of love.

 

[VictorC]

Neither do Exodus 34 or Leviticus 23 which classify the seventh-day sabbath in the same category as any other convocation.

Agreed, and Exodus 34 serves as the background for 2 Corinthians 3, which describes the replacement of the ministry inscribed onto tables of stone with the ministry of "the Spirit of the living God". Scripture doesn't support a division in the law; it was received as "one law", and its disposition is as it was received.

It's interesting to me that many SDAs are willing to acknowledge that the seventh-day sabbath pointed forward to something, but are unable to view the sabbath as a shadow.

Interesting observation - I haven't seen that. My experience with SDA's has usually shown a refusal to acknowledge the sabbath leading to anything else.

 

[Laodicean]

Its not necessary that you read Kugel, however your failure to acknowledge the problems inherent with how the bible was compiled leads me to believe that you have not done any meaningful exploration into the process.... if you have, I apologize for believing you have not....

What are the problems with how the Bible was compiled that you see that I have failed to acknowledge? Sometimes others see us better than we see ourselves, so do say on. I'm open.

We can move on if you feel we've done all the damage we can do to this one....

lol. Let's not damage this any further since I sense that we are on opposite poles on this one. What's next?

 

[Laodicean]

In your statement above, you've done a nice job of summarizing my understanding of the word "perpetual," as used in Exodus 31. Thanks.

I agree that words derive their meaning from context. However, the root word itself provides significant clues. As Aza shared in his post, if we were to look at Exodus 31 and Leviticus 23, we would find that the root word is the same (even though the English translation varies).

What's interesting to me is the similarity of the context between Exodus 31 and Leviticus 23. The fact that the context is so strikingly similar and the root word is the same leads me to the conclusion that I should apply the same definition in both passages. I understand that you've reached an alternate conclusion.

BFA

Why do you think I've reached an alternate conclusion? What is the conclusion that you think I've reached, BFA?

 

[StormyOne]

What are the problems with how the Bible was compiled that you see that I have failed to acknowledge? Sometimes others see us better than we see ourselves, so do say on. I'm open.

I'll start a thread on that topic, lay out what I see as the problem and then we can discuss or at least you'll see where I am coming from...

lol. Let's not damage this any further since I sense that we are on opposite poles on this one. What's next?

here is the next one:

7. Nature of Man:
Man and woman were made in the image of God with individuality, the power and freedom to think and to do. Though created free beings, each is an indivisible unity of body, mind, and spirit, dependent upon God for life and breath and all else. When our first parents disobeyed God, they denied their dependence upon Him and fell from their high position under God. The image of God in them was marred and they became subject to death. Their descendants share this fallen nature and its consequences. They are born with weaknesses and tendencies to evil. But God in Christ reconciled the world to Himself and by His Spirit restores in penitent mortals the image of their Maker. Created for the glory of God, they are called to love Him and one another, and to care for their environment. (Gen. 1:26-28; 2:7; Ps. 8:4-8; Acts 17:24-28; Gen. 3; Ps. 51:5; Rom. 5:12-17; 2 Cor. 5:19, 20; Ps. 51:10; 1 John 4:7, 8, 11, 20; Gen. 2:15.)

I disagree with the idea that God restores the penitent.... I believe when Christ reconciled humans, it was for all of us just as Adam's fall doomed all of us, Christ simply restored all of us..... I am also pondering the choice thing... as in how much choice do we really have....

 

[Laodicean]

I'll start a thread on that topic, lay out what I see as the problem and then we can discuss or at least you'll see where I am coming from...

7. Nature of Man:
Man and woman were made in the image of God with individuality, the power and freedom to think and to do. Though created free beings, each is an indivisible unity of body, mind, and spirit, dependent upon God for life and breath and all else. When our first parents disobeyed God, they denied their dependence upon Him and fell from their high position under God. The image of God in them was marred and they became subject to death. Their descendants share this fallen nature and its consequences. They are born with weaknesses and tendencies to evil. But God in Christ reconciled the world to Himself and by His Spirit restores in penitent mortals the image of their Maker. Created for the glory of God, they are called to love Him and one another, and to care for their environment. (Gen. 1:26-28; 2:7; Ps. 8:4-8; Acts 17:24-28; Gen. 3; Ps. 51:5; Rom. 5:12-17; 2 Cor. 5:19, 20; Ps. 51:10; 1 John 4:7, 8, 11, 20; Gen. 2:15.)


​

I disagree with the idea that God restores the penitent.... I believe when Christ reconciled humans, it was for all of us just as Adam's fall doomed all of us, Christ simply restored all of us..... I am also pondering the choice thing... as in how much choice do we really have....

Does this mean that you believe that someone who hates God and turns away from Him will be restored regardless of their desire to not be restored into the image of their Maker? I'm not sure I follow you on this.

Of course, if you do believe that God haters are restored against their will, then I can see why you would ponder the relevance or reality of choice.

Why do you think that humans do not have freedom of choice? For me, the Bible counsels us to "choose you this day whom you will serve," and that informs my premise on freewill. But since you don't seem to accept the Bible as authoritative, do you have a foundation that would inform your ponderings as to freedom of choice?

 

[StormyOne]

Does this mean that you believe that someone who hates God and turns away from Him will be restored regardless of their desire to not be restored into the image of their Maker? I'm not sure I follow you on this.

Of course, if you do believe that God haters are restored against their will, then I can see why you would ponder the relevance or reality of choice.

Why do you think that humans do not have freedom of choice? For me, the Bible counsels us to "choose you this day whom you will serve," and that informs my premise on freewill. But since you don't seem to accept the Bible as authoritative, do you have a foundation that would inform your ponderings as to freedom of choice?

I don't know anyone who "hates" God.... I do believe that if a person has all the information about The Creator they will choose to turn towards him not away from him... Now the question is when/how will they get that info... I believe God reaches out to them and in time they will respond...

I don't think we have complete freedom of choice because we cannot act on all the thoughts we might have... If I believe the premise that man is fallen and sinful, then humans cannot choose to do what is right and then do it without a relapse... I think we are given areas in which we can make decisions, but not in all... as my friend asked, "would you hire a lifeguard whose philosophy is that he will allow swimmers to choose whether they want to be rescued or not?" Here are a couple of comments from friends I agree with regarding our "choice."

The choice we have been given has nothing to do with salvation. It only relates to the quality of our lives. The present human condition is the result of our choices.

God gave us choice; he did not give us choices. Our choices depend on the road we travel.

 

[Laodicean]

I don't know anyone who "hates" God.... I do believe that if a person has all the information about The Creator they will choose to turn towards him not away from him...

Well, Satan has all the information about the Creator because he lived with him in heaven, and yet he chose to turn away. But then, I guess you may not believe in the reality of Satan, so that has no bearing for you?

Now the question is when/how will they get that info... I believe God reaches out to them and in time they will respond...

And this belief is based on what, wishful thinking maybe? Or some source that would support your opinion? The Bible certainly tells us that not all will be saved. But since the Bible is not your source, I don't suppose that holds water with you?

I don't think we have complete freedom of choice because we cannot act on all the thoughts we might have... If I believe the premise that man is fallen and sinful, then humans cannot choose to do what is right and then do it without a relapse... I think we are given areas in which we can make decisions, but not in all... as my friend asked, "would you hire a lifeguard whose philosophy is that he will allow swimmers to choose whether they want to be rescued or not?" Here are a couple of comments from friends I agree with regarding our "choice."

This last is so thought provoking that I need to think on it some more before replying. Tomorrow, then....

 

[StormyOne]

Well, Satan has all the information about the Creator because he lived with him in heaven, and yet he chose to turn away. But then, I guess you may not believe in the reality of Satan, so that has no bearing for you?

Did he have all the info? What if (just throwing it out there) Lucifer is the prodigal's son?

And this belief is based on what, wishful thinking maybe? Or some source that would support your opinion? The Bible certainly tells us that not all will be saved. But since the Bible is not your source, I don't suppose that holds water with you?

The belief is based on the fact that as a parent I am always reaching out to my kids... whether they respond immediately or not... so if I being human can do that, how much more would the creator of all do the same.... The bible says nothing... and whoever wrote that would know that how? Who is greater, God or Satan? If God says he will save all, why would that be difficult to believe?

This last is so thought provoking that I need to think on it some more before replying. Tomorrow, then....

take your time...

 

[Laodicean]

Okay, I've been thinking on your post since last night. Let me try again.

I don't know anyone who "hates" God....

I do. I know of people who have taken a decided stand against God, and even when presented with what to them is a hypothetical, that God is a God of love and wants only their good, they will turn away and say they want no part of even such a God. Incomprehensible to me that they would continue to hate, even when shown the possibility that this God that they hate is a God who loves them. Is that what is meant by the "mystery of iniquity"? There is no reason for such alienation, and yet, there it is.

I do believe that if a person has all the information about The Creator they will choose to turn towards him not away from him... Now the question is when/how will they get that info... I believe God reaches out to them and in time they will respond...

And what is this belief based on, other than your preference or wishful thinking? How do you determine what is the reality?

I don't think we have complete freedom of choice because we cannot act on all the thoughts we might have...

Interesting perspective. Is it truly an inability to act on all the thoughts that cross our minds, though? Or is it a choice driven by fear of consequences? If so, then it is still a free choice, though maybe a reluctant one.

If I believe the premise that man is fallen and sinful, then humans cannot choose to do what is right and then do it without a relapse...

This is true...until...until we meet and accept Christ. Then the power to exercise choice in a different direction is received and can be maintained.

I think we are given areas in which we can make decisions, but not in all... as my friend asked, "would you hire a lifeguard whose philosophy is that he will allow swimmers to choose whether they want to be rescued or not?"

This is probably not the best analogy. A lifeguard jumps in and rescues a swimmer without inquiring as to the wishes of the swimmer, whether the swimmer wants to commit suicide or not. But God's role is not that of a lifeguard, not the way the Bible describes it. A better, though still poor analogy might be that of a bridge builder who has created a way out of a chasm of death, back to life, and now it is left up to the free choice of those who want to return to trusting Him for life. And the reason why it is left to free choice is because God wants us to trust Him and to follow Him out of love not coercion.

Here are a couple of comments from friends I agree with regarding our "choice."

The choice we have been given has nothing to do with salvation. It only relates to the quality of our lives. The present human condition is the result of our choices.
​

​

On what basis does your friend determine that our free will has nothing to do with salvation? What is his understanding of salvation that he thinks that free choice plays no part in it?

I do agree, though, that the present human condition is the result of our choices.

God gave us choice; he did not give us choices. Our choices depend on the road we travel.

​

I don't quite follow this one. What's the difference between choice and choices? Is your friend saying that once we make a choice on which road to travel, that our destination is predetermined and, therefore, all actions following the first choice are not freewill choices?

Of course, if by "the road we travel" your friend means the road to life and the road to death, then choice does indeed have to do with salvation.

But maybe that is not what your friend means at all. I don't have enough information to form conclusions.

 

[StormyOne]

Okay, I've been thinking on your post since last night. Let me try again.

I do. I know of people who have taken a decided stand against God, and even when presented with what to them is a hypothetical, that God is a God of love and wants only their good, they will turn away and say they want no part of even such a God. Incomprehensible to me that they would continue to hate, even when shown the possibility that this God that they hate is a God who loves them. Is that what is meant by the "mystery of iniquity"? There is no reason for such alienation, and yet, there it is.

Perhaps it is because they have not met God, they've only met those who say they are following God.... anyone who encounters God does I suspect revises what they think about God....

And what is this belief based on, other than your preference or wishful thinking? How do you determine what is the reality?

LOL... I detect some sarcasm here probably because you still have not wrapped your brain around the idea that one can have a set of beliefs of values and not use the bible as the undisputed foundation.... as for how I determine reality, how are you defining reality? I must ask given I've worked in the mental health field for eons....

Interesting perspective. Is it truly an inability to act on all the thoughts that cross our minds, though? Or is it a choice driven by fear of consequences? If so, then it is still a free choice, though maybe a reluctant one.

Yes it is an inability to act on our thoughts.... try this... decide that you will never "sin" again and let me know how that works out for ya...

This is true...until...until we meet and accept Christ. Then the power to exercise choice in a different direction is received and can be maintained.

This is probably not the best analogy. A lifeguard jumps in and rescues a swimmer without inquiring as to the wishes of the swimmer, whether the swimmer wants to commit suicide or not. But God's role is not that of a lifeguard, not the way the Bible describes it. A better, though still poor analogy might be that of a bridge builder who has created a way out of a chasm of death, back to life, and now it is left up to the free choice of those who want to return to trusting Him for life. And the reason why it is left to free choice is because God wants us to trust Him and to follow Him out of love not coercion.

Man was drowning, God saved... to me the analogy is fine.... what you are attempting to do is change the parameters to fit the dogma you believe in regarding salvation...

On what basis does your friend determine that our free will has nothing to do with salvation? What is his understanding of salvation that he thinks that free choice plays no part in it?

I do agree, though, that the present human condition is the result of our choices.

When my friend decides to enter the conversation they will explain their views...

I don't quite follow this one. What's the difference between choice and choices? Is your friend saying that once we make a choice on which road to travel, that our destination is predetermined and, therefore, all actions following the first choice are not freewill choices?

Of course, if by "the road we travel" your friend means the road to life and the road to death, then choice does indeed have to do with salvation.

But maybe that is not what your friend means at all. I don't have enough information to form conclusions.

keep pondering this....

 

[sentipente]

It would help a great deal if we paid more attention to what we think we know for sure. If Moses said God said something you don't know that God said it. And Moses does not have to lie to say God said something that God did not.

 

[sentipente]

This is probably not the best analogy. A lifeguard jumps in and rescues a swimmer without inquiring as to the wishes of the swimmer, whether the swimmer wants to commit suicide or not. But God's role is not that of a lifeguard, not the way the Bible describes it. A better, though still poor analogy might be that of a bridge builder who has created a way out of a chasm of death, back to life, and now it is left up to the free choice of those who want to return to trusting Him for life. And the reason why it is left to free choice is because God wants us to trust Him and to follow Him out of love not coercion.

​

On what basis does your friend determine that our free will has nothing to do with salvation? What is his understanding of salvation that he thinks that free choice plays no part in it?

Do you have any citation that shows where humans asked to be saved? I think you are confusing being lost with being in rebellion. To be lost is to be in a place where one does not want to be. Everyone who is lost wants to be saved. This is why search parties are sent out the moment somebody is known to be lost. They do not wait for the lost person to call. God is not a bridge builder. He is not the broker of Salvation. He is the Savior. Don't diminish Him.

 

[Laodicean]

​

Perhaps it is because they have not met God, they've only met those who say they are following God.... anyone who encounters God does I suspect revises what they think about God....

The Israelites met God in an awesome revelation at Sinai, and in spite of that encounter, they repeatedly turned away from Him.

The Pharisees encountered God and did not revise what they thought about God.

Lucifer knew God personally, yet turned away from Him.

It's a nice thought that, as long as a person meets God, he/she will automatically want to be in relationship with Him. That, however, is not the reality, not from Biblical history.

Sin does something to the mind so that it twists the mind away from life and turns it in on itself, where there is only death.


Originally Posted by Laodicean

And what is this belief based on, other than your preference or wishful thinking? How do you determine what is the reality?
​

LOL... I detect some sarcasm here

No, Stormy, no sarcasm intended. That's the problem with the written form. The tone is missing. I didn't mean "preference" or "wishful thinking" to be sarcastic. It was a serious question.

probably because you still have not wrapped your brain around the idea that one can have a set of beliefs of values and not use the bible as the undisputed foundation.... as for how I determine reality, how are you defining reality? I must ask given I've worked in the mental health field for eons....

There is reality in the physical world and reality in the mental world.

I define physical reality as the way the world actually is rather than as you might want it to be. It is perceived by a majority opinion or consensus that agrees that, for instance, certain wavelengths of light will be called red, not blue, and that wavelength is consistently recognized as red by the majority.

I define mental reality as measured by a common understanding of the meaning of words. This allows a reasoning process to take place that builds on a foundation that is supported by facts. Facts are the physical realities that are the building blocks of mental realities.


Originally Posted by Laodicean

Interesting perspective. Is it truly an inability to act on all the thoughts that cross our minds, though? Or is it a choice driven by fear of consequences? If so, then it is still a free choice, though maybe a reluctant one.
​

Yes it is an inability to act on our thoughts.... try this... decide that you will never "sin" again and let me know how that works out for ya...

oh, you mean that kind of inability to act on our thoughts. My mistake.

I guess it depends on the thought, whether we can act or not. We can think, without preparation, "I shall make a billion dollars in the next half hour." Not going to happen...unless we have built a pathway to that point.

Or we can think "I will never sin again." Not going to happen...unless we have learned to abide in Jesus on a consistent basis. That, of course, is a growing experience.

So, no, I don't think that we are unable to act on our thoughts. So long as they are thoughts based in reality, we can act on them. And in Jesus, we can truly say that we have free choice in anything. For "With God nothing is impossible." Luke 1:37.

Man was drowning, God saved... to me the analogy is fine.... what you are attempting to do is change the parameters to fit the dogma you believe in regarding salvation...

I would be tempted to call "sarcasm" with your use of the word "dogma," but since I can't hear your tone, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you sincerely believe that I am holding to religious doctrine as true, but without proof. I submit that that is not the case. I can support my religious doctrine with facts. I am asking you what facts support your position. If you have none, other than opinions, then your beliefs are mere dogma -- I say this, not in sarcasm, but in all sincerity.

[delete quotes from friends since they are not here to speak for themselves.]

 

[Laodicean]

It would help a great deal if we paid more attention to what we think we know for sure. If Moses said God said something you don't know that God said it. And Moses does not have to lie to say God said something that God did not.

There's a balance to everything.

 

[Laodicean]

Do you have any citation that shows where humans asked to be saved?

"Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake." Psalms 6:4

"Make thy face to shine upon thy servant: save me for thy mercies' sake." Psalms 31:16

"As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me." Psalms 55:16

"Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou [art] my praise." Jeremiah 17:14

I'm not sure what point you are making with this request, though. Care to explain?

I think you are confusing being lost with being in rebellion.

Not really. There are the lost -- all of mankind. And there are the rebellious -- those of mankind who do not want to be found. Believe it or not, such people do exist. I've met them.

To be lost is to be in a place where one does not want to be. Everyone who is lost wants to be saved. This is why search parties are sent out the moment somebody is known to be lost. They do not wait for the lost person to call.

And Jesus was the search party sent out to save lost mankind. But here your analogy breaks down. In the realm of sin, there are those, when the search party arrives, who do not want to be found or saved. Go figure.

God is not a bridge builder.

why do you think He is not? God is everything good. Is bridge building bad?

He is not the broker of Salvation. He is the Savior. Don't diminish Him.

I would never dream of diminishing Him, Senti.

 

[StormyOne]

Lao, we have a dilemma, while the discussion regarding man being lost or in rebellion, what reality is, and what authority we us as a foundation for our beliefs is interesting, we might be straying far afield from the reviewing of the 28 fundies... so what do you want to do? Start a new thread about the topics mentioned above so we can stick to the 28 fundies review, or explore the tangents until we tire, then go to the next fundamental in line?

 

[Laodicean]

Lao, we have a dilemma, while the discussion regarding man being lost or in rebellion, what reality is, and what authority we us as a foundation for our beliefs is interesting, we might be straying far afield from the reviewing of the 28 fundies... so what do you want to do? Start a new thread about the topics mentioned above so we can stick to the 28 fundies review, or explore the tangents until we tire, then go to the next fundamental in line?

Yeah, you're right, Stormy. We are straying. I guess we should stick to the 28 fundamentals for this thread, if I had my druthers. But it's really up to you. You are in charge. I'll know what you decide by your next post.

 

[StormyOne]

Yeah, you're right, Stormy. We are straying. I guess we should stick to the 28 fundamentals for this thread, if I had my druthers. But it's really up to you. You are in charge. I'll know what you decide by your next post.

I'll pull the your response before last, make a new thread and then we can continue discussing the fundamentals here....

 

[sentipente]

"Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake." Psalms 6:4

"Make thy face to shine upon thy servant: save me for thy mercies' sake." Psalms 31:16

"As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me." Psalms 55:16

"Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou [art] my praise." Jeremiah 17:14

I'm not sure what point you are making with this request, though. Care to explain?

Those passages were written by David and Jeremiah. They were never the representatives of the human race and they wrote millenia after God had already put his plan of salvation into action. My point is that man never asked to be saved, meaning that they did not want to be saved. It counters your claim that God surrenders to human will.

Not really. There are the lost -- all of mankind. And there are the rebellious -- those of mankind who do not want to be found. Believe it or not, such people do exist. I've met them.



And Jesus was the search party sent out to save lost mankind. But here your analogy breaks down. In the realm of sin, there are those, when the search party arrives, who do not want to be found or saved. Go figure.



why do you think He is not? God is everything good. Is bridge building bad?



I would never dream of diminishing Him, Senti.

You have rewritten history to fit your views. According to you, you know those who aer lost and those who are in rebellion. You must know how to reas minds. If that is the case I am out of my element.